A Warning About Alignments
- Thread starter The Critic
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Originally Posted By: The Critic
In order to get a good wheel alignment, these items must be true:
1) Regardless of the alignment rack used, the alignment is only as good as the technician.
2) The machine must be accurate. Therefore, the alignment system must be serviced periodically by the manufacturer.
3) The proper alignment procedure should be followed, since it can vary significantly from model to model.
Earlier this week, I installed a set of Prius Plus Performance lowering springs. After installation, it was evident that an alignment was needed. So, after driving for three days and about 150 miles, I visited a Sears store to get a free alignment check. (FYI, Sears uses a new proprietary system from... service drive.)
These were the results from the Sears Alignment Check:
As expected, the front toe was off the charts. The rear toe and camber, while not perfect, seem reasonable considering that the car is now lowered. In the future, I will need to install a EZ shim and SPC spacers to better adjust the toe, but for now it is passable.
Since I have a Firestone lifetime alignment policy, I drove across the parking lot and had Firestone perform an alignment.
Firestone only adjusted the front toe only, as requested. However, do note the huge differences in the other readings compared to the Sears alignment check results.
First, the measured value for left-front camber is fairly similar between the two printouts. The left-rear and right-rear toe readings though, are very different. According to Firestone, I have 0.42deg of toe-in on the LR, but Sears' alignment sensors are stating that I have about 0.25deg of toe-in. This is a 0.17 deg difference between the two readings!
I am not entirely sure what happened, since the sensors were mounted properly in both cases and readings were taken in the correct manner, but the results are very different. This is not comforting at all.
Obviously I will need to have a 3rd opinion, because now I am not sure whose numbers are correct. Someone needs to get their alignment system serviced by Hunter.
As it proves time and time again, chain shops generally cater to a lower quality standard than expert alignment shops and dealerships. It typically takes me three visits to get a "passable" alignment from Firestone, which is quite inefficient. Usually they leave the steering wheel off-center, which they did again this time. Despite how cheaply their lifetime alignment plan is priced, the repeated visits are very frustrating.
Also, Firestone does not always do a zero-point calibration after an alignment, despite having the Hunter codelink tool and the WinAlign software prompting them to do it. Luckily I have the Toyota Techstream Lite software so I do not have to rely on them.
Moral of the story? Find someone competent to do your alignments, and chain shops can be a real [censored]. And if some chain shops are not already bad enough, having a questionable alignment rack only makes matters a lot worse!
Different result is common for torsion-beam suspension, especially with toyota that allow some toe correction when the height changes. To have similar result, the height of the car need to be the same (need to bounce the body a few times and measure the height).
In order to get a good wheel alignment, these items must be true:
1) Regardless of the alignment rack used, the alignment is only as good as the technician.
2) The machine must be accurate. Therefore, the alignment system must be serviced periodically by the manufacturer.
3) The proper alignment procedure should be followed, since it can vary significantly from model to model.
Earlier this week, I installed a set of Prius Plus Performance lowering springs. After installation, it was evident that an alignment was needed. So, after driving for three days and about 150 miles, I visited a Sears store to get a free alignment check. (FYI, Sears uses a new proprietary system from... service drive.)
These were the results from the Sears Alignment Check:
As expected, the front toe was off the charts. The rear toe and camber, while not perfect, seem reasonable considering that the car is now lowered. In the future, I will need to install a EZ shim and SPC spacers to better adjust the toe, but for now it is passable.
Since I have a Firestone lifetime alignment policy, I drove across the parking lot and had Firestone perform an alignment.
Firestone only adjusted the front toe only, as requested. However, do note the huge differences in the other readings compared to the Sears alignment check results.
First, the measured value for left-front camber is fairly similar between the two printouts. The left-rear and right-rear toe readings though, are very different. According to Firestone, I have 0.42deg of toe-in on the LR, but Sears' alignment sensors are stating that I have about 0.25deg of toe-in. This is a 0.17 deg difference between the two readings!
