In PQIA comparative testing does a virgin 5w30 with a better volatility # automatically have a hotter flash point?
NOACK Volatility
NOACK Volatility
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? about flash point
- Thread starter jorton
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Hi.
A better way to look at it would be: does an oil with lower volatility, or lower vapor pressure, automatically have a higher flash point?
This is a bit of chemistry, so bear with me. Every substance has IMF (intermolecular forces) holding its atoms together. That's why there are different phases (gas, liquid, solid). The WEAKER the IMF, the HIGHER the VOLATILITY, and the HIGHER the VAPOR PRESSURE. In other words, if a substance cannot hold its atoms together very well, it will quickly transition to another phase. That's why gasoline or alcohol evaporates quickly, while water requires tremendous amount of energy to do so. On a side note, you feel cold when it evaporates off your skin because of the specific heat of the substance. Anyways,
Flash point is used in combustion engines because of the heat that serves as the energy source to initiate ignition. According to my college notes haha, the flash point is the LOWEST TEMPERATURE in which the substance will evaporate to form an ignitable mixture in air. So it makes sense to believe that when a substance has WEAKER IMF's, it will have a HIGHER VOLATILITY, and subsequently should have a LOWER FLASH POINT. So it requires less energy to reach that "lowest temperature." The opposite is true for substances with stronger IMF's.
So to put it back into your original question, a 5w30 with a better (lower) volatility should have a hotter (higher) flash point. Because it requires more energy to break those IMF's and initiate a phase change.
Now, there are always exceptions in the real world. However, I cannot pull any of them from the top of my head right now.
Hopefully it helped you a bit. I studied Chemical Engineering at UCSD. Chemistry is fun :]
If I mistakenly switched some terms around my bad. But I think it should be correct.
A better way to look at it would be: does an oil with lower volatility, or lower vapor pressure, automatically have a higher flash point?
This is a bit of chemistry, so bear with me. Every substance has IMF (intermolecular forces) holding its atoms together. That's why there are different phases (gas, liquid, solid). The WEAKER the IMF, the HIGHER the VOLATILITY, and the HIGHER the VAPOR PRESSURE. In other words, if a substance cannot hold its atoms together very well, it will quickly transition to another phase. That's why gasoline or alcohol evaporates quickly, while water requires tremendous amount of energy to do so. On a side note, you feel cold when it evaporates off your skin because of the specific heat of the substance. Anyways,
Flash point is used in combustion engines because of the heat that serves as the energy source to initiate ignition. According to my college notes haha, the flash point is the LOWEST TEMPERATURE in which the substance will evaporate to form an ignitable mixture in air. So it makes sense to believe that when a substance has WEAKER IMF's, it will have a HIGHER VOLATILITY, and subsequently should have a LOWER FLASH POINT. So it requires less energy to reach that "lowest temperature." The opposite is true for substances with stronger IMF's.
So to put it back into your original question, a 5w30 with a better (lower) volatility should have a hotter (higher) flash point. Because it requires more energy to break those IMF's and initiate a phase change.
Now, there are always exceptions in the real world. However, I cannot pull any of them from the top of my head right now.
Hopefully it helped you a bit. I studied Chemical Engineering at UCSD. Chemistry is fun :]
If I mistakenly switched some terms around my bad. But I think it should be correct.
jorton
Thread starter
THANK YOU for participating. Your explanation helps alot.
So lower flash points gives more vapors at higher temps?
More vapor at a given temp = higher consumption?
Higher flash point is more desirable? & generally indicates higher quality base stock?
That's the way I had it understood anyway.
More vapor at a given temp = higher consumption?
Higher flash point is more desirable? & generally indicates higher quality base stock?
That's the way I had it understood anyway.
jorton
Thread starter
dtt004 said:Hi.
Now, there are always exceptions in the real world. However, I cannot pull any of them from the top of my head right now.
quote]
Inside an engine oil is being diluted/contaminated with fuel. Flash point is the measure fuel in oil. Fuel diluted/contaminated oil is bad for bearings and ring pack.
Originally Posted By: jorton
dtt004 said:Hi.
Now, there are always exceptions in the real world. However, I cannot pull any of them from the top of my head right now.
quote]
Inside an engine oil is being diluted/contaminated with fuel. Flash point is the measure fuel in oil. Fuel diluted/contaminated oil is bad for bearings and ring pack.
Isn't fuel dilution the measure of fuel?
And flash point the temp in which the oil is heated to where the vapor ignites?
