Advice for 2009 Ford Mustang GT (UOA Inside)

[gpshumway]

^^ Exactly. The primary purpose of a UOA is to determine if the oil is fit for further use. You can't really draw any conclusions about engine wear or condition unless something is really going wrong.

That said, your copper numbers were quite high and a substantial drop in those would be a good sign. Ditto for Iron.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: gpshumway
^^ Exactly. The primary purpose of a UOA is to determine if the oil is fit for further use. You can't really draw any conclusions about engine wear or condition unless something is really going wrong.

That said, your copper numbers were quite high and a substantial drop in those would be a good sign. Ditto for Iron.


FYI, as pointed out earlier, this engine's bearings have no copper in them. So it is likely leaching from a sealant used in the engine.

 

[gpshumway]

Hmm. For some reason I thought the little end was bronze in the mod motors. My mistake.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
You guys with those Mustangs need to quit running 5W-20 -- I don't care what Ford says. I've seen it time and time again in the UOA section. You're wearing those engines out with that thin oil. Those iron and copper numbers are through the roof. You might as well say piston ring numbers and bearing numbers because that's what they are. You keep wearing your bearings out and you're gonna eventually start losing oil pressure -- and then you're gonna start rapidly wearing the bearings out even faster. I'm speaking out on this issue because these engines are some of the best engines America puts out and I think it's a shame that these engines are getting premature wear when they don't have to be.


Finally. I have been saying this for years but I get the mantra of ford specifying 5w-20. What a joke on a rev happy motor. I swear by 5w-40 or 0w-40 for these engines.

 

[ThatGuyOverThere]

Originally Posted By: gpshumway
^^ Exactly. The primary purpose of a UOA is to determine if the oil is fit for further use. You can't really draw any conclusions about engine wear or condition unless something is really going wrong.

That said, your copper numbers were quite high and a substantial drop in those would be a good sign. Ditto for Iron.


So with that UOA, you would say I should switch to something else?

I think I'll try a 0w30. Would German Castrol be worth a try or should I go with Redline or Amsoil?

 

[gpshumway]

As others have stated before the 20wt vs 30wt in a mod motor debate has been done to death in the Ford community. Search the relevant forums for more info (and argument) than you can possibly stand. I'm on the side that says a mod motor which is run hard should use a 30wt. I have reliable information which I cant share to back that opinion.

As to which 30wt, the first thing to understand is there are basically two categories of 30wt oil, "light duty" identified by the API "Energy Conserving" specs and "heavy duty" identified by an ACEA A3 spec or more commonly listed as "High Mileage" oils (for older engines).

GC is a reasonably good choice, but it fits into the "heavy duty" 30wt category and may not be the best choice for your situation. Also, it's been surpassed today by the SN version of M1 0w40 which is actually thinner at cold temperatures than GC. If you were doing track days I'd say the M1 0w40 would be a good choice, but for your use a good light duty 30wt should be fine, especially in the winter.

For budget and availability reasons, I'd pick Mobil 1 0w30 Advanced Fuel Economy in the API SN version (SM is probably gone from the shelves any way). It's proven to be quite robust even in engines known to shear light duty 30wt oils down to 20wt like turbo Subarus.

If budget and availability is not a concern then any of the boutique oils are excellent. They have different strengths and weaknesses though. Cliff's notes:

Redline & Renewable Lube: Best for high temps and fuel dilution (track use).

Amsoil: Best for extended oil changes.

One minor concern is that none of the boutique oils carries formal API certification, which Ford could use as an excuse to deny warranty coverage in the event of an engine problem. Of course they could use the fact that you used 30wt oil as an excuse as well, so there's risk either way.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: Clevy


Finally. I have been saying this for years but I get the mantra of ford specifying 5w-20. What a joke on a rev happy motor. I swear by 5w-40 or 0w-40 for these engines.


Yeah, people say it but they never have much useful data to back it up. It's alway just a bunch of chest-pounding opinion.

