The big wheels are not listening? This can be a headache for the person charged with doing the transaction. It might work for persons who live in the same area where the products can be puchased in case lots and shipped to one location. A case of 12 qts oil runs 25-30 each. Thats around $10 to get to me, I just looked at the lasted case Shipping and it was $9.65 for 26 lbs to come 200 miles by UPS.
A new topic: a proposal, for Terry, Bob, Mole, et al
- Thread starter QuadDriver
- Start date
- Status
QD, et al,
I thought about this a lot. First of all, I think it is a great idea. I think we SHOULD have a concrete affirmation (physical teardown) of the partially abstract (the art and science of doing UOAs with accompanying analysis). Now we can argue this thing to death, e.g is a sample of one conclusive in terms of: the laws of probability; operational conditions; one make of vehicle accurately representing what we might see with all vehicles; etc etc. That being the case, I still think it will take us one valuable step further in our experience and observation than we are now. That being said, I'd like to propose part B to this test. Terry Dyson and maybe others have submitted (in so many words--unless I have misinterpreted) that there are engine/engine oil combinations "made in heaven" and that, in fact, engineers, when allowed to do so, design engines with certain oil in mind. I say, if we do the S10, let's use the OEM's own stuff, Goodwrench oil and AC Delco filters and see if that makes a noticeable difference (hope we have S10 UOAs on other oil/filter combinations). That way we can see (1) if there is the correlation BTW what Terry does and what QD finds; and (2) see if the OEM does know best. Again I know with the minds we have participating in this board that you can find flaws with my proposal, but I figure ya gotta start somewhere (unless we are all satisfied to take this board no farther in the direction of empiricsm than we are now and, while I have great respect for you all, we do a lot of theory and opinion).
I thought about this a lot. First of all, I think it is a great idea. I think we SHOULD have a concrete affirmation (physical teardown) of the partially abstract (the art and science of doing UOAs with accompanying analysis). Now we can argue this thing to death, e.g is a sample of one conclusive in terms of: the laws of probability; operational conditions; one make of vehicle accurately representing what we might see with all vehicles; etc etc. That being the case, I still think it will take us one valuable step further in our experience and observation than we are now. That being said, I'd like to propose part B to this test. Terry Dyson and maybe others have submitted (in so many words--unless I have misinterpreted) that there are engine/engine oil combinations "made in heaven" and that, in fact, engineers, when allowed to do so, design engines with certain oil in mind. I say, if we do the S10, let's use the OEM's own stuff, Goodwrench oil and AC Delco filters and see if that makes a noticeable difference (hope we have S10 UOAs on other oil/filter combinations). That way we can see (1) if there is the correlation BTW what Terry does and what QD finds; and (2) see if the OEM does know best. Again I know with the minds we have participating in this board that you can find flaws with my proposal, but I figure ya gotta start somewhere (unless we are all satisfied to take this board no farther in the direction of empiricsm than we are now and, while I have great respect for you all, we do a lot of theory and opinion).
ok, if we have this interest....lets at least set the baseline - the motor - do we assume a fine nafta enabled mexican corp has assembled it correctly, or do I go inside for a looksee....I gotta get the parts ordered if so.
I said it before and Ill say it again, everyone of my posts has been in response to another. IF I could get you guys (royal you) to stay on topic and stop bouncing around, then a topic can be driven home to conclusion. The last thread was closed what? 3? 4? times? hopefully those who toss out the invectives will keep mum this time and this can reach conclusion.
You will have to define what you mean by '3rd party verified'....Im doubtful you are gonna find anyone to dump in the oil for me if that is what you are saying....
Terry I apologize for being dense, but I do not understand this sentence.
could you explain a little better for me here this 'process'? I take it if I send in oil to you, you send it to SRI, then tell me what the slip reads for $35, or If I send you a slip you tell me what it means for $10? a link will do if you dont have time.