So flash point in not the measure of fuel in the oil - if a fresh unused oil has no fuel, then what happens to the flash point? Heat that oil to where it vaporized, then ignite those vapors, there would be no flash point because no fuel???
Sorry but I don't buy it.
I agree the diluted oil reduces viscosity and is not desirable for bearings and ring packs as fuel is a less efficient lubricant.
Errtt -
Right, well said.
Flash point is not the measure of fuel in the oil.
Anyway, I always wondered why oil flashpoints are well below the temperatures in the combustion chamber, but there are no big deposits and residue of this . It must be the same reason why we can move our hand through a fire with practically no effect. Time spent is the key.
Right, well said.
Flash point is not the measure of fuel in the oil.
Anyway, I always wondered why oil flashpoints are well below the temperatures in the combustion chamber, but there are no big deposits and residue of this . It must be the same reason why we can move our hand through a fire with practically no effect. Time spent is the key.
Originally Posted By: Errtt
So lower flash points gives more vapors at higher temps?
More vapor at a given temp = higher consumption?
Higher flash point is more desirable? & generally indicates higher quality base stock?
That's the way I had it understood anyway.
Sorry if I created confusion. A lower flash point simply means it "burns" easier if that makes sense. It will form an ignitable vapor solution with the oxygen in the air...at a lower temperature/lower flash point.
A higher flash point is more desirable when talking about engine oil. It is indicative of a higher quality base stocks, due to the strong imtermolecular forces involved. At equivalent temperatures, an engine oil with a higher flash point will not "vaporize" and turn into an ignitable solution. However, at the same temperature, a lesser quality oil may already have reached its flash point, has turned into a gas, bonded with molecules within the air, and is easily ignitable.
Hopefully this helps!
So lower flash points gives more vapors at higher temps?
More vapor at a given temp = higher consumption?
Higher flash point is more desirable? & generally indicates higher quality base stock?
That's the way I had it understood anyway.
Sorry if I created confusion. A lower flash point simply means it "burns" easier if that makes sense. It will form an ignitable vapor solution with the oxygen in the air...at a lower temperature/lower flash point.
A higher flash point is more desirable when talking about engine oil. It is indicative of a higher quality base stocks, due to the strong imtermolecular forces involved. At equivalent temperatures, an engine oil with a higher flash point will not "vaporize" and turn into an ignitable solution. However, at the same temperature, a lesser quality oil may already have reached its flash point, has turned into a gas, bonded with molecules within the air, and is easily ignitable.
Hopefully this helps!
jorton
Thread starter
OK. I thought flash point in a UOA is used to calculate the %fuel number but I do remember seeing a report showing low FP and <.5% fuel.
jorton
Thread starter
Originally Posted By: dtt004
Hi.
A better way to look at it would be: does an oil with lower volatility, or lower vapor pressure, automatically have a higher flash point?
This is a bit of chemistry, so bear with me. Every substance has IMF (intermolecular forces) holding its atoms together. That's why there are different phases (gas, liquid, solid). The WEAKER the IMF, the HIGHER the VOLATILITY, and the HIGHER the VAPOR PRESSURE. In other words, if a substance cannot hold its atoms together very well, it will quickly transition to another phase. That's why gasoline or alcohol evaporates quickly, while water requires tremendous amount of energy to do so. On a side note, you feel cold when it evaporates off your skin because of the specific heat of the substance. Anyways,
Flash point is used in combustion engines because of the heat that serves as the energy source to initiate ignition. According to my college notes haha, the flash point is the LOWEST TEMPERATURE in which the substance will evaporate to form an ignitable mixture in air. So it makes sense to believe that when a substance has WEAKER IMF's, it will have a HIGHER VOLATILITY, and subsequently should have a LOWER FLASH POINT. So it requires less energy to reach that "lowest temperature." The opposite is true for substances with stronger IMF's.
So to put it back into your original question, a 5w30 with a better (lower) volatility should have a hotter (higher) flash point. Because it requires more energy to break those IMF's and initiate a phase change.
Now, there are always exceptions in the real world. However, I cannot pull any of them from the top of my head right now.
Hopefully it helped you a bit. I studied Chemical Engineering at UCSD. Chemistry is fun :]
If I mistakenly switched some terms around my bad. But I think it should be correct.
Hi.
A better way to look at it would be: does an oil with lower volatility, or lower vapor pressure, automatically have a higher flash point?