I am not entirely sure what happened, since the sensors were mounted properly in both cases and readings were taken in the correct manner, but the results are very different. This is not comforting at all.
Obviously I will need to have a 3rd opinion, because now I am not sure whose numbers are correct. Someone needs to get their alignment system serviced by Hunter.
As it proves time and time again, chain shops generally cater to a lower quality standard than expert alignment shops and dealerships. It typically takes me three visits to get a "passable" alignment from Firestone, which is quite inefficient. Usually they leave the steering wheel off-center, which they did again this time. Despite how cheaply their lifetime alignment plan is priced, the repeated visits are very frustrating.
Also, Firestone does not always do a zero-point calibration after an alignment, despite having the Hunter codelink tool and the WinAlign software prompting them to do it. Luckily I have the Toyota Techstream Lite software so I do not have to rely on them.
Moral of the story? Find someone competent to do your alignments, and chain shops can be a real [censored]. And if some chain shops are not already bad enough, having a questionable alignment rack only makes matters a lot worse!
Different result is common for torsion-beam suspension, especially with toyota that allow some toe correction when the height changes. To have similar result, the height of the car need to be the same (need to bounce the body a few times and measure the height).
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: ARB1977
Take it to the dealer.
Who takes it down the street to the Sears store.. (really!)
Exactly. Toyota dealer started doing tyres a few years ago. I said I don't notice your tyre store and balancing equipment etc. Oh no, they said, they take it around the corner any joe blow can drive up to...
Originally Posted By: ARB1977
Take it to the dealer.
Who takes it down the street to the Sears store.. (really!)
Exactly. Toyota dealer started doing tyres a few years ago. I said I don't notice your tyre store and balancing equipment etc. Oh no, they said, they take it around the corner any joe blow can drive up to...
Originally Posted By: Russell
Thank you
To align my BMW (only toe-in can be adjusted) you are supposed to have a full tank and place appropiate weights in seats to simulate a loaded vehicle. Do you think any shop does this?
Actually the owners manual for the BMW suggests to use the mother-in-law as the weight.
Thank you
To align my BMW (only toe-in can be adjusted) you are supposed to have a full tank and place appropiate weights in seats to simulate a loaded vehicle. Do you think any shop does this?
Actually the owners manual for the BMW suggests to use the mother-in-law as the weight.
Originally Posted By: mpvue
somewhere there is a forum for alignment shop techs, and the thread would go something like this:
sears guy: some jackoff in a prius came in today for an alignment check, we showed him he was way off, and you know what? he wouldn't trust us to do the alignment! THEN, he goes across the street to the firestone place! yeah, good luck with THAT lol...
firestone guy: yeah, he came in (AGAIN) to get his alignment done, moron is always telling us how to do our job! yeah, i is certified man! anyways, we do a quicky aligmnet (boss dont want us wastin time on the freebies) an then he comes back all like 'yo, it still aint right!' so Im like, ok, we'll do it again, and we put it right back where it was and fill his tires, and he goes 'oh, it's much better now! LOLZ...
I had a good belly laugh at this...
As far as dedicated alignment shops, there are several that I know of in the Bronx NY (where I work). They aren't much more expensive than the chain shops.
somewhere there is a forum for alignment shop techs, and the thread would go something like this:
sears guy: some jackoff in a prius came in today for an alignment check, we showed him he was way off, and you know what? he wouldn't trust us to do the alignment! THEN, he goes across the street to the firestone place! yeah, good luck with THAT lol...
firestone guy: yeah, he came in (AGAIN) to get his alignment done, moron is always telling us how to do our job! yeah, i is certified man! anyways, we do a quicky aligmnet (boss dont want us wastin time on the freebies) an then he comes back all like 'yo, it still aint right!' so Im like, ok, we'll do it again, and we put it right back where it was and fill his tires, and he goes 'oh, it's much better now! LOLZ...
I had a good belly laugh at this...
