Perusing other threads, I guess this one was closed again today? I didnt see anything evil so I guess the offending posts were deleted, anyways, Terry wrote somethere along the lines 'If quad is honest then he will be serious about education/learning' etc. Dont remember the exact quote. So to extend the olive branch here is my idea. Long post, so if you dont like em, bail now, if you dont like my idea, say so and Ill withdraw the offer....but here goes.
I propose a long term test. I will pay for everything. You guys get to set up the rules and run the test.
The vehicle: 1991 chevy S blazer with a ton of miles, is going to receive a new motor *soon*. A zero mile reman*(1)
I will pay for the parts. I will pay for the oil, oil filters and air filters and you all by consensus get to tell me what to use. I will buy test kits from terry and let him do UOAs. At the end of a pre-determined goal, we will tear it down and quantify with no ambiguity, what we think we saw during its life. If the test ends early due to catastrophic failure, then I will tear it down and we will find out why. If the test ends early due to wreck (god forbid) I will tear it down and take measurements then, OR donate the engine and the labor to install it elsewhere in someone elses vehicle. If I get tired of the vehicle (we have talked of replacing 2 of the vehicles with a Tahoe-ish vehicle in about 2 years) I will *GIVE* it free of charge to someone on this board to keep driving for the test(but they register it and insure it)
If anyone wants to donate a maint cycles air, oil or oil filter, I will let them, ditto for time.
The S10 is my daily driver in the summer, wifes daily in the winter (it has 4wabs and a locker rear as well as 4x4) It will tow*(2) in the summer.
My only rules: the oil filter must be a direct replacement for the PF52. there will be a remote cooler on it when the new engine goes in, I already have the adaptor. The air filter must be a direct replacement for whatever stock filter I use (ac346?) The oil must be at least the specified service level for 1991 vehicles (meaning no SA or SB) and the proper grade (no 0W10 or 60wt for example) And the maximum service interval will be used as per the owners manual, unless its an interval when I really tow a lot. the initial oil fill will be pennzoil dino in 10/30 for 1000 miles with a PF52 - a nice break-in oil experience has shown me. In short, I want to simulate what Joe user who obeys the manual might do.
*1= the engine is from advanced auto. It is a reman from 'Recon' - a mexican company that supplies engines for most auto parts stores in the USA (they might not be the EXCLUSIVE supplier for some chains, but most chains you can name carry their motors.) It is a $1300 unit I got on ebay for $700 from someone doing a 91 K1500, but abandoned the project, it has been in plastic since last september. It is a stock 4.3L v6, 160hp, 250ft T, listed as .030 over, .010/.010 under*(3). It will have the stock roller cam removed and an edelbrock performer roller cam, edelbrock performer manifold added to get to appx 200hp and 270ish ft. The radiator will be brand new and it will have green coolant in 50/50-60/40 mix with a 180 thermo. I will not be using the melling stock oil pump, I will be using a hi-vol melling (or equiv) with the stock spring....same 5qt sump (+/- to account for the cooler)
*2 = I tow a 5000lb boat appx 2 miles from parking to the ramp each time I go out. Occasionally I bring the boat home <5miles to clean or refuel. It will have no Mt towing, no hi speed towing, no OD towing. the tranny is a rebuilt 700R4 and a 3.42 axle
*3= .030 over means the bore was increased from 4.001 to 4.030, .010/.010 under means the rod and main journals have been turned down from the 2.1/2.45" stock numbers. GM has specced the proper limits for over bore/under turned motors for appx 35 years on the 'large journal' 350, of which the 4.3 is 3/4 of. We can either a) assume recon did the rebuild properly, or b) I am willing to purchase the parts to remove the heads, pull each journal, mic them, get the oil clearance and reinstall the heads making sure proper sealant is used to do the best to eliminate coolant leaks. I will even verify taper and ring gap. your call.
So how about it? This could be an everyone wins situation. Everyone will get to see the behaviour of the oils they select, ditto filters, ditto air filters. At the end, the teardown will grade the effort. This will be the closest approximation of mobils daily testing that any 'citizen' has ever undertaken.
Can I get everyone on board? Or shut up and be quiet?
