Ahhh ... yes. Like privacy? Delete Google from your life and thank you again Apple

[OVERKILL]

You are entitled to your thoughts, ideas and feelings about the honorable google.
Lets be clear though, they are your "feelings" not facts, but your are defending google portraying those feelings as facts, you have no idea how, what and why of google. But at least you understand, you allow them to use your data for profit, which is their business model. I am glad you trust them and everyone they sell/share your data with.
Just respect those who rather pay for what they get. IN this case, a company, giant corporation who's business model is turning your information into profits. Its all good but lets just be honest about it. laughable to defend a corporation as being honorable about handling your information that you allow to be collected when that is how they make money in order to give you "free stuff".

"Google, like Facebook, has a business model that's built on surveillance. The company's stated mission of "organizing the world's information" also includes capturing as much as possible of your information. That information is the base layer of some undeniably useful services, which in turn fuel the advertising that makes up the overwhelming majority of Google's revenue."
(from some of the above links)

The problem with your post is you call people names, an "alarmist" when you even admit googles surveillance activity but you know the corporation is so upstanding and great, its ok that they have your profiles and information in order to give you free stuff.
Its a typical attack on people who expose it or disagree with those polices, in your attempt to justify what you even admit is true. You are not the holy grail of the how, what and why google. But I can see you have an understanding my only problem is you sound like someone who wants the world to do as you see it vs another in here who, from his posts, is clueless about how google works.

Leave out the derogatory comments about other people who do not like corporations building profiles on them otherwise you sound childish and not that knowledgeable.

I have the resources to pay for equipment from this company. Ha... imagine anyone from google or alphabet making this speech *LOL* they would go out of business...but this company Apple, is built on a privacy methodology.

Tim Cook warns of ‘data-industrial complex’ in call for comprehensive US privacy laws

‘Our own information is being weaponized against us with military efficiency’

www.theverge.com

His comment wasn't derogatory, FWIW. He said your handle was apt (which it is) due to the alarmist nature of your posts in this thread, which is also an accurate description. Being labelled as "alarmist" is no different than being called "quirky" or "eccentric", it's a label that applies to a certain type of behaviour; a description if you will. There's no need to take offence to it.

That said, your post here is in rather poor taste and reminds me of some of the exchanges you and I have had in the past. You are having a discussion with somebody who works in IT security and is guaranteed to have a better handle on this subject than you do. The fact that his position differs from yours, that of an admitted layman, should cause you to take pause and ask questions, rather than being dismissive and condescending because it strays from the narrative you've chosen to push.

You would find these exchanges going far better if you were more willing to participate in actual debate on these subjects rather than just posting it up and then choosing your initial position as the hill to die on. The same happened in your exchange about the M1 with @bunnspecial, which was quite unfortunate.

I highly encourage you to partake in some introspection about how you approach discussions on your topics of interest. If you can refrain from these knee-jerk "takes" that betray a misunderstanding of not only the material but the expertise of those you are conversing with, it would go a long way in improving your knowledge and your understanding and providing that much needed nuance that you clearly lack when it comes to this type of subject matter, as @Brons2 noted.

 

[alarmguy]

“His comment wasn't derogatory, FWIW. He said your handle was apt (which it is) due to the alarmist nature of your posts in this thread, which is also an accurate description. Being labelled as "alarmist" is no different than being called "quirky" or "eccentric", it's a label that applies to a certain type of behaviour; a description if you will. There's no need to take offence to it.

That said, your post here is in rather poor taste and reminds me of some of the exchanges you and I have had in the past…..”

Ahhh.. the etiquette police?
What I remind you of has no bearing on my post anymore then what I think of your reply of which I think is in poor taste nor anything to do with the subject.

 

[OVERKILL]

Ahhh.. the etiquette police?
What I remind you of has no bearing on my post anymore then what I think of your reply of which I think is in poor taste nor anything to do with the subject.

Ahhh, you've taken the "I'm going to get offended" route rather than deal with the substance of the material I've presented, which included the expertise of the member you were addressing, which is entirely germane to the subject at hand.

