A Target near me closed down due to a fire

[y_p_w]

Not to the level in CA, it's out of control there. I don't see this in the mid west or better parts of the east coast.

Prop 47 for anyone who doesn't know allows people to steal up to $950 worth of merchandise and not be charged with a felony, so the police won't even show up if a hoard of thugs storms into a Walgreens, jumps over the pharmacy counter and take all of the Sudafed and empty out the nail polish section.

You must be living in a bubble, its not like this in the more civilized parts of the US, you know where laws are enforced. If it were happening everywhere then that would be on the news as well. California gets the press because it is out of control exponentially, most of the MSM is favorable to CA. Unless its on fire.

Who would have thought being soft on crime would result in stores being ransacked by mobs and occasionally burned down? Now its forbidden to say shop lifting is bad too or describing the perpetrator lol. Well deserved California, but this is what you get. I am watching this carnage from afar and laughing morbidly, sorry, not sorry.

A task force catching a few theft rings or changing traffic patterns around the store won't put a dent into this. Enjoy your new normal.

No wonder there is an exodus from CA. Walgreens closed 5 stores in San Francisco, is that normal? How is ol' mammy gonna get her insulin? I don't see this happening in red states, not to the degree in SF.

Nah. I remember seeing an analysis of the Walgreen's stores closing in San Francisco, and the conclusion was that it wasn't related to shoplifting because those stores weren't the worst in the city for that. It seemed more like a business decision since they're so ridiculous overextended (still have 50 stores) and that they likely picked the stores where the leases were expiring. Walgreen's is closing hundreds of stores around the county, but San Francisco someone gets singled out and where Walgreen's can blame shoplifting rather than their piss-poor over expansion. The joke in San Francisco is that there's a Walgreen's nearly on every block like Starbucks. If you think they're going to have any problem finding a pharmacy when there are still over 50 Walgreens, 20 CVS, Rite-Aid, Safeway, Independents, and hospitals (UCSF, SF General, etc.) then I don't know if you're going to ever be convinced that there's no problem.

Pharmacies in San Francisco California Find local including 24 HR Pharmacy Locations on RxList

Find a local San Francisco California pharmacy location, including 24 hr pharmacies, to help with your medications and drugs and fill your prescriptions.

www.rxlist.com

Why Walgreens is in Trouble in San Francisco and is Closing Some Stores: It’s Not Shoplifting, that’s an Artful Distraction from the Real Reasons

Caught up in the brick-and-mortar meltdown, it faces its own botched decisions and a market that has horribly turned against its pharmacies.

wolfstreet.com

But in San Francisco, there is a pile of huge reasons, including: The brick-and-mortar melt-down that is particularly harsh because people are ecommerce fanatics here; working from home that messed up Walgreens’ most concentrated area, the Financial District; and the unique market for pharmacies in San Francisco that Walgreens tried to monopolize and got caught with its pants down.​

​

What got Walgreens’ statement about a few store closures in San Francisco – rather than the 595 store closures nationwide – regurgitated in the global clickbait media was the reason it gave for those closures. It’s the San Francisco clickbait that goes viral because the role San Francisco plays in the US is as entertainment: “Look what these crazies are doing again in San Francisco.”​

********​

In its annual report (10-K filing with the SEC) for fiscal year through August 31, Walgreens disclosed that “store damage and inventory losses due to looting” in the US, net of insurance recoveries, for the past three years combined amounted to $68 million, with an M.​

********​

In San Francisco, a commercial lease can be negotiated for any term, but the typical retail store lease is for 10 years. Walgreens isn’t going to break the lease. It’s going to close the store when the lease comes up for renewal. And it knows years in advance when that is, and it makes lease-renewal decisions well in advance of closing the store. This is routine corporate planning to cut costs.​

*******​

Despite the store closures in San Francisco, Walgreens still has 53 stores left, according to the San Francisco Chronicle. San Francisco is about 7 miles by 7 miles. You can walk across it in less than two hours. In and around the Financial District, there is a Walgreens every few blocks.​

​

In my neighborhood, Walgreens closed the store in the NorthPoint Centre that was two blocks from its store in the old Tower Records Annex on Columbus Avenue. And the Columbus store is partially geared to serving tourists that wander by (sandwiches, bottled drinks, chips, emergency tourist supplies, etc., along with neighborhood functions, such as emergency toys or chocolates for the nearly forgotten wedding anniversary, to serving as a FedEx drop-off and pick-up point.​