A new topic: a proposal, for Terry, Bob, Mole, et al
- Thread starter QuadDriver
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Wouldnt the only way to do this right is to have several vehicles operating under the same conditions with some running dino and some running synthetic. You could monitor through UOA's each oil change and then after X amount of miles, do a tear down and see what the differences are?
[ July 12, 2003, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
quote:But alas, I have but only 1 s10.... after the S10, I will be doing my truck, but that is gonna run syn oil only with 2 huge FL1a filters (have not decided on the maker of the syn oil yet) but still - 99% of the people here compete against themselves to determine best oil/filter/interval for their life. just think of my offer as a free test bed to check your fav oil or proposed fav oil. And since it will be closely monitored, the end teardown should be consistent with whatever 'trends' are shown in the UOAs terry could do (if he agrees) In a perfect world I will have 20 S10s and run each strictly according whatever test is dreamed up for that S10, i.e. one with long drain on M1, one with long on amsoil, one with 7500 on walmart etc etc you get the point - it aint a perfect world and Hillary STILL got elected.
Originally posted by buster: Wouldnt the only way to do this right is to have several vehicles operating under the same conditions with some running dino and some running synthetic. You could monitor through UOA's each oil change and then after X amount of miles, do a tear down and see what the differences are?
man heck yeah. i love what your doing for this site, opening peoples eyes.
ill send you a couple oil filters or whatever you need. maybe i just send you money and you go down and buy some oil and filter, to save shipping costs. i dont know. but ill jump onboard this one. tell me what you need.
also, set up a paypal account so we all can paypal you.
i would like to see exactly how accurite oil analisis really is. because like you, i dont believe its very accurite at all.
This will be the closest approximation of mobils daily testing that any 'citizen' has ever undertaken.
Well, very noble but not sure how much it will approximate the ave Joe on the street with all the mods you will make to the engine. As noted above, two vehicles really needed but not practical.
How will this differ from the one already being done with the UOA evry 1000 miles?? Check out the UOA thread. Main diff will be the engine tear down and measurements at some point if that happens.
Work vs.Hobby:
As I originally explained and proposed I am more that happy to be hired for performing oil analysis. Hey I own a business folks. Oil analysis is work for me, not a hobby. Price to be determined by work involved.
NO warm and fussies :
I am concerned about entering a test that is controlled and paid for by a guy?, who I don't know, don't know your name, suspect your motives and methods and who has a theory that UOA is all the same. Not to mention very confrontational with anyone who disagrees with him. I don't do business with folks I can't Identify.
SWRI not equal to Wear Check:
I tried to point this out but it bears repeating, if you want analysis that can point out how many 1000 ths of a inch of bearing wore off we won't be able to use a $35 Blackstone kit to do it.
If you want trended analysis accuracy and my years of experience compared to a teardown at X point in miles/hours etc. No problem.
CONTROL and METHODOLOGY: Since QuadDriver does not give me warm fussies but seems to realize we aren't such a bad lot, I say rock on, with a third party to control the tests. BOB ?
Methodology needs more thought put into it and disclosures of exact regime and third party verification are a must.
QuadDriver has a vested interest in the outcome and since we don't even know his name will loose less than those of us that are open to reputation damaging deception that happens in tests like these if not closely controlled.
Conclusion : Decide what exactly we are looking for, put controls/methodology that we ALL agree to, be specific and lets ROLL !
Terry
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Well, I think it's a great idea what Quad has proposed. He is really going out on a limb to offer to fund this whole thing himself.
We have 3 mad ponchos doing a zillion oil analysis tests on his Camaro with synthetic and now Quad is willing to use only mineral oil for the life of his vehicle and do a complete teardown measurement of the main wearing components. This is some great stuff.
quote:I was under the impression that Goodwrench oil is now sourced from Mobil, and very similar to Mobil Drive Clean. I know that Goodwrench's synthetic is repackaged Mobil 1. Here are a few scenarios I have brainstormed, to go along with the above: 1. Long term test of new German-formula Castrol. 2. Intentional, controlled sludge formation and repair. Is this even possible without causing permanent engine damage? 3. Along those same lines, a "torture test" - use Valvoline or SuperTech 5w30 dino with Fram filters at the factory recommended 7500 mile interval, regardless of time or driving conditions. Almost everyone I know who believes the 3 month / 3000 mile myth ignores the 3 month part of it.