[ July 14, 2003, 04:09 AM: Message edited by: QuadDriver ]
QD, please take this as only constructive criticism but do you have any idea on how you are come off or are being perceived when interacting with others? You certainly appear to be intelligent but I don't understand how you make it through the day without getting mugged if you communicate with people you work with like you do here and/or have to work with other people in accomplishing a common objective. Obviously, no one is perfect and we all have our flaws but I bet if you spent some time in the 'effective communications with others' area, instead of making $250/hr you'd be making $500/hr or more. Just a friendly thought...
Perhaps '3MP' isn't in the phone book but I do sign every single webpage I put online, and my name is on the cover of all my books.
I never got to meet your dad; I didn't start writing until after his death. I keep to fuel injected cars as much as I can. Carburetors annoy me.
Well anyway, I'm curious to see what comes of this test, though I won't be of much use myself -- my own test keeps me pretty occupied.
Cheers, 3MP
Well take this as a constructive reply... ;-)quote:
Originally posted by nick778:
QD, please take this as only constructive criticism but do you have any idea on how you are come off or are being perceived when interacting with others? You certainly appear to be intelligent but I don't understand how you make it through the day without getting mugged if you communicate with people you work with like you do here and/or have to work with other people in accomplishing a common objective. Obviously, no one is perfect and we all have our flaws but I bet if you spent some time in the 'effective communications with others' area, instead of making $250/hr you'd be making $500/hr or more. Just a friendly thought...
Im not online to win contests or blow sunshine up butts. If that sounds 'mean' it is only because I have been in the online world too long and realize that behind the anonymity of the web, everyone is a rocket scientist and everyone owns a viper.
that said....if you peruse the posts I contribute to, either they are an answer to a help question, or a challenge to what I call a 'bold assertion'
If you tell me 'Product X gets your whites whiter and freshens your breath more than the leading brand' (which *a LOT* of the posts read, I could substitute "crest" for the actual oil named and make it sound just like the crap on tv) then you will get from me: "How much whiter are the whites?, how much fresher is the breath?, who exactly is this leading brand? and please show your data"
The poster of such bold assertions should at the minimum EXPECT this response and have answers at hand. From the offline email I have been getting, suffice to say, no one asks these questions and the writers are glad for it. Instead of answering the questions, Ill get stuff like 'most people in europe drive porsche carrerras' (ok Im being a little facetious) and I am guilty of taking the time out to refute THAT bold assertion. From the fact that most of my questions are unanswered, I goto my next point:
From my observations, no one here works for the automotive industry such that they design, test, build and or over see production of new motors for sale (worded to exclude indies like myself that do rebuild motors, but essentially are workin on someone elses product.) No one here is also an employee of an oil company such that they design, lab test, formulate etc motor oils for cars and the environments they operate in. Lessons learned on jet engines have little relevance on automobile engines - or so the actual makers of said oils have repeatedly tried to hammer into our heads. In short, we are all collectively as a group, interlopers at best in the industry. Experimenters. Cowboys. It would be nice to see a chief design engineer for GMs LT1 or LS1 append here with 'whys' on what he did what he did and recommends what he recommends, along with a chief lube engineer for Mobils M1 synthetic telling us why he did what he did and what he found in the lab. We dont have that here. We have second guessing as to why what decisions were made. If everyone would understand that, and the imposed limitations of what that leaves us with, there would be less 'war'. For example, if someone asks what they know about taurus tranny failures, I can state they fail due to lack of lube to the planetary gearset, and can point to numerous web pages, both ATRA and 'civilian' and even point to NHTSA data listing reported failures per car sold. That lends credence and a strong correlation to the truth. IF in terms of wear due to differnt oils, if the answer can be no more precise than 'wear has occured when you started it'......well its hard to differentiate whose teeth are whiter no? All I want is "quantifiable" answers. Ive used that word enuf to indicate its a priority. Ive started this thread to try to make it a reality.
On the other hand, when bold assertions are just patently wrong (for example, in a thread, it WAS stated with emphasis that syn oils do not shear - which is false) then I will point that out. premesi based on incorrect data or assumptions can only lead to error downstream. If its arrogant or mean to point them out, then so be it. Questions were asked, the only correct answers are the correct ones - if you understand my wording.