This is a bit of chemistry, so bear with me. Every substance has IMF (intermolecular forces) holding its atoms together. That's why there are different phases (gas, liquid, solid). The WEAKER the IMF, the HIGHER the VOLATILITY, and the HIGHER the VAPOR PRESSURE. In other words, if a substance cannot hold its atoms together very well, it will quickly transition to another phase. That's why gasoline or alcohol evaporates quickly, while water requires tremendous amount of energy to do so. On a side note, you feel cold when it evaporates off your skin because of the specific heat of the substance. Anyways,
Flash point is used in combustion engines because of the heat that serves as the energy source to initiate ignition. According to my college notes haha, the flash point is the LOWEST TEMPERATURE in which the substance will evaporate to form an ignitable mixture in air. So it makes sense to believe that when a substance has WEAKER IMF's, it will have a HIGHER VOLATILITY, and subsequently should have a LOWER FLASH POINT. So it requires less energy to reach that "lowest temperature." The opposite is true for substances with stronger IMF's.
So to put it back into your original question, a 5w30 with a better (lower) volatility should have a hotter (higher) flash point. Because it requires more energy to break those IMF's and initiate a phase change.
Now, there are always exceptions in the real world. However, I cannot pull any of them from the top of my head right now.
Hopefully it helped you a bit. I studied Chemical Engineering at UCSD. Chemistry is fun :]
If I mistakenly switched some terms around my bad. But I think it should be correct.
+1 to the contributors here, awesome stuff. Makes me feel good about using Amsoil's SSO during the summer. Good flash point, as in I shouldn't worry about the oil degrading due to it reaching its 'flash point'. It's a big number to reach, but for most cases unless a car runs very hot, you won't reach flash point without overheating. I reckon, anyway. =P
Hi guys
I just found this site and it is interesting reading. At first I thought I stumbled onto a wine tasting article. Come on guys,Its only motor oil.Just use a name brand oil of your choice and change it regularly.Your engine does not care what color bottle it comes from or flash point or any other minute spec you come up with. I have worked on my own cars for 40 years and the most important thing is regular oil changes. If you do this you will not have any engine problems that relate to oil. It really is that simple. I dont mean to upset anyone but alot of this is overkill. Use a name brand oil and filter and worry about something else.
I just found this site and it is interesting reading. At first I thought I stumbled onto a wine tasting article. Come on guys,Its only motor oil.Just use a name brand oil of your choice and change it regularly.Your engine does not care what color bottle it comes from or flash point or any other minute spec you come up with. I have worked on my own cars for 40 years and the most important thing is regular oil changes. If you do this you will not have any engine problems that relate to oil. It really is that simple. I dont mean to upset anyone but alot of this is overkill. Use a name brand oil and filter and worry about something else.
Originally Posted By: VRAY
Hi guys
I just found this site and it is interesting reading. At first I thought I stumbled onto a wine tasting article. Come on guys,Its only motor oil.Just use a name brand oil of your choice and change it regularly.Your engine does not care what color bottle it comes from or flash point or any other minute spec you come up with. I have worked on my own cars for 40 years and the most important thing is regular oil changes. If you do this you will not have any engine problems that relate to oil. It really is that simple. I dont mean to upset anyone but alot of this is overkill. Use a name brand oil and filter and worry about something else.
VRAY ^^^ I agree regular oil changes with name brand oil and with name brand filters is a good thing, but there are different engines in different locations, in different weather/temps, and doing different duties (driving conditions), and different oils & different additives will perform differently. If not, then only one oil would be needed for everybody for everything.
On one of my older Harley bikes, when I bought it, it had been using dino oil. Every month I had to top off the oil to maintain level. Well when it came to an oil change one time, I decided to try Amsoil. It was (is) 20w-50, the same grade of the dino I was using prior. Well after I switched to the Amsoil, my oil consumption was drastically reduced. I think I topped off the oil level only a twice in the last year, and the year before, and that was with very little oil to maintain the level. Not on the low mark at all. A big difference in oil consumption. The top end doesn't knock like it did with dino after hard runs.
I don't know, don't recall, but at the time when I made the switch to Amsoil, one of the things that came to mind at the time was maybe the oil consumption may have something to do with the flash point. Still don't recall, but I think the Amsoil when I checked at the time was over 500 spec. So I was assuming the consumption was the dino lower flash point vapor loss on hot cylinder walls.
I changed to Amsoil with a high flash point, now I use so very little oil in a year. I might have used 1/8 of a quart at most per year of Amsoil, when before with dino, I was using more than that in a month.
