Originally Posted By: labman
Originally Posted By: severach
The Moentrol flows more GPM than the Posi-Temp.
Yes, but is the flow adjustable?
Definitely flow adjustable. Go to Moen, Bathroom, Shower and Spa, Shower Only Faucets. Choose any Moentrol and look at the exploded parts view. So long as the valve uses the Moen 1200 (brass) or 1225 (plastic) replacement cartridge then it is flow adjustable just like the original non pressure balanced single handle valves which use the same cartridges. Look at the Product Specifications. The 180* temperature arc and the pull on push off will far exceed your requirements and expectations. The Moen 1225 replacement valve is available at any hardware store if you want to see how it works. Moen single handle lavatory faucets should be on display so you can feel the valve in operation.
Water valves that use a triangle shaped adjustment range have good temperature control at full flow but poor temperature control at partial flow. Very low flow has no temperature control at all. You waste water at full flow where temperature adjustment is easy and you waste water fussing with the adjustment trying to get the right temperature at partial flow. Once set you don't want to turn the water off lest you need to go through it all again. Water is wasted during the times it should be off. Accidentally bumping the knob usually results in scalding or cold water, a disaster when eyes are closed with shampoo. The sealing surfaces wear unevenly which makes old valves sticky and more difficult to adjust and become leakers much too soon. Every few years you're at the home store buying another. Double or triple handle shower valves last longer and are and easier to use than single handle valves that use a triangular adjustment range. The legal requirement for pressure balance have forced designs over to the ¾ turn valves which last longer and control temperature reasonably well but few allow any control over the flow.
Moentrol and the original that came before it allow full temperature control at any flow rate. Temperature and flow are independent which allows you to change flow without changing temperature and change temperature without changing flow. You can easily turn the shower off and back on to the same temperature as before with no hot or cold slug of water in the line, a feature Moen calls temperature memory which is nothing more than the direction the handle points. Once you learn that position you can set the temperature without feeling the water. Accidentally bumping the knob usually results in turning the water low or off which is easy to recover from because the Moen is easy to adjust even with eyes closed by shampoo. Wear is distributed evenly all along the cartridge body for long life. While tub, lavatory, and sink don't require as fine of control as shower, Moen always seems like the best choice there too.
Price Pfister and Grohe have similar valve designs but can't match Moen in price, availability, parts, and product line continuity. Other Moen styles are good too but the original single handle and Moentrol valves are the best. The 1200 and 1225 cartridges are interchangeable and rebuildable. The parts are already at the hardware store and sometimes Moen will send the rebuild parts or replace the faucet for free under the drip-free warranty, something you won't need to collect on very often. Greased with silicone faucet grease every few years they will last even longer.
My shower had IMHO the worst of all the triangular adjustment valves: Sears Valley with the long handle part #18. The water is controlled by a flat valve face that slides against two spring seal supplies which is even worse than the rotating ball valves that I also didn't like. The design was hostile to low flow and it was old, worn, loose, and corroded so it took 5 minutes or more to get the temperature correct at half flow. Freezing water from bumping the handle was a common occurrence. Hot and Cold were reversed and confusion for visitors was easier to fix than the cross piping. The wall was open making the valve easy to replace. Rather than buy Valley parts I decided to look around to see if there was a less miserable design.
I took apart faucets in stores to see how they worked and I looked at the repair parts taking note of how many there were for each brand. With some help from relatives who had all selected Moen and having used a lavatory Moen for years, it didn't take much time and design analysis to see that the Moen single handle was exactly what I needed for the shower. The original Moen single handle was able to reverse hot and cold by removing the knob and rotating the stem 180* so I didn't need to swap the pipes. The Moentrol adds pressure balance without a cartridge redesign. According to the instructions Moentrol reverses hot and cold the same way and the Posi-Temp reverses with some minor disassembly by reversing the cartridge.
Once you've installed and used them it's easy to see that Moen has the best design making the most reliable and simple to use faucet available. New equipment cost is competitive with other brands. The same few parts cover their entire product line so parts are widely available at a low cost. Moen OEM parts are often cheaper than the knockoffs. The warranty is excellent. I can buy worse and almost as good but nothing better. Moen gives me lots of reasons to buy Moen and no reason to buy anything else.
If all your shower users are water conscious the Moentrol minimizes the importance of a water saver shower head. The original Moen single handle can be controlled so quickly and accurately that a 1.5 minute shower becomes possible, with a time allowance for preheat, temperature and flow always correct, nothing unwashed, and the water off between wet and rinse. That's about 45 seconds of running water. Not much room for improvement there. Not at all possible a double, or a triple handle, or even a shiny new Valley,. The inaccurate old and new pressure balanced single handles would be a distant second. I might try that again tomorrow, just because I can.
If all you've ever used is the lousy shower faucets, which I would expect because almost every one is lousy including Moen's Posi-Temp, you simply have no idea how good the good Moentrol really is. While I haven't actually used a Moentrol to see if the pressure balance mechanism interferes with anything, the Moen quality standards that surround that cartridge is enough for me to be certain that it performs as well as my original Moen single handle.
If only Moen sales knew how to promote what their design team hath wrought. Instead they promote the Posi-Temp water cannon so Moen looks just as bad as the other brands and the good Moentrol gets ignored.