As far as dedicated alignment shops, there are several that I know of in the Bronx NY (where I work). They aren't much more expensive than the chain shops.
Originally Posted By: CROWNVIC4LIFE
Originally Posted By: ARB1977
Take it to the dealer.
This^^^^
I will never figure out why so many people here think tire shops do better work then the dealership..Down here in my neck of the woods the bulk of the tire shops are nightmares.
If I were car shopping and saw receipts that the car was serviced at Tire Kingdom,Firestone,Goodyear or any of those places I would not even think of buying that car..Just IMHO!
As much as I hate the dealer they really do the best Alignments.
Yes, I can pay $199 (that's NOT a typo) to have the dealer take my car to Midas...or I can pay $60 to have Town Fair Tire align it. No, I'll stay with TF!
Originally Posted By: ARB1977
Take it to the dealer.
This^^^^
I will never figure out why so many people here think tire shops do better work then the dealership..Down here in my neck of the woods the bulk of the tire shops are nightmares.
If I were car shopping and saw receipts that the car was serviced at Tire Kingdom,Firestone,Goodyear or any of those places I would not even think of buying that car..Just IMHO!
As much as I hate the dealer they really do the best Alignments.
Yes, I can pay $199 (that's NOT a typo) to have the dealer take my car to Midas...or I can pay $60 to have Town Fair Tire align it. No, I'll stay with TF!
Originally Posted By: pbm
Originally Posted By: mpvue
somewhere there is a forum for alignment shop techs, and the thread would go something like this:
sears guy: some jackoff in a prius came in today for an alignment check, we showed him he was way off, and you know what? he wouldn't trust us to do the alignment! THEN, he goes across the street to the firestone place! yeah, good luck with THAT lol...
firestone guy: yeah, he came in (AGAIN) to get his alignment done, moron is always telling us how to do our job! yeah, i is certified man! anyways, we do a quicky aligmnet (boss dont want us wastin time on the freebies) an then he comes back all like 'yo, it still aint right!' so Im like, ok, we'll do it again, and we put it right back where it was and fill his tires, and he goes 'oh, it's much better now! LOLZ...
I had a good belly laugh at this...
+1 on the belly laugh. Very creative, enjoyed it.
How do you know Sears was right and Firestone was wrong?
As a consumer, even a semi-discerning one, seems like there's lot's room for being scammed on alignments. IIRC, I've had one in the ~15 years, at a Honda dealer. New set of tires, wear seemed decent/acceptable but no alignment ever done, car 7-8 years old. Dealer puts it on rack, later comes back with print out and says everything in spec, doesn't center spec, and charges ~$60. Basically $60 for an alignment check. Won't be getting another again now, unless there is significant uneven wear.
Originally Posted By: mpvue
somewhere there is a forum for alignment shop techs, and the thread would go something like this:
sears guy: some jackoff in a prius came in today for an alignment check, we showed him he was way off, and you know what? he wouldn't trust us to do the alignment! THEN, he goes across the street to the firestone place! yeah, good luck with THAT lol...
firestone guy: yeah, he came in (AGAIN) to get his alignment done, moron is always telling us how to do our job! yeah, i is certified man! anyways, we do a quicky aligmnet (boss dont want us wastin time on the freebies) an then he comes back all like 'yo, it still aint right!' so Im like, ok, we'll do it again, and we put it right back where it was and fill his tires, and he goes 'oh, it's much better now! LOLZ...
I had a good belly laugh at this...
+1 on the belly laugh. Very creative, enjoyed it.
How do you know Sears was right and Firestone was wrong?
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Yes, I can pay $199 (that's NOT a typo) to have the dealer take my car to Midas...or I can pay $60 to have Town Fair Tire align it. No, I'll stay with TF!
I paid 65 bucks a couple of months ago for a 4 wheel alignment at Ford after getting new tires..I would not consider taking my car to clowns at a tire shop or a so called alignment specialist..Just IMHO.
Yes, I can pay $199 (that's NOT a typo) to have the dealer take my car to Midas...or I can pay $60 to have Town Fair Tire align it. No, I'll stay with TF!