********​

I suspect that Walgreens will close many of those stores around the Financial District when their leases come up for renewal, and each time, it will say that it’s because of shoplifting, instead of the real reasons: Its own catastrophic decision making in prior years, the brick-and-mortar meltdown, working from home, and the peculiarities of the prescription drug market in San Francisco.​

 

[Owen Lucas]

Nah. I remember seeing an analysis of the Walgreen's stores closing in San Francisco, and the conclusion was that it wasn't related to shoplifting because those stores weren't the worst in the city for that. It seemed more like a business decision since they're so ridiculous overextended (still have 50 stores) and that they likely picked the stores where the leases were expiring. Walgreen's is closing hundreds of stores around the county, but San Francisco someone gets singled out and where Walgreen's can blame shoplifting rather than their piss-poor over expansion. The joke in San Francisco is that there's a Walgreen's nearly on every block like Starbucks. If you think they're going to have any problem finding a pharmacy when there are still over 50 Walgreens, 20 CVS, Rite-Aid, Safeway, Independents, and hospitals (UCSF, SF General, etc.) then I don't know if you're going to ever be convinced that there's no problem.

Pharmacies in San Francisco California Find local including 24 HR Pharmacy Locations on RxList

Find a local San Francisco California pharmacy location, including 24 hr pharmacies, to help with your medications and drugs and fill your prescriptions.

www.rxlist.com

Why Walgreens is in Trouble in San Francisco and is Closing Some Stores: It’s Not Shoplifting, that’s an Artful Distraction from the Real Reasons

Caught up in the brick-and-mortar meltdown, it faces its own botched decisions and a market that has horribly turned against its pharmacies.

wolfstreet.com

But in San Francisco, there is a pile of huge reasons, including: The brick-and-mortar melt-down that is particularly harsh because people are ecommerce fanatics here; working from home that messed up Walgreens’ most concentrated area, the Financial District; and the unique market for pharmacies in San Francisco that Walgreens tried to monopolize and got caught with its pants down.​

​

What got Walgreens’ statement about a few store closures in San Francisco – rather than the 595 store closures nationwide – regurgitated in the global clickbait media was the reason it gave for those closures. It’s the San Francisco clickbait that goes viral because the role San Francisco plays in the US is as entertainment: “Look what these crazies are doing again in San Francisco.”​

********​

In its annual report (10-K filing with the SEC) for fiscal year through August 31, Walgreens disclosed that “store damage and inventory losses due to looting” in the US, net of insurance recoveries, for the past three years combined amounted to $68 million, with an M.​

********​

In San Francisco, a commercial lease can be negotiated for any term, but the typical retail store lease is for 10 years. Walgreens isn’t going to break the lease. It’s going to close the store when the lease comes up for renewal. And it knows years in advance when that is, and it makes lease-renewal decisions well in advance of closing the store. This is routine corporate planning to cut costs.​

*******​

Despite the store closures in San Francisco, Walgreens still has 53 stores left, according to the San Francisco Chronicle. San Francisco is about 7 miles by 7 miles. You can walk across it in less than two hours. In and around the Financial District, there is a Walgreens every few blocks.​

​

In my neighborhood, Walgreens closed the store in the NorthPoint Centre that was two blocks from its store in the old Tower Records Annex on Columbus Avenue. And the Columbus store is partially geared to serving tourists that wander by (sandwiches, bottled drinks, chips, emergency tourist supplies, etc., along with neighborhood functions, such as emergency toys or chocolates for the nearly forgotten wedding anniversary, to serving as a FedEx drop-off and pick-up point.​

********​

I suspect that Walgreens will close many of those stores around the Financial District when their leases come up for renewal, and each time, it will say that it’s because of shoplifting, instead of the real reasons: Its own catastrophic decision making in prior years, the brick-and-mortar meltdown, working from home, and the peculiarities of the prescription drug market in San Francisco.​

According to Walgreens, next month it will close its following SF locations: 2550 Ocean Ave., 4645 Mission St., 745 Clement St., 300 Gough St., and 3400 Cesar Chavez St.

“Due to ongoing organized retail crime, we have made the difficult decision to close five stores across San Francisco,” Walgreens said in a statement Tuesday.

