Air India Flight AI171 (Boeing 787-8) Crash

[Just a civilian pilot]

I used to live and fly for an airline in the Caribbean.

Your a god if you are a pilot and more so if a Captain wearing a uniform.

I never lined up for anything but that was 30 years ago.

I still never got a free lunch though.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

I think he’s asked to get into airport lounges where there’s food. But normally he would cover up his uniform.

I bring my own food , but I do long turns.

 

[Astro14]

I think he’s asked to get into airport lounges where there’s food. But normally he would cover up his uniform.

Uniforms are not allowed in airport lounges - so, folks cover them up. There are a lot of pilots who have club/lounge membership and put a fleece/pullover/jacket over their uniform to exercise their access to the lounge.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

It wasn’t caused by the flaps but this topic came up at work the other day.

A320 alpha lock protection:

This function inhibits slat retraction at high angles-of-attack and low speeds.
The SFCCs use corrected angle-of-attack (alpha) or airspeed information from the ADIRUs to
inhibit slat retraction.
When the FLAPS lever is set to 0, the slats alpha/speed lock function activates and inhibits slats
retraction, if:
‐ The AOA is above 8.0 °, or
‐ The speed is less than 165 kt.

 

[y_p_w]

Uniforms are not allowed in airport lounges - so, folks cover them up. There are a lot of pilots who have club/lounge membership and put a fleece/pullover/jacket over their uniform to exercise their access to the lounge.

I guess I remembered incorrectly. It was one or the other, so it was probably hiding his uniform. But the deal is he’s got a thing for not having to pay for food.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

I guess I remembered incorrectly. It was one or the other, so it was probably hiding his uniform. But the deal is he’s got a thing for not having to pay for food.

How do you know that about him?

 

[y_p_w]

How do you know that about him?

Watched his content. He talks a lot about complimentary hotel breakfasts and getting into airport lounges. Found the one where he talks about both, and yeah he wearing a jacket to get INTO an airport lounge. My (faulty) memory was that maybe he was putting on his uniform to see if they would let him in, but it was that he had access but couldn't be there in uniform.

But the description is "There is very little I WON'T do to get my free breakfast."

​

​

I at least wanted to get free breakfast out of this thing. Can get there before the van leaves as long as we land on time but if there's any delay then I'm delaying 400 people. So it's going to be a little interesting​

So this brings up the next logical question Kelsey. Why are you wearing a jacket in Miami when it's super hot outside.​

​

Well, here's the thing I have access to one of the lounges at American, and that lounge doesn't let you go in as a pilot. So I'm gonna have to clear the security line as a pilot so I have to look pilot enough to get through that line and then not pilot enough to get into that lounge where the free breakfast is. This jacket gives me the blend of both.​

​

Step One is complete.We don't have a lot of time until we make it to the flight trains here. All right we got to get to D15. See right now it's pilot, not pilot .I don't know how good the breakfast is going to be in here. All that matters is that better than peanuts, Overnight oats fruit well here we go sit. It's quiet come on over here. OK, operation free breakfast is complete.​

​

My Airline would understand if the flight is delayed because of somebody else, or there's a maintenance. But they have a hard time explaining to them that the reason that I missed my flight was because I was busy shoving my face with free breakfast so I eat this quickly and get over the gate.​

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Fair enough, he admitted it.

I can’t stand people who try to be a somebody or be cool.

I guess I better get a pair of shades and upgrade my car if I want to be a cool airline pilot.

Unfortunately, how popular YT channels are depends on the cool factor too often.

 

[y_p_w]

Fair enough, he admitted it.

I can’t stand people who try to be a somebody or be cool.

I guess I better get a pair of shades and upgrade my car if I want to be a cool airline pilot.

Unfortunately, how popular YT channels are depends on the cool factor too often.

Part of his niche is "day in the life of a pilot". I think his persona is not "cool airline pilot" but "ordinary guy lucky enough to do this for a living". Getting to the airport on time is something most people can understand, as well as getting something to eat. I think he's very relatable to most people.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Part of his niche is "day in the life of a pilot". I think his persona is not "cool airline pilot" but "ordinary guy lucky enough to do this for a living". Getting to the airport on time is something most people can understand, as well as getting something to eat. I think he's very relatable to most people.

Most pilot's don't behave that way.

He is trying hard to be cool IMHO.

If I was flying with an FO who had a YT channel, I would warn them to not be addicted to their phone when flying with me.

 

[JimPghPA]

There's a yt video wherein a pilot suggest that the Air India flight had a duel hydraulic failure soon into gear retraction, resulting in loss of fuel-pumps, that resulted in loss of pressure in fuel-lines, that allowed hot fuel in hot fuel-lines to vaporize, causing vapor-lock and starving the engines of fuel.

A very long cascade of failures.

And again, this is still speculation.

--------------------

I can see a new item being added to checklist now. If temperature of fuel is above X degrees, and / or temperature of fuel lines may be above X degrees, disable fuel pumps, run engines at full power for 2 minutes and look for loss of power from vaporized fuel in fuel lines. If vaporizing of fuel is suggested by performance and / or other means, cancel the flight.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

There's a yt video wherein a pilot suggest that the Air India flight had a duel hydraulic failure soon into gear retraction, resulting in loss of fuel-pumps, that resulted in loss of pressure in fuel-lines, that allowed hot fuel in hot fuel-lines to vaporize, causing vapor-lock and starving the engines of fuel.

A very long cascade of failures.

And again, this is still speculation.

