Acura TLX discontinued

[KrisZ]

Well, looks like AI has the "Focus" bullet points about right. "Reliability" is only mentioned for ... guess who ... Lexus

Was I replying to any reliability claims?

 

[RBT]

I'm not sure Lexus made the Germans better. At least not right away. Again, Mercedes responded to the LS400 by investing massively to build the W220 - which was the worst S class, ever.

But yeah, the launch and immediate success of Lexus is history. There is a book written about this. Lexus: The Relentless Pursuit

Respectfully this is not accurate - Mercedes and other industry participants knew about the LS400 - amazing car, they know it from corporate espionage, they all do it - and it was the reason the W140 was extremely over engineered and overly complex. The w220 was an attempt to get back market share based on price and as you noted it was probably the least distinguished S class ever made. Problematics cars to put it mildly. Not just those but the C and E of that time were also not that good.

Lexus makes very good cars and they have changed the industry, as the gentleman above noted. Any Toyota fan should visit the Tahara plant - amazing place.

 

[trd1zz]

Respectfully this is not accurate - Mercedes and other industry participants knew about the LS400 - amazing car, they know it from corporate espionage, they all do it - and it was the reason the W140 was extremely over engineered and overly complex. The w220 was an attempt to get back market share based on price and as you noted it was probably the least distinguished S class ever made. Problematics cars to put it mildly. Not just those but the C and E of that time were also not that good.

Lexus makes very good cars and they have changed the industry, as the gentleman above noted. Any Toyota fan should visit the Tahara plant - amazing place.

Toyota launched Lexus with LS (Project F1) as a secret project. Maybe Mercedes knew something was going on but I sincerely doubt they had knowledge of any substantial details. Claiming otherwise due to corporate espionage is a wild claim. I haven't seen that, anywhere. W140 initial design began and finished well before LS launched. Some things can be tweaked at the end of the run, but the timing simply doesn't line up for W140 to be built the way it was from the ground up because it was their response to LS400.

W220 is Mercedes from the ground up response to LS400 where all the details and sales success of LS400 were known and out in the open. Easy to see when W220 got smaller. And as we both agree, W220 was a horrible car. Almost all E's as well (I owned one).

 

[NormanBuntz]

OK. Take into consideration that current seats Toyota uses in Camry/Sienna/HL/GHL are almost 2" shorter than my Tiguan, and 4" shorter than in my BMW with extension out.
I have Sequoia with those padded seats etc. I will take my 3 series any time on a road trip over that car, bcs. comfort. The only reason I have such a car as a Sequoia is size, and off roading. And that does well. Comfort? Not even close. And we are talking Sequoia, not Camry.

If you or your partner, spouse etc. have long legs, those Toyota seats don't cut it.

 

[Mainia]

Problem is that nobody makes a non-sedan type vehicle that isn’t a pig. This was orchestrated to force (typically sedan) EVs to fill the gaps not closed by CAFE payouts associated with unacheivable mpg values.

I find most suvs low on utility, poor on fuel, and it just sucks.

Yeah, this car would make a nice tuner car, but then again ...is it a turbo V6? A good start for some suspension work. You could easily get it up to snuff with lowering springs and some spring rubbers to increase those lowering springs, spring rate and tune front to rear bias.

 

[RBT]

Toyota launched Lexus with LS (Project F1) as a secret project. Maybe Mercedes knew something was going on but I sincerely doubt they had knowledge of any substantial details. Claiming otherwise due to corporate espionage is a wild claim. I haven't seen that, anywhere. W140 initial design began and finished well before LS launched. Some things can be tweaked at the end of the run, but the timing simply doesn't line up for W140 to be built the way it was from the ground up because it was their response to LS400.

W220 is Mercedes from the ground up response to LS400 where all the details and sales success of LS400 were known and out in the open. Easy to see when W220 got smaller. And as we both agree, W220 was a horrible car. Almost all E's as well (I owned one).

I am not going to argue/. One of the reasons Mercedes put the M103 in the W126 in 1988 or so is because they knew Lexu was coming with an LS that would greatly undercut them on price. W220 cost cutting was in response was in reasonse to the apparent need for the Germans luxury brands to get sales volume because that was the need from the business perspective - it’s why BMW experimented buying a rover etc. 220 was messed up because they messed up not because of Lexus.

 

[edyvw]

If you or your partner, spouse etc. have long legs, those Toyota seats don't cut it.

My wife is fine, but she and driving don’t go into same sentence. So I always drive when road trips.
6.2, you are always having feeling you are hanging from the seat.
Sequoia we have is better, not as good as my 3 series. Far from it.

 

[edyvw]

I am not going to argue/. One of the reasons Mercedes put the M103 in the W126 in 1988 or so is because they knew Lexu was coming with an LS that would greatly undercut them on price. W220 cost cutting was in response was in reasonse to the apparent need for the Germans luxury brands to get sales volume because that was the need from the business perspective - it’s why BMW experimented buying a rover etc. 220 was messed up because they messed up not because of Lexus.