The ball is in your court. You can turn this into one of the previous disasters where you choose to shrug off all information that doesn't align with your narrative, OR, you can choose to consider the validity and substance of the information presented by others, many of which are far more knowledgable on these matters than you are, and make it productive. You are far too quick to pull the trigger on snooty and ignorant remarks towards others, but then get your panties all wadded up when they don't cower and immediately fall in-line with the direction you want the discussion to go.

 

[alarmguy]

The problem is you present your opinion as sacrosanct and others' opinions as uninformed. Speaking purely for myself, that is not the case. I have to weigh the pros and cons of securing a large network every day. There are information risk management matrices that I have to supply to IT management, organizational executive management and auditors frequently. If I evaluated these risks poorly, I would probably not have a job, or at least not at the level that I do.

I make similar decisions on information flows in and out of my household. You want to make different decisions, fine, but don't go portraying yourself as the end all be all of privacy.

And calling the access I provide to Google "prostituting my family" well you're over the line there bud. I reported the post for this. The rest of it is fine, but not that part.

I think my post was intended to relay everyone has a right to make a choice of how their information is used and handled in exchange for free services.

Many Americans have no idea nor care to find out exactly what they give up for these services and that’s ok too but there is a large and growing segment that has been more vocal once they do understand what is going on, Europe is at the forefront but is making its way to our shores, one just need look at all the “cookie” disclosures we are now forced to click on. Or Apples anti tracking across website in Safari.

I do apologize for the poor choice of words "prostituting my family" and meant strictly in regards to information… Obviously you are much more informed then the general public and educated as far as the balance of what you will allow.

Many of my comments are based on real world experience working in the past with American families on their cell phones and home computers from that then into real world conversations with people when they came into the financial institution I worked in, seeking help after a bank account was hacked by falling for a scam to much more involved scam selling a home which later turned out they didn’t own anymore. Talk about a legal mess missed by the attorneys and title company.

You and many others are not the general public so my reply might have been over the top when I took personally being referred to as “alarmest” in my own thread.
I just try to convey to ordinary people simple steps that MAY help prevent them from becoming a victim. We all know there is no such thing as absolute.

I actually care about people … and might have been a little “scarred” seeing peoples bank accounts hacked (even though over time it gets rectified it’s a horrible thing to go through) to a family losing title to a very expensive home, that they sold but didn’t know they no longer owned it when they put it up for sale and sold it. Last I know is still being litigated.

 

[OVERKILL]

I think my post was intended to relay everyone has a right to make a choice of how their information is used and handled in exchange for free services.

Many Americans have no idea nor care to find out exactly what they give up for these services and that’s ok too but there is a large and growing segment that has been more vocal once they do understand what is going on, Europe is at the forefront but is making its way to our shores, one just need look at all the “cookie” disclosures we are now forced to click on. Or Apples anti tracking across website in Safari.

I do apologize for the poor choice of words "prostituting my family" and meant strictly in regards to information… Obviously you are much more informed then the general public and educated as far as the balance of what you will allow.

Many of my comments are based on real world experience working in the past with American families on their cell phones and home computers from that then into real world conversations with people when they came into the financial institution I worked in, seeking help after a bank account was hacked by falling for a scam to much more involved scam selling a home which later turned out they didn’t own anymore. Talk about a legal mess missed by the attorneys and title company.

You and many others are not the general public so my reply might have been over the top when I took personally being referred to as “alarmest” in my own thread.
I just try to convey to ordinary people simple steps that MAY help prevent them from becoming a victim. We all know there is no such thing as absolute.

I actually care about people … and might have been a little “scarred” seeing peoples bank accounts hacked (even though over time it gets rectified it’s a horrible thing to go through) to a family losing title to a very expensive home, that they sold but didn’t know they no longer owned it when they put it up for sale and sold it. Last I know is still being litigated.

Thank you for taking the effort, it's appreciated. Hopefully he will respond in kind and this can foster some productive dialogue on the subject.

