ACDelco PF64 - C&P - Torn Media!

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Originally Posted By: Patman
Now if Fram would just come out with an Ultra that has the 22psi bypass and is the same size as the PF64, that would be amazing!


I already PM'd Motorking asking as such. Come on Fram! Get with it
grin.gif


The XG10060 is the perfect filter. All it's missing is the bypass spec.
 
There is also a Fram Extra Guard PH12060 that cross references to the PF64, and it has a 19-25 psi bypass, but there doesn't seem to be an Ultra version of that part number.
 
Originally Posted By: Patman
There is also a Fram Extra Guard PH12060 that cross references to the PF64, and it has a 19-25 psi bypass, but there doesn't seem to be an Ultra version of that part number.


Good catch! Notice how Fram targets that filter as a replacement for the UPF64R and not the PF64.
 
Originally Posted By: webfors
Why do certain GM engines call for the UPF64R? Check out the GM notice in the following thread:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4181591/Ever_heard_of_an_ACDelco_UPF64
All indication are that the UPF64R is a better filter in every respect and is a direct replacement for the PF64.


GM engines with name-codes LE2, LV7, LFV and L3A use the UPF64R with 35 psi bypass valve pressure threshold, according to GM.
Many GM engines call for the PF64 with its 22 psi bypass.
For a while, GM was temporarily allowing PF64's to be used in UPF64R applications (LE2, LV7, LFV and L3A engines), because they had supply shortages of the UPF64R back about a couple of years ago.

In the aftermarket world of oil filters, anything goes. The GM 35 psi or 22 psi recommendations are usually ignored and they slap on anything that "fits".
You could just disagree with GM engineers about their bypass pressure specs. Probably not wise, but nothing stops anybody from doing what they want.

I think the only price you pay for using a smaller bypass valve psi threshold is that sometimes at cold startup you get bypass events that wash junk from the dirty side of the oil filter directly to your bearings surfaces. GM says don't do that.
 
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: webfors
Why do certain GM engines call for the UPF64R? Check out the GM notice in the following thread:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4181591/Ever_heard_of_an_ACDelco_UPF64
All indication are that the UPF64R is a better filter in every respect and is a direct replacement for the PF64.


GM engines with name-codes LE2, LV7, LFV and L3A use the UPF64R with 35 psi bypass valve pressure threshold, according to GM.
Many GM engines call for the PF64 with its 22 psi bypass.
For a while, GM was temporarily allowing PF64's to be used in UPF64R applications (LE2, LV7, LFV and L3A engines), because they had supply shortages of the UPF64R back about a couple of years ago.

In the aftermarket world of oil filters, anything goes. The GM 35 psi or 22 psi recommendations are usually ignored and they slap on anything that "fits".
You could just disagree with GM engineers about their bypass pressure specs. Probably not wise, but nothing stops anybody from doing what they want.

I think the only price you pay for using a smaller bypass valve psi threshold is that sometimes at cold startup you get bypass events that wash junk from the dirty side of the oil filter directly to your bearings surfaces. GM says don't do that.


I believe all of us in this thread have landed on adhering to the 22psi spec.

Can the UPF64R be used in place of the PF64? It appears that GM's service bulletins indicate yes.
 
Originally Posted By: webfors
Can the UPF64R be used in place of the PF64? It appears that GM's service bulletins indicate yes.
Its the other way around. A PF64 could be used in place of a UPF64R, and that was only allowed temporarily about 2 years ago due to a parts shortage problem.

Using a UPF64R in PF64 applications has never been authorized by GM. The UPF64R has a very high 35 psi bypass setting, so maybe GM is worried it could over stress the oil pump during cold starts. (??) Or it could starve the galleys for too long during cold starts. .... I don't know why GM says 35 psi for some applications and 22 psi for others, but it's GM's policy, from their engineers.
 
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
webfors said:
I think the only price you pay for using a smaller bypass valve psi threshold is that sometimes at cold startup you get bypass events that wash junk from the dirty side of the oil filter directly to your bearings surfaces. GM says don't do that.