All that said, oil related engine failures (without mitigating circumstances) are so rare today that I will with reasonable confidence say that you have a greater change of being killed in a head on collision with a drunk driver in your car, rather than the motor dying because walmart oil was used with a fram oil filter. I suspect all we are doing is proving the difference between a trillionth of a micron vs a billionth of a micron....but so be it. Of course this would take major wind out of the sales and beliefs of those who push or bet the farm on syn oil....but hey, someone bought chia pets also no ;-)
Since the record shows that I am a varied user of both syn and dino oils..all it will likely do for me is modify my purchasing patterns.
quote:
Originally posted by 3 Mad Ponchos:
I keep to fuel injected cars as much as I can. Carburetors annoy me.
No takers eh?
I guess I don't understand what you want from us. You're paying for the whole thing and doing all the work, so what input do you need from us? Do you want us to pick out the supplies you use? If so, tell me what you want selected and I'll pick 'em out, if that's the only thing standing in the way.
Cheers, 3MP
Cheers, 3MP
QuadDriver
It is possible that someone could be an " employee of an oil company such that they design, lab test, formulate etc motor oils for cars and the environments they operate in" and just hiddening his real id.
Why? for at least a dosen of reasons.
1. To avoid a bombardment of all sort of "annoying" questions
2. Lack of free time
3. Qeustionable scientific backround of the audience
4. To avoid the exposure of confidential informaton
5. He should be responsible for everything he says and he should provide solid data to back it up.
6. He should charge as 2000$ for an hour..
and etc
It is possible that someone could be an " employee of an oil company such that they design, lab test, formulate etc motor oils for cars and the environments they operate in" and just hiddening his real id.
Why? for at least a dosen of reasons.
1. To avoid a bombardment of all sort of "annoying" questions
2. Lack of free time
3. Qeustionable scientific backround of the audience
4. To avoid the exposure of confidential informaton
5. He should be responsible for everything he says and he should provide solid data to back it up.
6. He should charge as 2000$ for an hour..
and etc
MolaKule
Staff member
QD,
"could you explain a little better for me here this 'process'? I take it if I send in oil to you, you send it to SRI, then tell me what the slip reads for $35, or If I send you a slip you tell me what it means for $10? a link will do if you dont have time."
I believe this is what Terry is saying:
Terry may send the oil to any number of labs. The Blackstone/Dyson deal is very good (check out the site supporters page). In other words, it costs at least $25 for a lab analysis. If you want to have your own done, you send him the results of the analysis and he interprets it for you at a cost of only $10. He has an experience database (we in AI would call it a "case-based" reasoning system CBRS) that is amazing!
"could you explain a little better for me here this 'process'? I take it if I send in oil to you, you send it to SRI, then tell me what the slip reads for $35, or If I send you a slip you tell me what it means for $10? a link will do if you dont have time."
I believe this is what Terry is saying:
Terry may send the oil to any number of labs. The Blackstone/Dyson deal is very good (check out the site supporters page). In other words, it costs at least $25 for a lab analysis. If you want to have your own done, you send him the results of the analysis and he interprets it for you at a cost of only $10. He has an experience database (we in AI would call it a "case-based" reasoning system CBRS) that is amazing!
MolaKule
Staff member
" Im not online to win contests or blow sunshine up butts. If that sounds 'mean' it is only because I have been in the online world too long and realize that behind the anonymity of the web, everyone is a rocket scientist and everyone owns a viper."
And if you do not tone down your pert and arrogant responses everyone will know you're not a rocket scientist. We do however appreciate sincere and helpful Mechanical Tips.
"that said....if you peruse the posts I contribute to, either they are an answer to a help question, or a challenge to what I call a 'bold assertion.'"
I think you read too much into some of the responses and IMHO, you think people are out to get you. People make assertions, give opinions, and even report facts. As long as people are civil, they have the right to do so.