Norberg-Brown says it’s not uncommon to see people stealing at her neighborhood Walgreens in the Outer Mission.

“People getting necessities like toilet paper and dish soap and tooth – well not toothpaste – they locked that up now – they’re getting necessities,” she said. “Walking right out.”

Recently, Safai has been working with Walgreens and other retailers to find solutions to rampant and increasingly brazen retail thefts happening throughout the city.

The whole "saturation" argument seems really suspect. All of the articles defending SF crime are using this idea, seems like a coordinated defense, plus Walgreens themselves disproved this. Looking forward to seeing how the high end stores in the Union Square area handle the recent flash mob robberies. Will probably start locking their doors and being appointment only, and if that looks too bad for the brand then hiring police for store security and becoming a loss leader for the company? I personally wouldn't want to shop in person with that looming over my head, but hey more police presence might fix this...if there is funding?

It's a shame, I love SF and have been to some of these Walgreens my self many times. Been accosted by homeless, literally had to avoid needles and feces on the sidewalk numerous times (there's an app specifically for people in SF to report where people are crapping in the street: SnapCrap). Was on a tram on time and a lady was screaming off the top of her lungs talking to some imaginary people, obviously mentally ill. So it's not just the news disproportionately bashing SF, I've seen it myself. Even NYC was better until recently. All those millions for public safety, homelessness and mental health and this is what happens, kind of unfair to the poor and needy. I don't see this in other areas of the country, not to this level.

Walgreens to Close 5 San Francisco Stores Due to Increasing Retail Theft

Retail chain Walgreens announced Tuesday it is closing five of its San Francisco stores due to retail theft.

sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com

“Organized retail crime continues to be a challenge facing retailers across San Francisco, and we are not immune to that. Retail theft across our San Francisco stores has continued to increase in the past few months to five times our chain average. During this time to help combat this issue, we increased our investments in security measures in stores across the city to 46 times our chain average in an effort to provide a safe environment,” the company said.

Upon hearing the news, San Francisco supervisor Ahsha Safai said the closures would severely impact children, families and seniors, many of whom get their prescription medications from Walgreens pharmacies.

“I am completely devastated by this news. This closure will significantly impact this community. This Walgreens is less than a mile from seven schools and has been a staple for families and children for decades,” he said of the Mission Street location. “The city needs to act with a sense of urgency to reduce and deter the number of incidents of commercial retail theft.”

 

[y_p_w]

According to Walgreens, next month it will close its following SF locations: 2550 Ocean Ave., 4645 Mission St., 745 Clement St., 300 Gough St., and 3400 Cesar Chavez St.

“Due to ongoing organized retail crime, we have made the difficult decision to close five stores across San Francisco,” Walgreens said in a statement Tuesday.

Norberg-Brown says it’s not uncommon to see people stealing at her neighborhood Walgreens in the Outer Mission.

“People getting necessities like toilet paper and dish soap and tooth – well not toothpaste – they locked that up now – they’re getting necessities,” she said. “Walking right out.”

Recently, Safai has been working with Walgreens and other retailers to find solutions to rampant and increasingly brazen retail thefts happening throughout the city.

The whole "saturation" argument seems really suspect. All of the articles defending SF crime are using this idea, seems like a coordinated defense, plus Walgreens themselves disproved this. Looking forward to seeing how the high end stores in the Union Square area handle the recent flash mob robberies. Will probably start locking their doors and being appointment only, and if that looks too bad for the brand then hiring police for store security and becoming a loss leader for the company? I personally wouldn't want to shop in person with that looming over my head, but hey more police presence might fix this...if there is funding?

It's a shame, I love SF and have been to some of these Walgreens my self many times. Been accosted by homeless, literally had to avoid needles and feces on the sidewalk numerous times (there's an app specifically for people in SF to report where people are crapping in the street: SnapCrap). Was on a tram on time and a lady was screaming off the top of her lungs talking to some imaginary people, obviously mentally ill. So it's not just the news disproportionately bashing SF. Even NYC was better until recently. All those millions for public safety, homelessness and mental health and this is what happens, kind of unfair to the poor and needy. I don't see this in other areas of the country, not to this level.