Lexus took part of the market that doesn’t car about brand, performance etc. People whose self-awareness is theoretical concept like dark matter. It was excellent business decision. That is why LS500 today is by far the worst luxury seller. Same people just moved onto something else.
They wanted barge, comfort and that is it. There was absolutely nothing that LS ever contributed to automotive industry. Otherwise, it would have issues, it wouldn’t appeal to that group.
It is luxury appliance. A high end refrigerator. That is why current one (besides junk engine) is selling so bad. LS was never name. People who buy in this category want something special not to drive LS 400 when they are 89 in some retirement community in Florida.

 

[OVERKILL]

Statistics. Have you ever taken such a class in high school or college? One will always find those few who swear by the reliability of their German car...but they are one, or few...statistics shows us that German vehicles are exceedingly less reliable than Japanese. You refuse to acknowledge this fact. Instead, you dump on Toyota and Honda owners. Go with data, not emotion, the kind of emotion you attach Japanese buyers as having.

Bro, we already established that Acura has lower reliability than the Germans in the other thread, maybe avoid lumping it into a conversation that is pretty much exclusively about Lexus vs?

If you are going to cite use of statistics, at least be consistent with the ones we've already discussed, or make an effort to address your opposition to those statistics with a lede.

 

[RBT]

Lexus took part of the market that doesn’t car about brand, performance etc. People whose self-awareness is theoretical concept like dark matter. It was excellent business decision. That is why LS500 today is by far the worst luxury seller. Same people just moved onto something else.
They wanted barge, comfort and that is it. There was absolutely nothing that LS ever contributed to automotive industry. Otherwise, it would have issues, it wouldn’t appeal to that group.
It is luxury appliance. A high end refrigerator. That is why current one (besides junk engine) is selling so bad. LS was never name. People who buy in this category want something special not to drive LS 400 when they are 89 in some retirement community in Florida.

Respectfully, you are not giving the original LS enough credit. Twin cam 32 valve v8 in 1990 when the top MB motor was a SOHC 16 valve M117, 5.6, about 238 hp in the US v 250 in the Lexus. BMW had the M70, basically two m20s cast together, turbine smooth but could be a real pain in the tush and I say that as a BMW fan. The other BMW was the venerable M30 - b35 was 208 in US trim. BMW V8 of comparable spec didn’t arrive in the US until ‘93, Mercedes got the new V8s in 1992 so you have to give Toyota credit there. The original LS was an achievement.

I am less familiar with the new Lexus but respectfully the build quality on the Japanese origin models is impressive. I am a fan of all great cars and try to give credit where it is due.

 

[meep]

I’ve started maintaining a friends 2003 LS. It is indeed a very well designed and built vehicle. Runs like a new car. Air blows ice cold. Drives straight as a rail. Seats feel good. It is in a class of its own for what it is.

Edit. Reading all of this, I really miss my 2014 GS. Easily the nicest and best-handling car I’ve owned. But like others said recently, it was tiring to always be looking at bumpers and bike racks.

 

[edyvw]

Respectfully, you are not giving the original LS enough credit. Twin cam 32 valve v8 in 1990 when the top MB motor was a SOHC 16 valve M117, 5.6, about 238 hp in the US v 250 in the Lexus. BMW had the M70, basically two m20s cast together, turbine smooth but could be a real pain in the tush and I say that as a BMW fan. The other BMW was the venerable M30 - b35 was 208 in US trim. BMW V8 of comparable spec didn’t arrive in the US until ‘93, Mercedes got the new V8s in 1992 so you have to give Toyota credit there. The original LS was an achievement.

I am less familiar with the new Lexus but respectfully the build quality on the Japanese origin models is impressive. I am a fan of all great cars and try to give credit where it is due.

I don't think you understand what I mean by innovation. DOHC was nothing new. In 1989 4cyl small hatchback had DOHC in Europe. Mercedes had DOHC in I6 in 1979. Just because it was applied to V8, does not mean it is some breakthrough.
Regardless of what is on the US market, innovations don't work in a vacuum. Just because something is not on the US market does not mean others don't pick up.
As for M70, there is no comparison there. V12 is V12. We are not talking Camry category. No one buys a V12 with expectations to have the alternator replaced for the same price as for a Civic. This is "noble" class. That is why LS never had sales numbers of S or 7 series. It matters how the engine performs, where it delivers torque, etc. That is why current LS is an abomination, because it never had that status that 7 series had, and especially S class.

The original LS was a good business decision. It captured certain buyers who wanted a nice, comfortable, luxury vehicle, but excess was not important. V12? There is no comparison there. If luxury and status matter, V12 rules the day.