If you can prove to me 5W20 is bad news, beyond the usual handful of (often misinterpreted) anecdotes, I'd be grateful for the lesson. So far nobody has been able to that. Show me the rash of failures using 5W20... from Ford, or anybody. Show me engine teardowns. Some long term engine tests. Something! Ford did all that and pronounced 5W20 viable. Millions of miles on engines built since the '90s further proves it. A few anecdotes don't change that.

I'll grant you, 5W20 does not fit all situations and there are exceptions to every viscosity rule. Some are documented in the Ford owners manual and some wise owners or their advisors may figure out a few more, but it's pretty clear that a thicker oil will not improve the life or operational characteristics of the vast majority of Ford engines spec'ed for 5W20. It may actually be detrimental to some.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen


Yeah, people say it but they never have much useful data to back it up. It's alway just a bunch of chest-pounding opinion.

If you can prove to me 5W20 is bad news, beyond the usual handful of (often misinterpreted) anecdotes, I'd be grateful for the lesson.


Sure, just take a look here: LINK

Oh, wait...that's shows just the opposite...

Funny thing is, some of those charts are from Modulars which have been torn down (NY cabs), and it shows pretty much no difference in bearing wear when comparing 2.6 hths oils to 3.0 hths oils. OTOH,the controlled experiments show more wear once hths rises above 2.6.

As you and others have said, the only way to really determine if a thicker oil is suitable in this application is to measure oil temp and pressure. I know from experience that it takes longer for oil to reach full operating temperature than one would think. I'd only use a thicker oil than specified if I had a good reason; so far I haven't really seen any good reasons.

Amsoil's 0W20 is a thick 20W, and after 1K miles, it's probably the same operational viscosity as most light 30W oils (since it doesn't seem to shear much in operation). If one wanted a "safety net" of a thicker oil, this would probably be a good choice. M1's 0W20 would probably be a good choice as well as it's thicker than he's currently using.

 

[Jim Allen]

Good points, JOD. I should have addressed the OP's POV, as you did, but got lost in my rant. I don't really have a "side" in the thick vs thin thing. I think the appropriate choice needs to be made according to the application and believe that, for the vast majority of recent Ford engines, Ford is correct in it's choice of 5W20.

JOD's advice is good. A robust, thick-in-it's grade 5W20 or a robust 0W30 will do nicely for you, That Guy. Is your sister "That Girl?"

 

[08_SHELBY]

I have a 2005 GT since new Nov. 04, w/ 4.6L & 100k miles on it. I have Used 5w20 since day one. My Engine uses no oil between changes. I have a Ford Racing intake and Brenspeed tune using Mostly Motorcraft syn blend and fl820 filter. I used some pure syn a few times when found on sale. These VVT engines like the 20w oil for sure and will make a little clicking sound when it idles hood up, that's normal don't be concerned. I usually change the oil @ around 4-5k miles. Ford warns against using wrong weight oil and I listen to them. My Shelby GT500 uses the 5w50 stuff. I only have 8k miles on it and no oil problems with it. That engine is a Beast! I have the JLT tune which puts the rwh over 500.
Personally I think you can run the 4.6L's hard on a 5w20 w/top notch syn oil but if you are abusing it severely I would put 5w30 in it.
Enjoy the car!

 

[ThatGuyOverThere]

Originally Posted By: gpshumway
As others have stated before the 20wt vs 30wt in a mod motor debate has been done to death in the Ford community. Search the relevant forums for more info (and argument) than you can possibly stand. I'm on the side that says a mod motor which is run hard should use a 30wt. I have reliable information which I cant share to back that opinion.


Thank you for your thorough response! I hear you on the warranty, I'll see what happens but I'm not too worried about it. As for Redline/Amsoil, I have no plans to ever do an extended OCI, I absolutely will change the oil by 5000 miles, 7500 miles at the longest (which is Ford's recommended OCI). In that case, should I just go with Redline? I've read it's got more esters than Amsoil--which isn't necessarily good but shrug.



Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Good points, JOD. I should have addressed the OP's POV, as you did, but got lost in my rant. I don't really have a "side" in the thick vs thin thing. I think the appropriate choice needs to be made according to the application and believe that, for the vast majority of recent Ford engines, Ford is correct in it's choice of 5W20.