Walgreens to Close 5 San Francisco Stores Due to Increasing Retail Theft

Retail chain Walgreens announced Tuesday it is closing five of its San Francisco stores due to retail theft.

sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com

“Organized retail crime continues to be a challenge facing retailers across San Francisco, and we are not immune to that. Retail theft across our San Francisco stores has continued to increase in the past few months to five times our chain average. During this time to help combat this issue, we increased our investments in security measures in stores across the city to 46 times our chain average in an effort to provide a safe environment,” the company said.

Upon hearing the news, San Francisco supervisor Ahsha Safai said the closures would severely impact children, families and seniors, many of whom get their prescription medications from Walgreens pharmacies.

“I am completely devastated by this news. This closure will significantly impact this community. This Walgreens is less than a mile from seven schools and has been a staple for families and children for decades,” he said of the Mission Street location. “The city needs to act with a sense of urgency to reduce and deter the number of incidents of commercial retail theft.”

Again - it's just an excuse. If it was really about shoplifting, they would be shutting down the stores that had the most shoplifting.

Will you at least back off from your claim that patients would have difficulty getting their prescriptions filled in San Francisco? Someone whose Walgreens closes in some rural town in Mississippi might have a problem, but not someone in San Francisco where there are about 100 pharmacies.

I get why a Supervisor might complain, but that location closing is at 4645 Mission St. is so close to other options. I personally don't buy much at Walgreens unless I'm on vacation and I can't find something cheaper on short notice. I find CVS has better prices.

There's a Safeway with a pharmacy a quarter mile away.

4645 Mission St to Safeway Pharmacy

www.google.com

Or Central Drug.

4645 Mission St to Central Drug Store

www.google.com

Daniels Pharmacy.

4645 Mission St to Daniels Pharmacy

www.google.com

Walgreens on Geneva.

4645 Mission St to Walgreens

www.google.com

Walgreens on Ocean.

4645 Mission St to Walgreens

www.google.com

Walgreens on Mission in Daly City.

4645 Mission St to Walgreens

www.google.com

But I guess you get the point.

 

[Owen Lucas]

Will you at least back off from your claim that patients would have difficulty getting their prescriptions filled in San Francisco? Someone whose Walgreens closes in some rural town in Mississippi might have a problem, but not someone in San Francisco where there are about 100 pharmacies.

I'm glad there are a lot of options, like in many cities, I guess they will just have to transfer their Rx. I seriously hope things get better there!

 

[y_p_w]

I'm glad there are a lot of options, like in many cities, I guess they will just have to transfer their Rx. I seriously hope things get better there!

I totally get how it's easy to bag on San Francisco for its many problems. But not being able to get a prescription won't be one of them compared to some rural town that's losing its only pharmacy.

https://health.usnews.com/health-care/patient-advice/articles/2018-10-17/rural-pharmacies-are-closing-where-does-that-leave-patients

As for the Target store that was closed for repairs, etc, that is in a really nice town albeit in what is a tiny industrial part. But whoever might be shoplifting can pick different places. I was reading about the operations, and a lot of them are actually quite sophisticated. Some of the stuff is sold on street corners, but quite a bit is warehoused and then sent to other countries to be sold. There have also been reports about some local corner stores getting caught selling stolen items from these shoplifting rings.

 

[Gimpy1]

Any time the overhead sprinklers come on it's a nightmare to clean up.

We have a high rise apartment building behind us and someone on the top floor took a mattress out into the stairwell and leaned it up against the wall, problem was it was also right next to an electric heater. Sprinklers came an ruined the hole interior with water. It took them months to get it cleaned up.

Oh yea it is, but its covered by insurance.

 

[Owen Lucas]

I totally get how it's easy to bag on San Francisco for its many problems. But not being able to get a prescription won't be one of them compared to some rural town that's losing its only pharmacy.

https://health.usnews.com/health-care/patient-advice/articles/2018-10-17/rural-pharmacies-are-closing-where-does-that-leave-patients

As for the Target store that was closed for repairs, etc, that is in a really nice town albeit in what is a tiny industrial part. But whoever might be shoplifting can pick different places. I was reading about the operations, and a lot of them are actually quite sophisticated. Some of the stuff is sold on street corners, but quite a bit is warehoused and then sent to other countries to be sold. There have also been reports about some local corner stores getting caught selling stolen items from these shoplifting rings.