If I remember correctly, back a few years ago, I couldn't at the time find the zinc pack spec for Amsoil. That did concern a little at the time, but after seeing how the oil performed, I lost that concern.
I have been doing oil changes for nearly 40 years myself, and if I just used any oil in some of the engines I worked on, the results wouldn't be in best practice. The GE diesel locomotive engines, you do not just throw any diesel engine oil into it. The bearing are heavy in silver and yellow metals. A low zinc pack oil is necessary. The oils for it has improved. We used Chevron Delo 6170 CFO 40 back then. That has been replaced with Delo 710 LE. It meets GE approval because of the additives, and mainly a big part is the zinc level. If I would have used just any name brand oil with regular oil changes, I'd be tearing up that engine shorting life expectancy. I could have used Wolf's Head or something to save money in oil cost, but I wouldn't be saving money in engine wear & tear. Besides, GE had a list of approved oils - if it wasn't on the list then it wasn't considered for our use. I'd probably loose my job over it. And the GE locomotive engines are much smaller than some ship engines I worked on. Imagine the cost if I destroyed one of those because I just used any "Name Brand" oil.
Read how some clean up their engines just by switching oils, and many other results. They are not all the same as far as I'm concerned.
I respectfully can't agree on the use of just any name brand oil and regular oil changes. Severe duty would/should shorten OCIs because the the add-pack retention levels.
Hi guys
I just found this site and it is interesting reading. At first I thought I stumbled onto a wine tasting article. Come on guys,Its only motor oil.Just use a name brand oil of your choice and change it regularly.Your engine does not care what color bottle it comes from or flash point or any other minute spec you come up with. I have worked on my own cars for 40 years and the most important thing is regular oil changes. If you do this you will not have any engine problems that relate to oil. It really is that simple. I dont mean to upset anyone but alot of this is overkill. Use a name brand oil and filter and worry about something else.
VRAY ^^^ I agree regular oil changes with name brand oil and with name brand filters is a good thing, but there are different engines in different locations, in different weather/temps, and doing different duties (driving conditions), and different oils & different additives will perform differently. If not, then only one oil would be needed for everybody for everything.
On one of my older Harley bikes, when I bought it, it had been using dino oil. Every month I had to top off the oil to maintain level. Well when it came to an oil change one time, I decided to try Amsoil. It was (is) 20w-50, the same grade of the dino I was using prior. Well after I switched to the Amsoil, my oil consumption was drastically reduced. I think I topped off the oil level only a twice in the last year, and the year before, and that was with very little oil to maintain the level. Not on the low mark at all. A big difference in oil consumption. The top end doesn't knock like it did with dino after hard runs.
I don't know, don't recall, but at the time when I made the switch to Amsoil, one of the things that came to mind at the time was maybe the oil consumption may have something to do with the flash point. Still don't recall, but I think the Amsoil when I checked at the time was over 500 spec. So I was assuming the consumption was the dino lower flash point vapor loss on hot cylinder walls.
I changed to Amsoil with a high flash point, now I use so very little oil in a year. I might have used 1/8 of a quart at most per year of Amsoil, when before with dino, I was using more than that in a month.
If I remember correctly, back a few years ago, I couldn't at the time find the zinc pack spec for Amsoil. That did concern a little at the time, but after seeing how the oil performed, I lost that concern.
I have been doing oil changes for nearly 40 years myself, and if I just used any oil in some of the engines I worked on, the results wouldn't be in best practice. The GE diesel locomotive engines, you do not just throw any diesel engine oil into it. The bearing are heavy in silver and yellow metals. A low zinc pack oil is necessary. The oils for it has improved. We used Chevron Delo 6170 CFO 40 back then. That has been replaced with Delo 710 LE. It meets GE approval because of the additives, and mainly a big part is the zinc level. If I would have used just any name brand oil with regular oil changes, I'd be tearing up that engine shorting life expectancy. I could have used Wolf's Head or something to save money in oil cost, but I wouldn't be saving money in engine wear & tear. Besides, GE had a list of approved oils - if it wasn't on the list then it wasn't considered for our use. I'd probably loose my job over it. And the GE locomotive engines are much smaller than some ship engines I worked on. Imagine the cost if I destroyed one of those because I just used any "Name Brand" oil.
Read how some clean up their engines just by switching oils, and many other results. They are not all the same as far as I'm concerned.
I respectfully can't agree on the use of just any name brand oil and regular oil changes. Severe duty would/should shorten OCIs because the the add-pack retention levels.
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