Advice for 2009 Ford Mustang GT (UOA Inside)

[ThatGuyOverThere]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
If the tune is overly rich, I'd be concerned about it washing down your cylinder walls. I'd give Paul at call at Torq (in Florida) and see what he can do for you. He's a buddy of mine.

I think your UOA is fine really, given the car's use. The copper is irrelevant since we know it isn't from any bearing in the engine. It may just be leaching from a sealer that Ford used. Nothing to be concerned about.

I'm not familiar with that intake. I've used C&L products in the past, but is it a true cold air intake or does it breathe from under the hood?


I don't think my tune is WAY off but who knows. I'm going to be installing a wideband this weekend and getting a new tune so we'll see how that goes.

The intake breathes from under the hood, it's just a larger 95mm MAF and pipe and I threw on an AEM dryflow filter.

This is how the intake sits:

I'd also like to add that I have an oil catch can attached and a lot of people say that their car catches a good 3-4 teaspoons of oil every oil change (5000miles-ish). I've had this catch can on for 10,000 miles and I don't get any significant amount of oil in it, not even enough for it to drip out of the can if I hold it upside down. I'm not sure if this means anything but thought I'd mention it.

Regardless of how well or poorly this oil is doing, I'd like to step it up to a Group IV, if not V, just because I can afford it at this point. It can't hurt so why not? My question then is, which oils will I truly benefit the most from (brand, weight, etc) compared to my current pennzoil platinum 5w20. Also note that my UOA was from when I lived in a moderate climate all year around.

 

[OVERKILL]

Was wondering if it had a divider to stop it from breathing the engine bay air. Your picture confirms that it does. Who is doing your re-tune?

Wide-bands are great

I have an Innovate setup and really like it.

 

[pcfxer]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: chubbs1
Before I read Merkava's post, the first thing that hit me was the 5w20 is too thin for that powerful engine.


65hp/liter is an incredibly powerful engine requiring a thicker viscosity than the mfg recommends? Somehow, I'm not seeing it.

The numbers from the UOA, which frankly aren't that high at all, are simply from break-in wear. Given the age of the engine and his driving habits, things look great. The oil has barely sheared over 6K of short-trip driving, which is a pretty good indication that this engine simply isn't hard on oil.

PZ ultra is a slightly thicker oil (2.7 vs 2.6 hths), so the OP could always give that a shot. But this UOA looks pretty much perfect to me given the conditions.

If cost isn't a big concern, I'd probably switch to the Ford Racing filter though, since it has the bypass in the base, while offering higher flow and better filtration than the regular Motorcraft filter.


My Sentra's 2.5 litre motor is dishing out 80hp/litre and comes stock with a coolant-oil cooler and I'm using 5w-30. Your 4.6L is barely pushing 70hp/litre with the cams (stock springs and such right? so they must be mild cams). I think everything is peachy keen here, but if you want to up your oil to PZU or Amsoil AZO you WILL get better protection.

Technically, you could continue your use of Pennzoil Platinum 5w-20 and you'd have your 4.6L last you a long while.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: pcfxer
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: chubbs1
Before I read Merkava's post, the first thing that hit me was the 5w20 is too thin for that powerful engine.


65hp/liter is an incredibly powerful engine requiring a thicker viscosity than the mfg recommends? Somehow, I'm not seeing it.

The numbers from the UOA, which frankly aren't that high at all, are simply from break-in wear. Given the age of the engine and his driving habits, things look great. The oil has barely sheared over 6K of short-trip driving, which is a pretty good indication that this engine simply isn't hard on oil.

PZ ultra is a slightly thicker oil (2.7 vs 2.6 hths), so the OP could always give that a shot. But this UOA looks pretty much perfect to me given the conditions.

If cost isn't a big concern, I'd probably switch to the Ford Racing filter though, since it has the bypass in the base, while offering higher flow and better filtration than the regular Motorcraft filter.


My Sentra's 2.5 litre motor is dishing out 80hp/litre and comes stock with a coolant-oil cooler and I'm using 5w-30. Your 4.6L is barely pushing 70hp/litre with the cams (stock springs and such right? so they must be mild cams). I think everything is peachy keen here, but if you want to up your oil to PZU or Amsoil AZO you WILL get better protection.

Technically, you could continue your use of Pennzoil Platinum 5w-20 and you'd have your 4.6L last you a long while.


A long while? LOL, they last like 700,000 miles in the Vic

 

[ThatGuyOverThere]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Was wondering if it had a divider to stop it from breathing the engine bay air. Your picture confirms that it does. Who is doing your re-tune?