I'd really like to see a flow vs delta-p curve for the AC Delco filters with the 22 PSI bypass valve. Could be part of the reason the bypass valve is set higher is because they are somewhat flow restrictive and have relatively high delta-p.

GM oil pumps on the engines calling for the 22 PSI bypass filters can't be putting out any more, or much more flow than the oil pumps on their older Hi-Pro engines. Maybe they put out much more flow at lower RPM. Would like to see the flow vs engine RPM oil pump flow curves.

A cold start-up at 1000~1200 RPM shouldn't be flowing much oil volume out of the oil pump. Maybe GM thinks guys are going to hammer the engine with cold oil. I've actually seen that happen at the drag strip.
 
Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
GM does design the filter correctly, but the maker Champ Labs has been suffering "wide pleat." Even an M1 shown on here had a super wide pleat. They need to test the filters with wide pleats if they make them that way. There is always the PF63E. Which may have wide pleat too.

Funny when I show a defective Fram TG, worse defect than a torn pleat IMO, there is no condemnation of them. Every day thousands of PF64's are being installed, very common size. Maybe Cadillac will take note and Champ will tighten their QC on the pleating.
49.gif



Link to your defective TG please.

I think it's the type of failure. A media tear is more likely to happen than other defects. However, I am the last one to give any brand a pass for junk.


About 6K miles. I posted this as a new topic but removed it, "not worth it." I was right given the hypocrisy. One torn PF64 equals one TG like this in my book. The second glue shard was on top of the baseplate. Since my filter points up and some oil gushes out I only can assume it was in the oil gallery above it. This shard was inside the center tube. I think the open space where the end cap doesn't cover the center tube is the problem. I believe when the adbv was compressed on the end cap the sharp center tube cut through the glue in the empty space with no end cap. So no more of this kind of filter for me. Just like everyone else does when they find something. Since I can't see if the end felts are centered well enough, I buy others. I predict the same response as before, disbelief and dismissal. Pictures or not, doesn't matter.






 
IMO wide pleats don’t always equal a single point failure … I have seen them on many makes … I always try to tear the material and nothing is as weak as purolator (not really in this thread)

This is an M1 212 with 10k (for you even pleat folks)

 
Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: Patman
There is also a Fram Extra Guard PH12060 that cross references to the PF64, and it has a 19-25 psi bypass, but there doesn't seem to be an Ultra version of that part number.


Good catch! Notice how Fram targets that filter as a replacement for the UPF64R and not the PF64.


I noticed that too, interesting considering it's not even close to the 35psi bypass setting of the UPF64R.
 
Originally Posted By: 4WD
IMO wide pleats don’t always equal a single point failure … I have seen them on many makes … I always try to tear the material and nothing is as weak as purolator (not really in this thread)This is an M1 212 with 10k (for you even pleat folks)
Seems Mobil1 oil filters are pretty decent. Wrong bypass spec for GM applications, but I'll bet this is on a lot of late-model Corvettes anyway since the GM memo is not well known in the real world.

Originally Posted By: Patman
webfors said:
I noticed that too, interesting considering it's not even close to the 35psi bypass setting of the UPF64R.
Yet the Fram ExtraGuard may suffer from the same poor quality construction (cardboard end caps) the TG suffers from. Prefer the Wix or the tough Fram Racing filter for the 22 psi applications --- PF64 and PF63E engines that is.

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Since my filter points up and some oil gushes out I only can assume it was in the oil gallery above it. This shard was inside the center tube. I think the open space where the end cap doesn't cover the center tube is the problem. I believe when the adbv was compressed on the end cap the sharp center tube cut through the glue in the empty space with no end cap. So no more of this kind of filter for me.