JOD's advice is good. A robust, thick-in-it's grade 5W20 or a robust 0W30 will do nicely for you, That Guy. Is your sister "That Girl?"


Is there a reason I should go for 0W30 over 5W30? Unfortunately I don't have a sister. Otherwise, she probably would be that girl

Originally Posted By: 08_SHELBY
I have a 2005 GT since new Nov. 04, w/ 4.6L & 100k miles on it. I have Used 5w20 since day one. My Engine uses no oil between changes. I have a Ford Racing intake and Brenspeed tune using Mostly Motorcraft syn blend and fl820 filter. I used some pure syn a few times when found on sale. These VVT engines like the 20w oil for sure and will make a little clicking sound when it idles hood up, that's normal don't be concerned. I usually change the oil @ around 4-5k miles. Ford warns against using wrong weight oil and I listen to them. My Shelby GT500 uses the 5w50 stuff. I only have 8k miles on it and no oil problems with it. That engine is a Beast! I have the JLT tune which puts the rwh over 500.
Personally I think you can run the 4.6L's hard on a 5w20 w/top notch syn oil but if you are abusing it severely I would put 5w30 in it.
Enjoy the car!


Thank you! Good to know there's other Mustang owners on here. I don't doubt that the 5w20 will work like a champ but hey, better safe than sorry. I honestly beat the [censored] out of this engine and apparently I don't hit operating temperature as often as I thought...

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: ThatGuyOverThere

Is there a reason I should go for 0W30 over 5W30?


Sure. Until the oil is at full operating temperature, it's thicker than ideal. Viscosity is directly related to temperature. The 0W oils within the same category are generally thinner at start-up temperatures, so they're closer to the correct viscosity and they get their more quickly. So they're a benefit even during a cold start in 100 degree ambient temps. Still, you're best off to actually look at various oil's 40C cSt specs. And also keep in mind that many 0W30's are thicker start-up than most 5W20's.

I'd also worry a little less about the second number on the oil bottle and look more at the oil's composition and the hths spec. A GIII 0W30 with a hths of 3.0 compared to a PAO or ester-based 0W20 oil with a hths spec of 2.8 are going to end up being roughly the same "thickness" in use, but the 0W20 will flow better at start-up. So, a generic recommendation to "run a 30W" really doesn't tell you much, and may end up being counter-productive.

 

[ThatGuyOverThere]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: ThatGuyOverThere

Is there a reason I should go for 0W30 over 5W30?


Sure. Until the oil is at full operating temperature, it's thicker than ideal. Viscosity is directly related to temperature. The 0W oils within the same category are generally thinner at start-up temperatures, so they're closer to the correct viscosity and they get their more quickly. So they're a benefit even during a cold start in 100 degree ambient temps. Still, you're best off to actually look at various oil's 40C cSt specs. And also keep in mind that many 0W30's are thicker start-up than most 5W20's.

I'd also worry a little less about the second number on the oil bottle and look more at the oil's composition and the hths spec. A GIII 0W30 with a hths of 3.0 compared to a PAO or ester-based 0W20 oil with a hths spec of 2.8 are going to end up being roughly the same "thickness" in use, but the 0W20 will flow better at start-up. So, a generic recommendation to "run a 30W" really doesn't tell you much, and may end up being counter-productive.




Gotcha. Thanks for the info. I'm guessing I want a lower cSt number? I really don't understand the tech behind the oil. I'm just going to go with redline or amsoil at this point. Probably redline. Then I'll do a UOA and if it looks good, I'll just stick with it.

 

[Trajan]

Bought my 06 GT last April with @29K miles. As of this post, have @48.5K

Use nothing but the oil in the sig w/o any problem.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: ThatGuyOverThere


Gotcha. Thanks for the info. I'm guessing I want a lower cSt number? I really don't understand the tech behind the oil. I'm just going to go with redline or amsoil at this point. Probably redline. Then I'll do a UOA and if it looks good, I'll just stick with it.