Let's hope it's a temporary trend, the law has to catch up though. There is definitely a correlation here.

 

[AZjeff]

We had a fire where I worked in manufacturing. If there was any smoke in the store every last thing in the store will have to be thoroughly cleaned and many items will be un-sellable.

 

[Gimpy1]

Any savings just isn't worth the shopping experience at Walmart. Some of the rural ones that aren't as busy might not be bad, but anywhere near an urban center is a complete nightmare.

Meh it depends on A) what time of the day you go B)how close it is to payday C)What day of the week it is. I WFH and operate on eastern time eventhough im in Texas I go on tuesday around 4 pm its like a ghost town. Easy peasy. The walmarts here are nothing compared to walmart in Mexico City now that was aboslute chaos mixed with black friday.

 

[nthach]

Walmart, the everyday prices are lower than "SALE" prices at other stores

You can get an oil filter for about $3 which is probably made by Champion Labs or at least used to be. They are no longer black, the oil filter aisle is sometimes really well picked over for a certain size, one or two stolen via box swapping magic, but still rated for 10,000 miles... I get that some dont like Walmart, but, it's a very awesome place for when you need to go to a store.

I remember when Target sold oil filters(Fram and ACDelco mostly) and had a garden center. No more.

I totally get how it's easy to bag on San Francisco for its many problems. But not being able to get a prescription won't be one of them compared to some rural town that's losing its only pharmacy.

https://health.usnews.com/health-care/patient-advice/articles/2018-10-17/rural-pharmacies-are-closing-where-does-that-leave-patients

As for the Target store that was closed for repairs, etc, that is in a really nice town albeit in what is a tiny industrial part. But whoever might be shoplifting can pick different places. I was reading about the operations, and a lot of them are actually quite sophisticated. Some of the stuff is sold on street corners, but quite a bit is warehoused and then sent to other countries to be sold. There have also been reports about some local corner stores getting caught selling stolen items from these shoplifting rings.

There’s a small corner store in a nice part of Berkeley who I hear was reselling food from the school district pandemic boxes. Not much different from seeing people in Chinatown hawk produce and food from government assistance programs.

 

[y_p_w]

I remember when Target sold oil filters(Fram and ACDelco mostly) and had a garden center. No more.

There’s a small corner store in a nice part of Berkeley who I hear was reselling food from the school district pandemic boxes. Not much different from seeing people in Chinatown hawk produce and food from government assistance programs.

The one in Albany had a garden center. Then it closed. Then it reopened. Then it closed. Found an old photo:

But this was one of the best industrial designs I've seen for any Target store. The garden center stayed empty for a while between when it was closed, but then they took it completely out.

I got that a few times since I have a child in school. But I'd get one box. The rules were supposed to be one box per child and only if there was a child in the school district.

And some of the stuff was really, really nice, like Marin Sun ground beef or Mary's Organic Chicken. But I think a lot of it was sold cheap or even donated. Not sure if there would have been anything illegal about reselling it. I did see some asking for 8-12 claiming that they had a lot of children or helping a friend. I also saw some extremely expensive cars in line, although none of it was means tested. I also saw a lot of older people who looked a bit too old to have kids in school, but maybe grandparents or older parents (heck - I'm older than most of my kid's parents). When I said something to one of the volunteers that it seemed that there were people who didn't have kids, I was told that they don't ask any questions and if people need to eat, they'll come there knowing there's no checking.

And yeah I've seen the lines for food assistance. Not all government though - I think I've seen lines in front of the Salvation Army.

 

[tmorris1]

Let's hope it's a temporary trend, the law has to catch up though. There is definitely a correlation here.

The law doesn't need to catch up? It is already illegal! They just need to enforce it and prosecute and these woke DAs need to do their job or be removed.

 

[tmorris1]

We had a fire where I worked in manufacturing. If there was any smoke in the store every last thing in the store will have to be thoroughly cleaned and many items will be un-sellable.

The local Wal-Mart here had a freezer compressor get hot and fill the store with smoke. No sprinklers went off, but it took them about a month to reopen. All the food was thrown out and all the clothes and most other items were removed by contractors (probably to be resold). They had to wipe down all the girders and roof. The store was essentially re-stocked like a new opening.