Thanks for posting that. Like with Purolators and AC-Delco PF64's that get holes in them, this Fram ToughGuard failure is not good either.
I've always looked at Fram's ExtraGuard EG and TG models with some suspicion due to the cardboard end caps, and this basically confirms they don't always get it made right.
Wix seems to be better. Mobil1 oil filters are pretty good, and Fram Ultra does well. Wish everything was cartridge oil filters so the outside body is solid metal all the time!
 
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Seems Mobil1 oil filters are pretty decent. Wrong bypass spec for GM applications, but I'll bet this is on a lot of late-model Corvettes anyway since the GM memo is not well known in the real world.



I know that a lot of guys on the Corvette forum use the M1 filter on their C7s (and C6s) but I posted a thread today about oil filters and warned them of the TSB stating it's important to use a filter with a 22psi bypass, and telling them of the new Wix and NAPA Gold filters coming out.
 
If that glue broke off someplace you should be able to tell where it broke off from. Only place there is glue on an EG or TG is at the end of the pleats to glue them to the end caps. No glue is used around the ID of the center tube like on metal end cap style filters.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If that glue broke off someplace you should be able to tell where it broke off from. Only place there is glue on an EG or TG is at the end of the pleats to glue them to the end caps. No glue is used around the ID of the center tube like on metal end cap style filters.


There is no "if." I show where. It begins as predicted.
 
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
GM does design the filter correctly, but the maker Champ Labs has been suffering "wide pleat." Even an M1 shown on here had a super wide pleat. They need to test the filters with wide pleats if they make them that way. There is always the PF63E. Which may have wide pleat too.

Funny when I show a defective Fram TG, worse defect than a torn pleat IMO, there is no condemnation of them. Every day thousands of PF64's are being installed, very common size. Maybe Cadillac will take note and Champ will tighten their QC on the pleating.
49.gif



Link to your defective TG please.

I think it's the type of failure. A media tear is more likely to happen than other defects. However, I am the last one to give any brand a pass for junk.


About 6K miles. I posted this as a new topic but removed it, "not worth it." I was right given the hypocrisy. One torn PF64 equals one TG like this in my book. The second glue shard was on top of the baseplate. Since my filter points up and some oil gushes out I only can assume it was in the oil gallery above it. This shard was inside the center tube. I think the open space where the end cap doesn't cover the center tube is the problem. I believe when the adbv was compressed on the end cap the sharp center tube cut through the glue in the empty space with no end cap. So no more of this kind of filter for me. Just like everyone else does when they find something. Since I can't see if the end felts are centered well enough, I buy others. I predict the same response as before, disbelief and dismissal. Pictures or not, doesn't matter.









I can see how the glue would have come loose... in fact you can see where there is no glue on the top of the pleats where that space is. This is why a design where the ADBV seals to a protruding center tube "lip" would mitigate against that type of failure, like the Suzuki filter I cut open:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4713586/1

I don't blame you for not wanting to use a filter with that design. And your experience is added to my library of design considerations I want in a filter.
 
Originally Posted By: 4WD
IMO wide pleats don’t always equal a single point failure … I have seen them on many makes … I always try to tear the material and nothing is as weak as purolator (not really in this thread)

This is an M1 212 with 10k (for you even pleat folks)





That's a good looking filter!
 
Too bad can't get used PF64's from a GM dealership and cut them open. Probably the daily installs of them is in the hundreds maybe thousands. It's tough to find a failed filter and trust it again. I hope Cadillac provides an answer.
 
Originally Posted By: Patman
Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: Patman
There is also a Fram Extra Guard PH12060 that cross references to the PF64, and it has a 19-25 psi bypass, but there doesn't seem to be an Ultra version of that part number.


Good catch! Notice how Fram targets that filter as a replacement for the UPF64R and not the PF64.


I noticed that too, interesting considering it's not even close to the 35psi bypass setting of the UPF64R.


Complete KNOB question on my part. Does anyone have a source document from ACDELCO on the UPF64R and PF64 oil filters. I tried to look them up on the ACDELCO site and could not find any Delco published specifications sheets.
 
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