Wide-bands are great

I have an Innovate setup and really like it.


I have an Innovate from my last car sitting around so I thought I'd throw it on

I'm probably going to go with a BAMA (AmericanMuscle) tune because they seem very confident in their tunes with the FRPP "Hot Rod" cams--a lot of people run them and have no driveability issues, especially low-rpm stuff like I do.

Originally Posted By: pcfxer

My Sentra's 2.5 litre motor is dishing out 80hp/litre and comes stock with a coolant-oil cooler and I'm using 5w-30. Your 4.6L is barely pushing 70hp/litre with the cams (stock springs and such right? so they must be mild cams). I think everything is peachy keen here, but if you want to up your oil to PZU or Amsoil AZO you WILL get better protection.

Technically, you could continue your use of Pennzoil Platinum 5w-20 and you'd have your 4.6L last you a long while.


The cams are very very mild and use the stock springs.

I realize this and appreciate your comments, but like you said, I'm looking to get the maximum protection. This is car is not daily driven for now but it may well be one day. In the future, I'm probably going to throw more serious stuff at it, a supercharger, etc...so I'm trying to keep it healthy while I still can.

Could the copper and iron be from sealants and stuff used in assembly? I called Blackstone and they said that, although they don't do a lot of these motors, they believe the motor takes a LONG time to break in. I was told I would see the Iron and Copper levels come down closer to 40,000 miles--I'm at 20,000ish now. Any truth to this?

In addition, I've got a sample of oil which only has a little 1000 miles on it, mostly freeway. I didn't bother sending it because I thought the low mile OCI would make it meaningless. What do you guys think? Should I send it in?

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: JOD
I hate to ask the obvious, but what on earth does the recommendation for the supercharged 5.4 Shelby putting out over 500HP have to do with the OP's car?


The OP says he drives his Mustang very aggressively. Ford has assumed that their customers are going to drive the 5.4L Shelby Mustang very aggressively. If you put 2 and 2 together, you should be able to get my point.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: JOD
I hate to ask the obvious, but what on earth does the recommendation for the supercharged 5.4 Shelby putting out over 500HP have to do with the OP's car?


The OP says he drives his Mustang very aggressively. Ford has assumed that their customers are going to drive the 5.4L Shelby Mustang very aggressively. If you put 2 and 2 together, you should be able to get my point.


The Shelby has a Supercharger, meaning it is force-feeding a lot of very hot air into that engine to arrive at the 550HP rating Ford gave it. This engine is just over 300HP in comparison, and is naturally aspirated.

This all has to do greatly with oil temperature. The Shelby has the capability to get the oil hot enough that it needs an oil with a higher HTHS. The N/A 4.6L does not.

If he adds a blower to this engine.... That changes the game entirely.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: ThatGuyOverThere
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Was wondering if it had a divider to stop it from breathing the engine bay air. Your picture confirms that it does. Who is doing your re-tune?

Wide-bands are great

I have an Innovate setup and really like it.


I have an Innovate from my last car sitting around so I thought I'd throw it on

I'm probably going to go with a BAMA (AmericanMuscle) tune because they seem very confident in their tunes with the FRPP "Hot Rod" cams--a lot of people run them and have no driveability issues, especially low-rpm stuff like I do.

Originally Posted By: pcfxer

My Sentra's 2.5 litre motor is dishing out 80hp/litre and comes stock with a coolant-oil cooler and I'm using 5w-30. Your 4.6L is barely pushing 70hp/litre with the cams (stock springs and such right? so they must be mild cams). I think everything is peachy keen here, but if you want to up your oil to PZU or Amsoil AZO you WILL get better protection.

Technically, you could continue your use of Pennzoil Platinum 5w-20 and you'd have your 4.6L last you a long while.


The cams are very very mild and use the stock springs.

I realize this and appreciate your comments, but like you said, I'm looking to get the maximum protection. This is car is not daily driven for now but it may well be one day. In the future, I'm probably going to throw more serious stuff at it, a supercharger, etc...so I'm trying to keep it healthy while I still can.

Could the copper and iron be from sealants and stuff used in assembly? I called Blackstone and they said that, although they don't do a lot of these motors, they believe the motor takes a LONG time to break in. I was told I would see the Iron and Copper levels come down closer to 40,000 miles--I'm at 20,000ish now. Any truth to this?