 

[Owen Lucas]

The law doesn't need to catch up? It is already illegal! They just need to enforce it and prosecute and these woke DAs need to do their job or be removed.

These DA's were voted in and their some of their campaigns supported by foreign entities which are bent on subverting democracy and peace in the US. Not to sound like a conspiracy theorist but this is part of a greater plan.

How George Soros funded progressive ‘legal arsonist’ DAs behind US crime surge

For the last several years, billionaire philanthropist George Soros has been quietly financing a revolution in criminal justice reform, doling out tens of millions of dollars to progressive candida…

nypost.com

Regardless, the question is, do the people that vote this insanity in deserve peace or do they need to be red-pilled into submission by their own laws? Let them stand as an example, a social experiment, for other cities to use as proof why not to implement these laws. Once you put these policies in, it's hard to walk back for the politically correct or brainwashed to vote them out. It will be this way unfortunately unless you add more law enforcement, which is exactly what they were rallying against.

 

[tmorris1]

These DA's were voted in and their some of their campaigns supported by foreign entities which are bent on subverting democracy and peace in the US. Not to sound like a conspiracy theorist but this is part of a greater plan.

How George Soros funded progressive ‘legal arsonist’ DAs behind US crime surge

For the last several years, billionaire philanthropist George Soros has been quietly financing a revolution in criminal justice reform, doling out tens of millions of dollars to progressive candida…

nypost.com

Regardless, the question is, do the people that vote this insanity in deserve peace or do they need to be red-pilled into submission by their own laws? Let them stand as an example, a social experiment, for other cities to use as proof why not to implement these laws. Once you put these policies in, it's hard to walk back for the politically correct or brainwashed to vote them out. It will be this way unfortunately unless you add more law enforcement, which is exactly what they were rallying against.

I think most people don't know what they are voting for. Especially in the last election. I will leave it at that,

 

[Dave Hess]

LA train tracks blanketed in empty boxes as thieves target cargo containers​

LA train tracks blanketed in empty boxes as thieves target cargo containers

Train tracks used for freight-transport in Los Angeles resembled a garbage dump Thursday as thieves have been raiding cargo containers and leaving shipping packaging in their wake.

nypost.com

.

 

[y_p_w]

LA train tracks blanketed in empty boxes as thieves target cargo containers​

LA train tracks blanketed in empty boxes as thieves target cargo containers

Train tracks used for freight-transport in Los Angeles resembled a garbage dump Thursday as thieves have been raiding cargo containers and leaving shipping packaging in their wake.

nypost.com

.

I still don't get this fixation with California. Organized retail and wholesale theft is not a problem unique to California.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/article257303457.html

State and federal authorities announced Thursday that they arrested and charged more than two dozen people for taking part in a multistate shoplifting ring that made off with more than $10 million in stolen goods over the past few years, most of which was over-the-counter medications.​

​

National multi-million dollar retail theft ring operated in SWFL

Two suspects have been arrested, two are at large and a fifth discovered dead of natural causes in an investigation of a multi-state retail theft ring. The Polk County Sheriff’s Office, working with Florida Attorney General Ashley Moody and the Georgia Bureau of Investigation developed five...

www.winknews.com

An organized group of suspects was defrauding Walmart by conducting fraudulent refunds and selling stolen merchandise for profit. The investigation revealed the suspects operated in at least 13 different states through the U.S. in a seven-month span. Within Florida, it was determined the suspects affected 18 judicial circuits and 39 different counties, including Charlotte, Collier and Lee.​

 

[alarmguy]

Can’t think of one item in Target that interests me enough to go inside.
Glorified 5&10cent store of years past.
Then the political aspect which we won’t discuss here but they threw themselves into that with the gender thing.

Walmart rock’s compared to all others for what it is, discount department/grocery store and one many people I. This forum seem to like as they are ALWAYS revered to buying oil and filters

 

[mk378]

Who would leave a stopped train unguarded? Trains have been robbed ever since there were trains. They're high value targets.

 

[Owen Lucas]

Who would leave a stopped train unguarded?

The rail lines have their own police, which is very understaffed, and this is technically private property the local police aren't supposed to patrol.

I'm sure if they witnessed the thefts happening then they would do something but it's not their problem. I think better locks on the containers that are resistant to portable grinders would work, like those puck locks if compatible. Then again I have a feeling the rail lines are cheap and don't care.