Originally Posted By: severach
The Moentrol flows more GPM than the Posi-Temp.
Yes, but is the flow adjustable?
Definitely flow adjustable. Go to Moen, Bathroom, Shower and Spa, Shower Only Faucets. Choose any Moentrol and look at the exploded parts view. So long as the valve uses the Moen 1200 (brass) or 1225 (plastic) replacement cartridge then it is flow adjustable just like the original non pressure balanced single handle valves which use the same cartridges. Look at the Product Specifications. The 180* temperature arc and the pull on push off will far exceed your requirements and expectations. The Moen 1225 replacement valve is available at any hardware store if you want to see how it works. Moen single handle lavatory faucets should be on display so you can feel the valve in operation.
Water valves that use a triangle shaped adjustment range have good temperature control at full flow but poor temperature control at partial flow. Very low flow has no temperature control at all. You waste water at full flow where temperature adjustment is easy and you waste water fussing with the adjustment trying to get the right temperature at partial flow. Once set you don't want to turn the water off lest you need to go through it all again. Water is wasted during the times it should be off. Accidentally bumping the knob usually results in scalding or cold water, a disaster when eyes are closed with shampoo. The sealing surfaces wear unevenly which makes old valves sticky and more difficult to adjust and become leakers much too soon. Every few years you're at the home store buying another. Double or triple handle shower valves last longer and are and easier to use than single handle valves that use a triangular adjustment range. The legal requirement for pressure balance have forced designs over to the ¾ turn valves which last longer and control temperature reasonably well but few allow any control over the flow.
Moentrol and the original that came before it allow full temperature control at any flow rate. Temperature and flow are independent which allows you to change flow without changing temperature and change temperature without changing flow. You can easily turn the shower off and back on to the same temperature as before with no hot or cold slug of water in the line, a feature Moen calls temperature memory which is nothing more than the direction the handle points. Once you learn that position you can set the temperature without feeling the water. Accidentally bumping the knob usually results in turning the water low or off which is easy to recover from because the Moen is easy to adjust even with eyes closed by shampoo. Wear is distributed evenly all along the cartridge body for long life. While tub, lavatory, and sink don't require as fine of control as shower, Moen always seems like the best choice there too.
Price Pfister and Grohe have similar valve designs but can't match Moen in price, availability, parts, and product line continuity. Other Moen styles are good too but the original single handle and Moentrol valves are the best. The 1200 and 1225 cartridges are interchangeable and rebuildable. The parts are already at the hardware store and sometimes Moen will send the rebuild parts or replace the faucet for free under the drip-free warranty, something you won't need to collect on very often. Greased with silicone faucet grease every few years they will last even longer.
My shower had IMHO the worst of all the triangular adjustment valves: Sears Valley with the long handle part #18. The water is controlled by a flat valve face that slides against two spring seal supplies which is even worse than the rotating ball valves that I also didn't like. The design was hostile to low flow and it was old, worn, loose, and corroded so it took 5 minutes or more to get the temperature correct at half flow. Freezing water from bumping the handle was a common occurrence. Hot and Cold were reversed and confusion for visitors was easier to fix than the cross piping. The wall was open making the valve easy to replace. Rather than buy Valley parts I decided to look around to see if there was a less miserable design.
I took apart faucets in stores to see how they worked and I looked at the repair parts taking note of how many there were for each brand. With some help from relatives who had all selected Moen and having used a lavatory Moen for years, it didn't take much time and design analysis to see that the Moen single handle was exactly what I needed for the shower. The original Moen single handle was able to reverse hot and cold by removing the knob and rotating the stem 180* so I didn't need to swap the pipes. The Moentrol adds pressure balance without a cartridge redesign. According to the instructions Moentrol reverses hot and cold the same way and the Posi-Temp reverses with some minor disassembly by reversing the cartridge.
Once you've installed and used them it's easy to see that Moen has the best design making the most reliable and simple to use faucet available. New equipment cost is competitive with other brands. The same few parts cover their entire product line so parts are widely available at a low cost. Moen OEM parts are often cheaper than the knockoffs. The warranty is excellent. I can buy worse and almost as good but nothing better. Moen gives me lots of reasons to buy Moen and no reason to buy anything else.
If all your shower users are water conscious the Moentrol minimizes the importance of a water saver shower head. The original Moen single handle can be controlled so quickly and accurately that a 1.5 minute shower becomes possible, with a time allowance for preheat, temperature and flow always correct, nothing unwashed, and the water off between wet and rinse. That's about 45 seconds of running water. Not much room for improvement there. Not at all possible a double, or a triple handle, or even a shiny new Valley,. The inaccurate old and new pressure balanced single handles would be a distant second. I might try that again tomorrow, just because I can.
If all you've ever used is the lousy shower faucets, which I would expect because almost every one is lousy including Moen's Posi-Temp, you simply have no idea how good the good Moentrol really is. While I haven't actually used a Moentrol to see if the pressure balance mechanism interferes with anything, the Moen quality standards that surround that cartridge is enough for me to be certain that it performs as well as my original Moen single handle.
If only Moen sales knew how to promote what their design team hath wrought. Instead they promote the Posi-Temp water cannon so Moen looks just as bad as the other brands and the good Moentrol gets ignored.