 

[RBT]

I don't think you understand what I mean by innovation. DOHC was nothing new. In 1989 4cyl small hatchback had DOHC in Europe. Mercedes had DOHC in I6 in 1979. Just because it was applied to V8, does not mean it is some breakthrough.
Regardless of what is on the US market, innovations don't work in a vacuum. Just because something is not on the US market does not mean others don't pick up.
As for M70, there is no comparison there. V12 is V12. We are not talking Camry category. No one buys a V12 with expectations to have the alternator replaced for the same price as for a Civic. This is "noble" class. That is why LS never had sales numbers of S or 7 series. It matters how the engine performs, where it delivers torque, etc. That is why current LS is an abomination, because it never had that status that 7 series had, and especially S class.

The original LS was a good business decision. It captured certain buyers who wanted a nice, comfortable, luxury vehicle, but excess was not important. V12? There is no comparison there. If luxury and status matter, V12 rules the day.

Respectfully, I could say a lot but the Mercedes M110 was no where in the same league as the motor in the original LS. I say this as a fan of classic Benzes. BMW always did a better job with motors. And the M70 (speaking from personal experience) required more development.

Have a good evening.

 

[trd1zz]

I say this as a fan of classic Benzes. BMW always did a better job with motors.

Not with V8s. And certainly not with the V8s in the LS400 & LS430's direct competitors.

Mercedes V8s (M119, M113) during this time actually weren't that bad. Problem is M113 leaks from everywhere and internal seals inevitably fail mixing oil with coolant.

BMW V8s are garbage in comparison. But neither MB or BMW V8s are in the same league as the Toyota / Lexus UZ engines. UZ is the king of V8. These are the million mile engines. Plenty of UZ's still out there today, purring like a kitten.

 

[Carmudgeon]

Some say (Cue Jeremy Clarkson) that with the automatic transmission getting better fuel ec than the manual transmission and everyone having cellphones integrated into their vehicles this pushed the manual transmission by the wayside. In 2007 I wrote a college paper on how the BMW 335i could be a real performance machine or comfortable car with good fuel economy if you kept your foot out of the accelerator pedal. At the time the BMW salesman said that the manual transmission take rate was 30-35%. In the F20 it was 5%.

At least the Audi RS3 uses the inline 5 that is proprietary to that car. Apparently VW wanted that engine to power the newest Golf R before it came out but Audi told VW to go stuff it, absolutely not.

Takes rates in the 30% range for mainstream models (like sports sedans; not sports cars) in the U.S. was a good figure. The Korean auto exec who recently tried to couch it as low shouldn't have spoken for the market at large.

The notion that VAG, and all of its companies operate as a single entity is a common misconception. They share ownership, and cooperate when it is logical for corporate (buzzword warning) synergy, but compete against each other on the road, and on track.

We now return you to your regular program of trope slinging…

 

[RBT]

Not with V8s. And certainly not with the V8s in the LS400 & LS430's direct competitors.

Mercedes V8s (M119, M113) during this time actually weren't that bad. Problem is M113 leaks from everywhere and internal seals inevitably fail mixing oil with coolant.

BMW V8s are garbage in comparison. But neither MB or BMW V8s are in the same league as the Toyota / Lexus UZ engines. UZ is the king of V8. These are the million mile engines. Plenty of UZ's still out there today, purring like a kitten.

Again you just like to argue. My point was clearly v MB. I have also taken two BMW M60 V8s to 200k. Both were very solid, still own one. How many BMWs, and in particular BMW V8s have you owned?

Let’s do this: let’s just give official recognition to the fact that anything Lexus (and Toyota) is perfect and not subject to the normal laws of aging and mechanical wear that afflict all other machines on planet Earth, and then you don’t need to jump in to remind us that they are perfect and the people who like to have conversations about great cars, including the LS 400 and its descendants, can do so without re-litigating that you had a bad German car experience. How’s that sound? Otherwise maybe just try some prunes. Take care.

 

[trd1zz]

Again you just like to argue. My point was clearly v MB. I have also taken two BMW M60 V8s to 200k. Both were very solid, still own one. How many BMWs, and in particular BMW V8s have you owned?

Let’s do this: let’s just give official recognition to the fact that anything Lexus (and Toyota) is perfect and not subject to the normal laws of aging and mechanical wear that afflict all other machines on planet Earth, and then you don’t need to jump in to remind us that they are perfect and the people who like to have conversations about great cars, including the LS 400 and its descendants, can do so without re-litigating that you had a bad German car experience. How’s that sound? Otherwise maybe just try some prunes. Take care.

And my point was clearly BMW vs Mercedes as well? Not sure how you can claim BMW did better than Mercedes with the V8 motors of this time period. It's just not the case. Anyways, another one - getting a little touchy and personal. Feel free to use the Ignore button if you don't like to "argue". Remember, they're just cars.