I paid 65 bucks a couple of months ago for a 4 wheel alignment at Ford after getting new tires..I would not consider taking my car to clowns at a tire shop or a so called alignment specialist..Just IMHO.
Originally Posted By: CROWNVIC4LIFE
I paid 65 bucks a couple of months ago for a 4 wheel alignment at Ford after getting new tires..I would not consider taking my car to clowns at a tire shop or a so called alignment specialist..Just IMHO.
That's a good deal... as always, dealers vary. Some do handle tires and alignments themselves and do a very good job at it.
Last time I bought tires, I got them on a buy 3 get 1 free deal at a KIA dealer... they didn't try to slip any extra fees in like most tire shops (such as a TPMS fee). When I asked about the alignment they said they would check it, and if was in spec, no charge... if not then it would be $75. Everything was good with the alignment and I drove off for just under $350. Of course these were not top of the line tires, but they were (and still are) good tires. Tires have gone up in price since then like everything else, so I don't expect this good of a deal next time.
It is definitely possible to get a good deal on tires from dealers, but as always, it depends on the individual dealer. There are good tire shops too (mostly local places).
I paid 65 bucks a couple of months ago for a 4 wheel alignment at Ford after getting new tires..I would not consider taking my car to clowns at a tire shop or a so called alignment specialist..Just IMHO.
That's a good deal... as always, dealers vary. Some do handle tires and alignments themselves and do a very good job at it.
Last time I bought tires, I got them on a buy 3 get 1 free deal at a KIA dealer... they didn't try to slip any extra fees in like most tire shops (such as a TPMS fee). When I asked about the alignment they said they would check it, and if was in spec, no charge... if not then it would be $75. Everything was good with the alignment and I drove off for just under $350. Of course these were not top of the line tires, but they were (and still are) good tires. Tires have gone up in price since then like everything else, so I don't expect this good of a deal next time.
It is definitely possible to get a good deal on tires from dealers, but as always, it depends on the individual dealer. There are good tire shops too (mostly local places).
Last edited:
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Wait, you lowered a Prius? LOL!
^ That was my thought too. But then I realized I cammed a Jeep, so...
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: rslifkin
^ That was my thought too. But then I realized I cammed a Jeep, so...
And I hopped up a Town Car.... touche.
^ That was my thought too. But then I realized I cammed a Jeep, so...
And I hopped up a Town Car.... touche.
Originally Posted By: CROWNVIC4LIFE
Originally Posted By: ARB1977
Take it to the dealer.
If I were car shopping and saw receipts that the car was serviced at Tire Kingdom,Firestone,Goodyear or any of those places I would not even think of buying that car..Just IMHO!
As much as I hate the dealer they really do the best Alignments.
I agree with you on both points! I do some auto repair side work and cannot even put into words some of the monstrosities I have seen as far as work quality from Good Year, Firestone and such. OMG! is all I can say...and these people who had work done ther paid a pretty penny for the shoddy work.
My experience with Alignments are also - go to the dealer if they actually do alignments in house. I took my 2006 GMC Sierra Denali to a discount chain once and pulled it out because they were not smart enough to select "Seirra Denali AWD 6.0L 20" wheels" on the screen...they just clicked on the first option "Seirra pickup 4WD 17" wheels" which is wrong. I EVEN GAVE them the GM spec for my truck and they would not use it. There is actually a different alignment spec for my Denali over the other models. If I had let them do the job I would have left with the wrong settings!!
I went to the local GMC dealer and felt at ease that they happily listened to my concerns about the right specs and they stapled my spec sheet to the work order. Got a good alingment that day!
Originally Posted By: ARB1977
Take it to the dealer.
If I were car shopping and saw receipts that the car was serviced at Tire Kingdom,Firestone,Goodyear or any of those places I would not even think of buying that car..Just IMHO!
As much as I hate the dealer they really do the best Alignments.