In addition, I've got a sample of oil which only has a little 1000 miles on it, mostly freeway. I didn't bother sending it because I thought the low mile OCI would make it meaningless. What do you guys think? Should I send it in?


I did mention the sealers thing in one of my posts as a very likely source for the copper.

FWIW, here is the place my buddy Paul works for:

http://gettorq.com/flashindex.html

At least check them out before you make a decision. He used to own, and tuned a TT Termi that made ~850RWHP. Daily driver tune on 93 octane was 750RWHP.

 

[Jim Allen]

If the engine has an oil cooler, they often use copper in their construction and they will shed copper for a long period. There are also copper based sealants that will leach. I have a 5.4L 3-valve with 34K miles and the iron is still dropping from about 30 ppm like yours, last tested at about 29K. You have no worries at your levels... sleep well ( : < )

Save your UOA money and wait until the oil is due for a change. That's when the useful part of the story will be told.

I think you will be fine with a robust 5w or 0W20 but with caveats. One reason for a jump to 30 grade is to account for fuel dilution and possible thinning. Your dilution wasn't all that bad considering the aggressive tune and the miles but it's worth keeping an eye on.

Also oil temp. I have no idea how hot the oil temp runs on your engine. I know my 5.4L 3V intimately and the oil remains very cool. On the hottest days and the heaviest load it barely ever reaches 212F. My philosophy on viscosity boils down to oil temp. If you see oil temps that stay below about 212 most of the time, the need for a heavier oil is less because a 20 grade is running in the 30 grade viscosity range at 185 oil temp (for the most part, it may vary a little... remember viscosity is based on temp). If you regularly run higher than 212 (the viscosity rating temp for the oil) then I think you need a heavier oil. FWIW, I look at this from the tow/haul standpoint, not the Hi-Po one, but many of the same things apply.

If you have a programmer that has a readout panel and you can read EOT (Engine Oil Temperature), it may be worth your while to monitor that for a while and find an average running temp for your car. If it's below 212 most of the time (and doesn't climb much above that in high stress situations) that's one indicator you can stay with a robust 20 grade. Vice Versa applies to. Knowledge is power!

 

[ThatGuyOverThere]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

If he adds a blower to this engine.... That changes the game entirely.


We can get to that part when I actually get around to it

In the meantime, I agree. This motor is what most would call "mildly modified". It's a street vehicle, don't get me wrong here. I rarely get a chance to race this thing and when I do, it's almost always the drag strip, which is just one pull and then a 20 minute wait to get back in line.

For all intents and purposes here, this is a street driven car, I doubt I have ever come close to high enough temps where the flashpoint and whatnot will start to matter. However, I'm not in the position where I just want to "get by" and I don't, in all honesty, treat this thing very well when it comes to driving it. I always change my oil on time or before the OCI. I think some people misunderstood me and I apologize for that. When I said 6 months, I meant that I change it every 6 months because that's when the "time is up" so to speak. I have no idea if this is necessary, I'm just going by the book (7500 miles OR 6 months, whichever comes first).

In a nutshell: I'm not looking for an extended OCI. I plan on changing the oil every 5000 miles if not sooner--if you guys can shed some light into this for me, I'd greatly appreciate it. Does oil "go bad" from sitting in the sump for a long time? I start this thing for a quick drive about once or twice a week but sometimes as infrequently as once every 2 weeks.

 

[ThatGuyOverThere]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
If the engine has an oil cooler, they often use copper in their construction and they will shed copper for a long period. There are also copper based sealants that will leach. I have a 5.4L 3-valve with 34K miles and the iron is still dropping from about 30 ppm like yours, last tested at about 29K. You have no worries at your levels... sleep well ( : < )

Save your UOA money and wait until the oil is due for a change. That's when the useful part of the story will be told.

I think you will be fine with a robust 5w or 0W20 but with caveats. One reason for a jump to 30 grade is to account for fuel dilution and possible thinning. Your dilution wasn't all that bad considering the aggressive tune and the miles but it's worth keeping an eye on.

Also oil temp. I have no idea how hot the oil temp runs on your engine. I know my 5.4L 3V intimately and the oil remains very cool. On the hottest days and the heaviest load it barely ever reaches 212F. My philosophy on viscosity boils down to oil temp. If you see oil temps that stay below about 212 most of the time, the need for a heavier oil is less because a 20 grade is running in the 30 grade viscosity range at 185 oil temp (for the most part, it may vary a little... remember viscosity is based on temp). If you regularly run higher than 212 (the viscosity rating temp for the oil) then I think you need a heavier oil. FWIW, I look at this from the tow/haul standpoint, not the Hi-Po one, but many of the same things apply.