 

[Brons2]

You are having a discussion with somebody who works in IT security and is guaranteed to have a better handle on this subject than you do.

I never want to get too arrogant or smug about what I know or don't know. There are very smart criminals in the world who are working hard to get ahead of your defenses, and I don't want to catch myself thinking I've invented a better mousetrap, because I haven't. You start thinking you're hot stuff in the security game, next thing you know, you're out on the meal line.

Thankfully, there's a lot of low hanging fruit out there, and a lot of the bad stuff is predicated on folks not patching their systems. As I'm sure you know, security is a process, not a product, and having a strong software currency program and software lifecycle management program will pay dividends over the long haul.

 

[JHZR2]

You need to be concerned. Big brother is watching you.

Apple to scan U.S. iPhones for images of child sexual abuse

Apple is planning to scan U.S. iPhones for images of child sexual abuse, drawing applause from child protection groups but raising concern among some security researchers that the system could be misused by governments looking to surveil their citizens.

apnews.com

I was thinking that. I’m a fan of the Apple devices, have been for 30+ years, and I’m an 80’s baby…. But my first thought was - they want to scan your pictures in the interest of somebody else’s safety, and, want to load your emails on their server to driver to you without tracking… so don’t they just get the upper hand with the data??

 

[OVERKILL]

I never want to get too arrogant or smug about what I know or don't know. There are very smart criminals in the world who are working hard to get ahead of your defenses, and I don't want to catch myself thinking I've invented a better mousetrap, because I haven't. You start thinking you're hot stuff in the security game, next thing you know, you're out on the meal line.

Absolutely. The moment you start thinking you know everything, you should probably hang-up your hat because you are a liability. Security is a constantly evolving field, making it equal parts fascinating and frustrating.

Thankfully, there's a lot of low hanging fruit out there, and a lot of the bad stuff is predicated on folks not patching their systems. As I'm sure you know, security is a process, not a product, and having a strong software currency program and software lifecycle management program will pay dividends over the long haul.

Agreed completely. Things like MFA are making things better as well, that's a huge improvement. It's not fail-safe, but nothing is. What's still surprising is hearing about a breach and then later learning they were running outdated systems, often exposed to the internet. The user is also most often the weakest link and eduction on that front can pay dividends.

 

[4WD]

Anyone here old enough to remember Spy vs Spy ?

 

[daves87rs]

While I find this interesting, I feel like we have know this for many, many years. No one gets anything for free. The bigger question is how much they get in return….

And I find if you really value something, don’t put it on the interwebs. (Even phones with WiFi) A good friend of mine is a well paid hacker. If someone wants your info bad enough, they will get it. End of story. Even these add ons are not going to stop everyone……

 

[wag123]

I was thinking that. I’m a fan of the Apple devices, have been for 30+ years, and I’m an 80’s baby…. But my first thought was - they want to scan your pictures in the interest of somebody else’s safety, and, want to load your emails on their server to driver to you without tracking… so don’t they just get the upper hand with the data??

"don’t they just get the upper hand with the data??"
I'm not following you on this JHZR2. Please explain.

 

[alarmguy]

I was thinking that. I’m a fan of the Apple devices, have been for 30+ years, and I’m an 80’s baby…. But my first thought was - they want to scan your pictures in the interest of somebody else’s safety, and, want to load your emails on their server to driver to you without tracking… so don’t they just get the upper hand with the data??

Im not thrilled about the whole thing either, not sure of the science involved (and didnt care to read it) being stated that is it so specific it just looks for child porn. Things always start out that way, a noble cause then you just hope we dont end up as invasive as google or FB or abused in some way by hackers, government, ect. We all know its a slippery slope.

After re-reading the story I see I Was wrong about scanning taking place only on Apples servers? not individual devices but if I am reading correct even your privately owned devices will be scanned, after reading the story now, Im not happy about it.