I agree with you on both points! I do some auto repair side work and cannot even put into words some of the monstrosities I have seen as far as work quality from Good Year, Firestone and such. OMG! is all I can say...and these people who had work done ther paid a pretty penny for the shoddy work.
My experience with Alignments are also - go to the dealer if they actually do alignments in house. I took my 2006 GMC Sierra Denali to a discount chain once and pulled it out because they were not smart enough to select "Seirra Denali AWD 6.0L 20" wheels" on the screen...they just clicked on the first option "Seirra pickup 4WD 17" wheels" which is wrong. I EVEN GAVE them the GM spec for my truck and they would not use it. There is actually a different alignment spec for my Denali over the other models. If I had let them do the job I would have left with the wrong settings!!
I went to the local GMC dealer and felt at ease that they happily listened to my concerns about the right specs and they stapled my spec sheet to the work order. Got a good alingment that day!
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Wait, you lowered a Prius? LOL!
Definitely the funniest part of this thread.
Wait, you lowered a Prius? LOL!
Definitely the funniest part of this thread.
I actually wish I had taken my Sonata to the dealer for its last alignment.
The shop I took it to only set the toe. They told me the other settings weren't adjustable. After I got home I looked it up and found out they were wrong.
I would have been willing to pay more for a camber kit or additional adjustments. It appeared this tech at Midas didn't really know what he was doing.
But, it was cheap. I guess I still got what I paid for...
The shop I took it to only set the toe. They told me the other settings weren't adjustable. After I got home I looked it up and found out they were wrong.
I would have been willing to pay more for a camber kit or additional adjustments. It appeared this tech at Midas didn't really know what he was doing.
But, it was cheap. I guess I still got what I paid for...
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
You're right. I've even witnessed shops not check the air in the tires before an alignment, which is pretty basic actually.
This.
A good alignment tech will inspect and adjust tire pressure, and then do an inspection of the suspension, ball-joints, tie rods, bushings etc, to determine that is in good shape before doing an alignment. I think the 'hey it's green so its good alignment shops' don't bother to do these very basic checks before performing an alignment; they just want the money. When I took a brakes and suspension class at the local city college, our instructor said it is supposed to be standard/industry practice to do a pre-check to make sure the suspension is in good shape.
I'm glad I've found a good alignment shop in my town, all he does is alignments (and brakes), Bill's Alignment off Moffat Blvd in Manteca. I've taken my car to the dealer and to tire shops, not good experiences, especially when the dealer doesn't do the alignments in-house, they use the tire shop down the street. And I don't feel like driving a couple towns over to find a dealer that does them in-house.
You're right. I've even witnessed shops not check the air in the tires before an alignment, which is pretty basic actually.
This.
A good alignment tech will inspect and adjust tire pressure, and then do an inspection of the suspension, ball-joints, tie rods, bushings etc, to determine that is in good shape before doing an alignment. I think the 'hey it's green so its good alignment shops' don't bother to do these very basic checks before performing an alignment; they just want the money. When I took a brakes and suspension class at the local city college, our instructor said it is supposed to be standard/industry practice to do a pre-check to make sure the suspension is in good shape.
I'm glad I've found a good alignment shop in my town, all he does is alignments (and brakes), Bill's Alignment off Moffat Blvd in Manteca. I've taken my car to the dealer and to tire shops, not good experiences, especially when the dealer doesn't do the alignments in-house, they use the tire shop down the street. And I don't feel like driving a couple towns over to find a dealer that does them in-house.
Alignments are NOT locked in. They move all the time. The bushings flex. Add everything up, and you will get discrepancies.
A static alignment is our best guess at dynamic alignment.
Expect some differences.
You can use a number of home contraptions to get a good toe reading.
A static alignment is our best guess at dynamic alignment.
Expect some differences.
You can use a number of home contraptions to get a good toe reading.
Just because a shop has high-end alignment rack/equipment/software it comes down to the technician doing the work that makes a huge difference in the outcome of the work.
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