If you have a programmer that has a readout panel and you can read EOT (Engine Oil Temperature), it may be worth your while to monitor that for a while and find an average running temp for your car. If it's below 212 most of the time (and doesn't climb much above that in high stress situations) that's one indicator you can stay with a robust 20 grade. Vice Versa applies to. Knowledge is power!


That makes sense. I'll check and see if I can get an oil temp reading off my handheld programmer (SCT X3). Would it be a good idea to check it at different loads? Say, idling for 5 minutes, right after a freeway cruise, and right after I beat the living [censored] out of it?

For that matter, I just realized my car idles a lot...stop and go traffic, whaddya know!

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

I did mention the sealers thing in one of my posts as a very likely source for the copper.

FWIW, here is the place my buddy Paul works for:

http://gettorq.com/flashindex.html

At least check them out before you make a decision. He used to own, and tuned a TT Termi that made ~850RWHP. Daily driver tune on 93 octane was 750RWHP.


I'll definitely look into it! Thanks for the recommendation! There are just so many [censored] tuners for this car out there. My last car was the complete opposite--little to no aftermarket support...I ended up tuning the [censored] thing myself!

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

The Shelby has a Supercharger, meaning it is force-feeding a lot of very hot air into that engine to arrive at the 550HP rating Ford gave it. This engine is just over 300HP in comparison, and is naturally aspirated.

This all has to do greatly with oil temperature. The Shelby has the capability to get the oil hot enough that it needs an oil with a higher HTHS. The N/A 4.6L does not.

If he adds a blower to this engine.... That changes the game entirely.


So are you recommending that the OP keep using 5W-20 ?

 

[Gene K]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
You guys with those Mustangs need to quit running 5W-20 -- I don't care what Ford says.... Those iron and copper numbers are through the roof. You might as well say piston ring numbers and bearing numbers because that's what they are. You keep wearing your bearings out and you're gonna eventually start losing oil pressure ...


No copper bearings exist in a 4.6L Ford.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

The Shelby has a Supercharger, meaning it is force-feeding a lot of very hot air into that engine to arrive at the 550HP rating Ford gave it. This engine is just over 300HP in comparison, and is naturally aspirated.

This all has to do greatly with oil temperature. The Shelby has the capability to get the oil hot enough that it needs an oil with a higher HTHS. The N/A 4.6L does not.

If he adds a blower to this engine.... That changes the game entirely.


So are you recommending that the OP keep using 5W-20 ?


I'd probably go to a 0w30 actually. That's what I'm running in my 5.4L. A touch higher HTHS. I'm using M1 0w30.

If he adds a blower, I'd suggest M1 0w40.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: Gene K

No copper bearings exist in a 4.6L Ford.


They had to have used Tri-metal bearings; otherwise, where's the copper coming from?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: Gene K

No copper bearings exist in a 4.6L Ford.


They had to have used Tri-metal bearings; otherwise, where's the copper coming from?


The ONLY Modular with Tri-metal bearings as far as I know is the one in the Shelby. All the others have bi-metal Silicon/Aluminum bearings in them. And they have no cam bearings; the cam rides on the journals in the head... Which of course are also aluminum.

I'd say the copper is coming from a sealant used somewhere in the engine. It is the only logical conclusion one can draw from these facts.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


The ONLY Modular with Tri-metal bearings as far as I know is the one in the Shelby. All the others have bi-metal Silicon/Aluminum bearings in them. And they have no cam bearings; the cam rides on the journals in the head... Which of course are also aluminum.

I'd say the copper is coming from a sealant used somewhere in the engine. It is the only logical conclusion one can draw from these facts.


We're back to the same situation as we have in the 2006 Ford Freestyle thread.
We didn't find out exactly where the copper is coming from in that thread either.

 

[Jim Allen]

It isn't much copper anyway. Plus, if you have bearing issues they are accompanied by large amounts of other metals too, tin or lead being other possibles. As I said, copper could come from an oil cooler (if so equipped) but more likely a copper based sealant.

 

[Cujet]

While not the same, the Ford 4.6L truck engines clearly show better UOA numbers on 10W-30 Mobil 1, compared to 5W-20, down here in hot and steamy South Florida. Especially when towing is involved. However, the numbers you are seeing are just fine.

We would see well over 90PPM iron with the thin oil on a 5K change interval and towing.

 

[buster]

M1 0W20 SN would be my choice. Short trips are tough on oil.