Then I read other stories ( https://www.idropnews.com/news/it-t...loud-photos-for-csam-only-icloud-mail/166129/ ) they still state your private phone is still your domain, the new software will only scan should you decide to upload it to apple servers or wherever, if that is the case, well then you do have a choice not to store in iCloud or send the images out anyplace. This article I believe is the full explanation.
No Apple device is scanned for anything, however once you send an image, the image is scanned for child porn. Its a noble cause yet if I am reading this correctly Im disappointed in Apple in the sense that I am good with them scanning iCloud and whatever servers and data centers they own for child porn. (google has been doing it for 13 years) But loading their scanning software onto private devices opens the door to abuse by hackers, roque governments, your own government?
Then how in the "trust" factor, who is "minding the store" making sure Apple and only Apple is doing what they say? Answer = I doubt anyone, now we have to trust another huge corporation with having access to our data. Which they kind of always had but now built into the system on your devices? Hmmmm ..

Ps. Im not sure Im following you either on the "upper hand with the data"

 

[bunnspecial]

The whole thing with the child porn scanning is concerning to me as well, and that's from someone who's had a deep trust of Apple security for a while.

On the surface, it's a noble goal and it's in the category of "who doesn't want to catch people distributing child porn?" Still, though, the implications scare me.

I'm not a computer scientist, so take my explanation and understanding with a grain of salt, but here's my understanding.

Basically every photo on your device gets encrypted into a "hash"(string of characters) that then gets uploaded to Apple's servers and compared against known child porn.

In theory, each photo has a unique hash, but because even things like changing the resolution of the photo can introduce artifacts that produce a different hash, the database can't work on "exact matches" but rather on "close" matches.

I've read one article on the internet with someone showing examples from a similar(albeit probably much less sophisticated) tool they use to scan the internet for unauthorized distribution of copyright photos. They showed two images that actually generated a "match" with their system(again, same principle as Apple's, although probably less sophisticated) that were actually quite different. One was a person, the other a plant. What made them "match" was the overall composition, color of the flowers and person's clothing, and color of the background.

Even with really restrictive and much better tools, though, there are likely trillions of photos in iCloud, and I'd guess billions uploaded on a daily basis. When you're scanning that many photos, you're GOING to get a lot of positive matches. That's inevitable-AI and machine learning are really good, but far from perfect.

What then gets worrying is what has to happen on those positive matches. Are they really the same image? Guess how that's determined-manual review. In reality, I doubt anyone has the resources to manually review all of those, and it probably wouldn't happen unless you were already a suspect, but still, the manual review has bigger implications for me.

Whether or not they DO manually review, it means that the capability then exists to access a supposedly "encrypted" photo for human eyes to view.

In 2021, for a lot of people, phones frankly are an extension of their life. Their iPhone camera roll(or other things) documents their life. I'm a "millennial" and I think I fall into that trap less than some of my peers, but it happens to me in some other ways.

In the short term, too, let's say your significant other sends you a "naughty" photo. That's a bad idea for a lot of reasons, but none the less it's something that's really common. Let's say too that just happens to be similar enough to known child porn that it generates a match. All of a sudden, your supposedly private, perfectly legal, and perhaps very intimate photo is on full display on someone's screen in Cupertino, or maybe elsewhere in the world if Apple outsources the labor to do this.

That, first of all, is something I'm NOT okay with, even though you won't find something on my phone that would remotely put me in that situation.

Beyond there, it's the whole slippery slope deal of, if they can access your photos for that reason, what are they going to look for next that they can now see?

 

[Pablo]

I trust companies will do the best thing for the bottom line. I don't trust the government one bit. Combine and extract as needed.

No matter how benign, the next gen, the next leader, the next congress, the next council will bend the will and the intent. It's not politics, it's the nature of man, especially humans in groups. It's just one of those immutable things in life.

 

[JHZR2]

"don’t they just get the upper hand with the data??"
I'm not following you on this JHZR2. Please explain.

So, Apple is looking at hashes or whatever (in reality potentially your photos). They actually also have the decryption capability for anything on iCloud as I understand it.

Then they use their intermediary servers to get your emails and re-serve the messages with whatever graphics, pixels, etc. just provided from them instead of the actual originator. So they’re seeing your emails, they’re seeing where the emails you get report back to, etc.