--------------------

I can see a new item being added to checklist now. If temperature of fuel is above X degrees, and / or temperature of fuel lines may be above X degrees, disable fuel pumps, run engines at full power for 2 minutes and look for loss of power from vaporized fuel in fuel lines. If vaporizing of fuel is suggested by performance and / or other means, cancel the flight.

Sounds crazy to me.

On the A320, if you lost both engines ( birds ) , you would also suffer a dual hydraulic failure and it would have nothing to do with fuel temperature. The RAT would also drop out and the gear wouldn’t be able to be retracted because the RAT wouldn’t supply enough hydraulic pressure.

Every plane has a max ( and min ) fuel temperature in the limitations section and modem planes will alert pilots if the temperature gets too high.

 

[JimPghPA]

Sounds crazy to me.

Now days, modern passenger jet accidents are extremely rare but usually caused by at least two major failures. And Air India is not knows to have the best maintance of all airlines in existence.

Redundant systems loose value if not properly maintained.

And again, all of this is STILL SPECULATION.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Now days, modern passenger jet accidents are extremely rare but usually caused by at least two major failures. And Air India is not knows to have the best maintance of all airlines in existence.

Redundant systems loose value if not properly maintained.

And again, all of this is STILL SPECULATION.

Then there would be no requirement to add new procedures if the problem was caused by bad maintenance if it turns out to be the cause.

Fix the maintenance problems.

 

[JimPghPA]

The point of the above speculation, is that when fuel pumps pressurize fuel-lines, the risk of vapor-lock is drastically reduced. And when those pumps shutdown the risk of vapor-lock increases, and especially when fuel and / or fuel-lines are hot.

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

It was mentioned earlier that the engines (at least on JACPs aircraft) can be gravity fed from the wing tanks when pumps fail, I imagine the 787 is the same?

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

The point of the above speculation, is that when fuel pumps pressurize fuel-lines, the risk of vapor-lock is drastically reduced. And when those pumps shutdown the risk of vapor-lock increases, and especially when fuel and / or fuel-lines are hot.

The chances of losing both hydraulic systems at the same time is extremely rare and I can’t see how they would cause problems with the fuel pumps.

I could take off with the fuel pumps off on the A320 in 110 Fahrenheit and the engines would run perfectly fine……until above engine gravity feed ceiling ( 15,000 ) and air bubbles would increase the chance of engines flaming out becuase the fuel pumps were not turned on.

The engines would flame out because of cavitation, not because of a Vapor lock due to high fuel temperature.

We can’t take off if the fuel temperature exceeded a limitation.

Who told you this?

https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/app/.../archives/fuel-pumps-left-in-off-position.pdf

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

It was mentioned earlier that the engines (at least on JACPs aircraft) can be gravity fed from the wing tanks when pumps fail, I imagine the 787 is the same?

A320 max gravity feed ceiling is 15,000 feet ( if you lost both fuel pumps ) after take off.

If you lose both above 15,000 climbing, unless you reached above 30,000, you need to descend all the way back down to 15,000 because the fuel might still have air bubbles but if they failed above 30,000 and you were above 30,000 for at least 30 minutes, then it’s safe to remain at that altitude the entire flight. If you got above 30,000 for less than 30 minutes, max gravity feed is 30,000 feet.

Unrealistic stuff you see in the sim and pilots get failed ( partly because the Airbus checklist is not well written ) for in the sim.

That said, it’s your job to review the checklists to make sure you fully understand them or ask flight ops for clarification before being confused the day you actually require the use of the checklist.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

There's a yt video wherein a pilot suggest that the Air India flight had a duel hydraulic failure soon into gear retraction, resulting in loss of fuel-pumps, that resulted in loss of pressure in fuel-lines, that allowed hot fuel in hot fuel-lines to vaporize, causing vapor-lock and starving the engines of fuel.

A very long cascade of failures.

And again, this is still speculation.

--------------------

I can see a new item being added to checklist now. If temperature of fuel is above X degrees, and / or temperature of fuel lines may be above X degrees, disable fuel pumps, run engines at full power for 2 minutes and look for loss of power from vaporized fuel in fuel lines. If vaporizing of fuel is suggested by performance and / or other means, cancel the flight.

This must be the video you are talking about.

I am only posting it because it’s relevant to your post. Please delete if its not allowed.

More later about it. Heading out for a few hours.

I could get in the A320 in the afternoon after sitting all night/morning in the hot desert sun and forget to turn the fuel pumps on and nothing would cause both engines to vapor lock even if the cabin was 150 degrees all day.

Losing hydraulics has nothing to do with fuel pumps.

We cannot take off on centre tanks ( start feeding at slat retraction ) for safety reasons on the Airbus. Regulations require each engine to be fed by a separate tank on take off and I bet it’s the same on the B787 which would mean it doesn’t matter how hot cabin is because the fuel is coming from the wing tanks on take off.

I do not fully understand the B787 systems but there are similarities between different aircraft often.

 

[wwillson]

This is the 787 throttle quadrant. The gear lever is located completely on the opposite side from where the flaps are. Also, the gear lever handle is ROUND, and the flap lever is SQUARE, and located right next to the right seater.

I'm not saying that it couldn't happen. But given the location of both controls, not to mention their size and shape, it think that it is highly unlikely.

I don't know why anyone would be moving the throttles at this point. Advance the throttles at the beginning of the takeoff run, then hit the auto throttles button to set power at the preprogrammed thrust level. There would be no reason to push or pull the throttles, so it would be pretty hard to mistake the flaps for throttles.