Well, you want an hths spec that is fairly close to what's spec'd for the engine. The engine is designed to use a conventional 2.6, which in use will shear as low as 2.4 (roughly). Anything in that range is acceptable for wear. Both the Amsoil and RL 0W20's are 2.8, but will stay roughly that weight in use since they tend not to shear much at all. So, the end result is that both of those oils will be 8-15% thicker in use than what you're currently using. Personally, I wouldn't go thicker than that without a good reason, so if you're using one of those oils I'd go with the 0W20. If you're using a GIII, and you wanted to try a thicker oil, I'd look for something in the 2.7-3.0 range with the lowest 40C viscosity (Ultra 5W20, M1 0W20, M1 0W30 all come to mind).

 

[ThatGuyOverThere]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: ThatGuyOverThere


Gotcha. Thanks for the info. I'm guessing I want a lower cSt number? I really don't understand the tech behind the oil. I'm just going to go with redline or amsoil at this point. Probably redline. Then I'll do a UOA and if it looks good, I'll just stick with it.


Well, you want an hths spec that is fairly close to what's spec'd for the engine. The engine is designed to use a conventional 2.6, which in use will shear as low as 2.4 (roughly). Anything in that range is acceptable for wear. Both the Amsoil and RL 0W20's are 2.8, but will stay roughly that weight in use since they tend not to shear much at all. So, the end result is that both of those oils will be 8-15% thicker in use than what you're currently using. Personally, I wouldn't go thicker than that without a good reason, so if you're using one of those oils I'd go with the 0W20. If you're using a GIII, and you wanted to try a thicker oil, I'd look for something in the 2.7-3.0 range with the lowest 40C viscosity (Ultra 5W20, M1 0W20, M1 0W30 all come to mind).



Hmm okay. I'm reading that the recommended Ford Motorcraft 5W20 has an HTHS of 2.78 (it is a group III synth blend). Should I still do the 0w20?

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: ThatGuyOverThere

Hmm okay. I'm reading that the recommended Ford Motorcraft 5W20 has an HTHS of 2.78 (it is a group III synth blend). Should I still do the 0w20?


Yeah, I would. The Motorcraft 5W20 blend has ranged from 2.65 to 2.78 depending on the version of it, but it's always tended to shear a bit--so the Amsoil or RL will still be a little thicker. And given your ambient temps and your length of drives, the shear-stable 0W20 really seem like the best mix of reducing cold-start wear while still offering some additional high-temp protection.

 

[Jim Allen]

I think JOD has offered up some very sound advice here.

 

[ThatGuyOverThere]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: ThatGuyOverThere

Hmm okay. I'm reading that the recommended Ford Motorcraft 5W20 has an HTHS of 2.78 (it is a group III synth blend). Should I still do the 0w20?


Yeah, I would. The Motorcraft 5W20 blend has ranged from 2.65 to 2.78 depending on the version of it, but it's always tended to shear a bit--so the Amsoil or RL will still be a little thicker. And given your ambient temps and your length of drives, the shear-stable 0W20 really seem like the best mix of reducing cold-start wear while still offering some additional high-temp protection.


Thanks again, let me see if I get this straight.

Since my drives are mostly short, my oil probably doesn't reach full operating temperature very often so therefore, the 0w20 (instead of the 5w20) will be thinner when cold so I would get better protection. Is that correct?

Redline 0W20 has a HTHS of 2.7 -- Which falls right into the same range as the Motorcraft stuff. However, Redline recommends their 5w20 for the Ford WSS-M2C945-A certification, which has an HTHS of 3.3

Should my oil use change when the weather changes? We get rather hot and humid summers around here.

Also, I notice that a lot of VOA's for redline show a ton of Moly but the TBN's come out low compared to stuff like Amsoil or even Pennzoil Platinum. Is this what I want if I have a lead foot and am a rev-happy driver? Not looking to do extended OCI but is a TBN of about 9 good enough to last 5000 miles?

 

[OVERKILL]

I would use M1 0w30 personally. I use it in the Expedition and as far as good low temp starting goes, next to zero consumption and overall engine smoothness/quietness, it appears to be the best choice.