Im theory you’re paying (at least via the acquisition cost of the device) for Apple to get the data, serve it to you, and delete anything they know about it. I’m not so certain they don’t have the ability to further monetize the info they have on you, just the same as google or the email sender might be trying to.

So the question is if Apple will do anything with info they have to process in providing the service.

I remember years ago when many on here were swooning over Gmail and Google services with such trust, saying that Google claims they will do no harm. I’ve generally trusted Apple more, but when they have useful data, one must be mindful and careful all the same.

 

[wag123]

So, Apple is looking at hashes or whatever (in reality potentially your photos). They actually also have the decryption capability for anything on iCloud as I understand it.

Then they use their intermediary servers to get your emails and re-serve the messages with whatever graphics, pixels, etc. just provided from them instead of the actual originator. So they’re seeing your emails, they’re seeing where the emails you get report back to, etc.

Im theory you’re paying (at least via the acquisition cost of the device) for Apple to get the data, serve it to you, and delete anything they know about it. I’m not so certain they don’t have the ability to further monetize the info they have on you, just the same as google or the email sender might be trying to.

So the question is if Apple will do anything with info they have to process in providing the service.

I remember years ago when many on here were swooning over Gmail and Google services with such trust, saying that Google claims they will do no harm. I’ve generally trusted Apple more, but when they have useful data, one must be mindful and careful all the same.

Ahh, I get it now.
In reality, this sort of thing has been going on for years with not only Apple and Google but... Microsoft (especially since Windows 10 with the built-in spyware), Amazon (especially now with Alexa and Ring), Facebook, and most other technology companies. Most people don't really understand just how much of their security and privacy they are giving-up now days. I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned their monetizing the data that they are collecting. Like most things that companies are doing now days, it's all about the money.

 

[bunnspecial]

Ahh, I get it now.
In reality, this sort of thing has been going on for years with not only Apple and Google but... Microsoft (especially since Windows 10 with the built-in spyware), Amazon (especially now with Alexa and Ring), Facebook, and most other technology companies. Most people don't really understand just how much of their security and privacy they are giving-up now days. I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned their monetizing the data that they are collecting. Like most things that companies are doing now days, it's all about the money.

One of the things I've always thought of with Apple in this respect, though:

Google, Facebook, etc don't generally charge you to use their services. Google and Facebook in particular are some of the most ridiculously profitable companies in the world, and if they're not collecting revenue from their user base, where are they collecting it? The answer in a lot of cases is that the users, or really their data, are really the "product" they sell. I know it's a lot more complicated than that, and there are other revenue streams, and a lot of ways that data is anonymized so it's not that they're letting anyone who pays enough peek in your mailbox, but it's there.

There's a bit of a sense of security, whether or false or not, with Apple because the end user pays for Apple services. Yes, you can create an Apple ID for free, but a lot of service require Apple hardware(which you have to purchase) to access it. Even for things that don't require Apple hardware, you typically have some additional costs. iTunes music purchases and Apple Music along with the other Apple subscription services have recurring costs(and I have to mention too that it's really difficult now to actually get things set such that you can actually purchase something from the iTunes store rather than subscribe to Apple Music inadvertently). I know I pay a non-trivial amount for a lot of storage space in iCloud. Apple gets money from me precisely because I buy their hardware and pay for their services.

Apple is an insanely profitable company also, but from a consumer perspective it's easy to see the money flow. I think that gives many of us a false sense of security with Apple.

 

[techie2]

Privacy is only an illusion

I don't think people understand this.

 

[techie2]

For once I can keep a post short and will not answer this one )

For those who stand up for privacy = Click

____

Stop using mobile devices and anything connected to the internet.

Joe

 

[dishdude]

Stop using mobile devices and anything connected to the internet.

Joe

Great article, thanks for sharing, I especially liked these two sentences:

But Apple doesn’t target people who actually protect their privacy online as they know that no tech company can be trusted. Apple targets someone who knows nothing about online privacy and how tech companies collect data. And that someone is unfortunately most of the general public.