"If you tell me 'Product X gets your whites whiter and freshens your breath more than the leading brand' (which *a LOT* of the posts read, I could substitute "crest" for the actual oil named and make it sound just like the crap on tv) then you will get from
me: "How much whiter are the whites?, how much fresher is the breath?, who exactly is this leading brand? and please show your data"
Fair enough, but what is good for the goose is good enough for the gander. And don't give us anymore of "I get personal emails that state such and such." Bullhockey.
"The poster of such bold assertions should at the minimum EXPECT this response and have answers at hand. From the offline email I have been getting, suffice to say, no one asks these questions and the writers are glad for it. Instead of answering the
questions, Ill get stuff like 'most people in europe drive porsche carrerras' (ok Im being a little facetious) and I am guilty of taking the time out to refute THAT bold assertion. "
So what? People are making comments and giving opinions about what they have read and heard. They have the right to do so as long as their civil and courtious.!
"From the fact that most of my questions are unanswered, I goto my next
point: From my observations, no one here works for the automotive industry such that they design, test, build and or over see production of new motors for sale (worded to exclude indies like myself that do rebuild motors, but essentially are workin on someone elses product.) No one here is also an employee of an oil company such that they design, lab test, formulate etc motor oils for cars and the environments they operate in. Lessons learned on jet engines have little relevance on automobile engines - or so the actual makers of said oils have repeatedly tried to hammer into our heads. In short, we are all collectively as a group, interlopers at best in the industry. Experimenters. Cowboys. It would be nice to see a chief design engineer for GMs LT1 or LS1 append here with 'whys' on what he did what he did and recommends what he recommends, along with a chief lube engineer for Mobils M1 synthetic telling us why he did what he did and what he found in the lab. We dont have that here. We have second guessing as to why what decisions were made. If everyone would understand that, and the imposed limitations of what that leaves us with, there would be less 'war'. For example, if someone asks what they know about taurus tranny failures, I can state they fail due to lack of lube to the planetary gearset, and can point to numerous web pages, both ATRA and 'civilian' and even point to NHTSA data listing reported failures per car sold. That lends credence and a strong correlation to the truth. IF in terms of
wear due to differnt oils, if the answer can be no more precise than 'wear has occured when you started it'......well its hard to differentiate whose teeth are whiter no? All I want is "quantifiable" answers. Ive used that word enuf to indicate its a priority. Ive started this thread to try to make it a reality."
So? Is your view such that this board exists for your personal leisure? Where do think you would find a board with non-independant engineers and scientists? In aerospace, we don't give away any secrets. We can only speak in generalities. What do think a GM engineer would say to a queery on this board? Absolutely nothing. I think this board is as close as you're going to get, with at least 4 chemists, analysts, and dozens of mechanics, technicians, and just plain old Saturday afternoon mechanics.
"If its arrogant or mean to point them out, then so be it. Questions were asked, the only correct answers arethe correct ones - if you understand my wording."
Giving an answer by itself is not arrogant or mean, but the way it IS present and stated can be construed as arrogant and mean. And most of your responses, at least in the beginning, have been both arrogant, in some case downright silly, off topic spurs introduced that had no bearing to the topic, and yes, downright mean. Look dude, you had better back off and learn some dipolamcy!
"All that said, oil related engine failures (without mitigating circumstances) are so rare today that I will with reasonable confidence say that you have a greater change of being killed in a head on collision with a drunk driver in your car, rather than the motor
dying because walmart oil was used with a fram oil filter. I suspect all we are doing is proving the difference between a trillionth of a micron vs a billionth of a micron....but so be it. Of course this would take major wind out of the sales and beliefs of those
who push or bet the farm on syn oil....but hey, someone bought chia pets also no ;-)."
Your bold assertion or opinion without technical data.
And if you do not tone down your pert and arrogant responses everyone will know you're not a rocket scientist. We do however appreciate sincere and helpful Mechanical Tips.
"that said....if you peruse the posts I contribute to, either they are an answer to a help question, or a challenge to what I call a 'bold assertion.'"
I think you read too much into some of the responses and IMHO, you think people are out to get you. People make assertions, give opinions, and even report facts. As long as people are civil, they have the right to do so.
"If you tell me 'Product X gets your whites whiter and freshens your breath more than the leading brand' (which *a LOT* of the posts read, I could substitute "crest" for the actual oil named and make it sound just like the crap on tv) then you will get from
me: "How much whiter are the whites?, how much fresher is the breath?, who exactly is this leading brand? and please show your data"
Fair enough, but what is good for the goose is good enough for the gander. And don't give us anymore of "I get personal emails that state such and such." Bullhockey.
"The poster of such bold assertions should at the minimum EXPECT this response and have answers at hand. From the offline email I have been getting, suffice to say, no one asks these questions and the writers are glad for it. Instead of answering the
questions, Ill get stuff like 'most people in europe drive porsche carrerras' (ok Im being a little facetious) and I am guilty of taking the time out to refute THAT bold assertion. "
So what? People are making comments and giving opinions about what they have read and heard. They have the right to do so as long as their civil and courtious.!
"From the fact that most of my questions are unanswered, I goto my next
point: From my observations, no one here works for the automotive industry such that they design, test, build and or over see production of new motors for sale (worded to exclude indies like myself that do rebuild motors, but essentially are workin on someone elses product.) No one here is also an employee of an oil company such that they design, lab test, formulate etc motor oils for cars and the environments they operate in. Lessons learned on jet engines have little relevance on automobile engines - or so the actual makers of said oils have repeatedly tried to hammer into our heads. In short, we are all collectively as a group, interlopers at best in the industry. Experimenters. Cowboys. It would be nice to see a chief design engineer for GMs LT1 or LS1 append here with 'whys' on what he did what he did and recommends what he recommends, along with a chief lube engineer for Mobils M1 synthetic telling us why he did what he did and what he found in the lab. We dont have that here. We have second guessing as to why what decisions were made. If everyone would understand that, and the imposed limitations of what that leaves us with, there would be less 'war'. For example, if someone asks what they know about taurus tranny failures, I can state they fail due to lack of lube to the planetary gearset, and can point to numerous web pages, both ATRA and 'civilian' and even point to NHTSA data listing reported failures per car sold. That lends credence and a strong correlation to the truth. IF in terms of
wear due to differnt oils, if the answer can be no more precise than 'wear has occured when you started it'......well its hard to differentiate whose teeth are whiter no? All I want is "quantifiable" answers. Ive used that word enuf to indicate its a priority. Ive started this thread to try to make it a reality."
So? Is your view such that this board exists for your personal leisure? Where do think you would find a board with non-independant engineers and scientists? In aerospace, we don't give away any secrets. We can only speak in generalities. What do think a GM engineer would say to a queery on this board? Absolutely nothing. I think this board is as close as you're going to get, with at least 4 chemists, analysts, and dozens of mechanics, technicians, and just plain old Saturday afternoon mechanics.
"If its arrogant or mean to point them out, then so be it. Questions were asked, the only correct answers arethe correct ones - if you understand my wording."
Giving an answer by itself is not arrogant or mean, but the way it IS present and stated can be construed as arrogant and mean. And most of your responses, at least in the beginning, have been both arrogant, in some case downright silly, off topic spurs introduced that had no bearing to the topic, and yes, downright mean. Look dude, you had better back off and learn some dipolamcy!
"All that said, oil related engine failures (without mitigating circumstances) are so rare today that I will with reasonable confidence say that you have a greater change of being killed in a head on collision with a drunk driver in your car, rather than the motor
dying because walmart oil was used with a fram oil filter. I suspect all we are doing is proving the difference between a trillionth of a micron vs a billionth of a micron....but so be it. Of course this would take major wind out of the sales and beliefs of those
who push or bet the farm on syn oil....but hey, someone bought chia pets also no ;-)."
Your bold assertion or opinion without technical data.
Perhaps handsdown, the simplest, most concise definition of the WWW I have ever heard. There is hope for ya yet! ;-)
the number of traffic fatalities is well tracked and avail on the web, ditto the number of alcohol related crash/deaths. FARS data will give the number of head on circumstances. So lets deduce, we can rather easily, determine the number of deaths due to drunks, where the cars hit head on. Without doing the math I predict it will number in the 10000's (I think overall drunks kill what 22K a year?) I can find no data about engine oil related failures. This either tells me tis rare or no one cares. However, I can find data to predict, 'taurus transmission failure' so it seems there are people who do track catastrophic failures. Im not saying the data does not exist, or its huge, but Im pretty confident everyone would agree with the premise of my statement. Oil failures just dont occur with any regularity.
With that said, I ask, do you fear catastophic oil failure or premature wear? Is that a general 'mood' here? That its imminent and dino oil is playing with fire? If so this nation has played with fire for about 100 years and has junkyards full of perfectly servicable motors in rusted out or crashed bodies....
In another thread 'Mark from NY' stated that worn out smoker engines, differ in critical clearances by 10000ths of inches....and from personal experience - I agree for the most part.
I have wondered about this, you seem to know what you are doing, what is your background (ie are you a chemist)? what is the name of your business? do you have a web site?
Well, no you can't, unless you're prepared to assume that drunks in head-on collisions are directly proportional to the general population in head-on collisions.
This is exactly the sort of thing that makes it so difficult to follow your threads.
Cheers, 3MP
CMH, I try. checkout my site supporter page at
www.bobistheoilguy.com/terry.html
Have analyzed automotive and trucking engine oils for nearly 24 years. Starting in the military, owning a repair business, and finally settling on oil analysis interpretation and tribological consult by demand for race engine builders,formulators, and oil companies both US and foreign.
My testing consult is proprietary in nature as I work for competing entities and prefer to continue working !
I started selling trended oil analysis packages for the average auto owner 3 or so years ago . Wanted to provide the institutional knowledge I have been fortunate enough to develop over the years to look at analysis for the enthusiast. At a price he or she could afford.
Met Bob Winters and helped develop this board
from the unbiased analysis point of view with a angle on sharing data and giving the straight skinny to those who are bombarded by marketing bull pucky. I also wanted a place to share analysis data for the benefit of all participants (less the oil companies and professional formulators).
Owned and raced cars professionally in the
former ProSportsCar racing series ( IMSA ). Have a background from the teen years in Sprints and stock cars in Southern Indiana. My lovely wife of 24 years even drove stocks in NC at Fayettville ( dirt)!
BS in Aeronautics from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University.
Have training from both US Navy and US Army in Petroleum and lubricants, and hazardous materials,
aircraft maintenance.
www.bobistheoilguy.com/terry.html
Have analyzed automotive and trucking engine oils for nearly 24 years. Starting in the military, owning a repair business, and finally settling on oil analysis interpretation and tribological consult by demand for race engine builders,formulators, and oil companies both US and foreign.
My testing consult is proprietary in nature as I work for competing entities and prefer to continue working !
I started selling trended oil analysis packages for the average auto owner 3 or so years ago . Wanted to provide the institutional knowledge I have been fortunate enough to develop over the years to look at analysis for the enthusiast. At a price he or she could afford.
Met Bob Winters and helped develop this board
from the unbiased analysis point of view with a angle on sharing data and giving the straight skinny to those who are bombarded by marketing bull pucky. I also wanted a place to share analysis data for the benefit of all participants (less the oil companies and professional formulators).
Owned and raced cars professionally in the
former ProSportsCar racing series ( IMSA ). Have a background from the teen years in Sprints and stock cars in Southern Indiana. My lovely wife of 24 years even drove stocks in NC at Fayettville ( dirt)!
BS in Aeronautics from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University.
Have training from both US Navy and US Army in Petroleum and lubricants, and hazardous materials,
aircraft maintenance.
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