Originally posted by pscholte: ...Goodwrench oil and AC Delco filters and see if that makes a noticeable difference (hope we have S10 UOAs on other oil/filter combinations).
quote:Actually, I said Id use ANY oil, mineral or syn, as long as it meets the service level and weight in the manual, considering of course my climate. If I am instructed to run Goodwench oil one interval and motul the next, so be it. Terry: the only defn I have for a 'warm fussy' is a cranky 2yo on a hot summer day. And Im sure it would be illegal if I gave u any of those. But I dont understand the 'we dont know who he is', I thought I was universally famous (especially after writing for Allexperts.com for a number of years), well suffice to say, the term 'QuadDriver' is a registered trademark of 'Quaddriver enterprises' (I still say GM owes me big), and I own the domain to boot. (hey I needed a hook about 9 years ago when I signed up to AOL). As for my shop and capabilities thereof, you are more than welcome to visit and speak to clientele. I dont advertise - Im lucky to not have to - word of mouth works wonders when ur good. Im arrogant enuf to say Im Da*m Good. In this economy the luxury of turning away bizness is a blessing, I wish I didnt have to, but I dont have the space to hire more people and the woman who owns the land I want to build a big place wont cough it up yet. But I query: how come everyone else here is able to get a UOA for $10 and I cant?
Originally posted by FowVay: Well, I think it's a great idea what Quad has proposed. He is really going out on a limb to offer to fund this whole thing himself. We have 3 mad ponchos doing a zillion oil analysis tests on his Camaro with synthetic and now Quad is willing to use only mineral oil for the life of his vehicle and do a complete teardown measurement of the main wearing components. This is some great stuff.
quote:Sorry, but I dont have any Toyota V6's
Originally posted by segfault: 2. Intentional, controlled sludge formation and repair. Is this even possible without causing permanent engine damage?
![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon}
quote:Nope, I never heard of you. I used to write for a nationally distributed car magazine but you probably never heard of me either. Cheers, 3MP
I thought I was universally famous (especially after writing for Allexperts.com for a number of years)
MolaKule
Staff member
Q1: Just curious, besides being a technical journalist (which is my take from your post) what is Quadriver Enterprizes and what are you so supposedly so dang good at?
Q2: Please restate the goal of the test.
Comment: I would be willing to help with the testing methodology or regimes and do needed calculations if that is agreed, with third party verification of course. All this is stipulated upon a clear and reasonable goal.
Quad, I still don't know who you are nor do any on
this board, that are saying. I charge $35 each kit for basic non professional trend analysis, $10 for your own sourced kits interpretation.
By your own arrogant "enuf" definition you are darn good professionaly. Which puts you in a different clientele. That is normally $100 an hour for consult, we'll work something out in this unique case. Plus you are all over the place in your writing and comments which leaves the trust question at the top of the list for lack of warm FuZZies.
Yes,warm fuzzies. WE ALL don't live on the internet so sorry for lack of name recognition.
Let me know when we are ready to develop a
viable goal driven, 3rd party controlled and verifiable test regime.
The customer being QUADdriver enterprises.
IF an when we get on with this I will be visiting you and your shop, in PA ? Where ?
Terry
[ July 13, 2003, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]
MolaKule
Staff member
Just curious Ed, err Quaddriver, what makes you an expert on tribology and oil analysis? ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif)
BTW Ed,
Lubrizol is not the only additve supplier in the adds market. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
Location? Near Tylersburg, Pa.
[ July 13, 2003, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
BTW Ed,
Lubrizol is not the only additve supplier in the adds market.
Location? Near Tylersburg, Pa.
[ July 13, 2003, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]quote:Im betting there are no entries in the phone book for '3 mad ponchos', however, if you wrote for something dealing with pontiacs, then you or someone older knew my dad....b4 his death in 84 he had one of the better GTO collections on the east coast...
Originally posted by 3 Mad Ponchos:quote:Nope, I never heard of you. I used to write for a nationally distributed car magazine but you probably never heard of me either. Cheers, 3MP
I thought I was universally famous (especially after writing for Allexperts.com for a number of years)
quote:technical journalist? anyways, the goals are what you set them at. do we want a stable test bed to gather info on various oils? do we want to sum up 100K (or whatever mileage worth) of UOAs and make a prediction as to actual wear and grade it with a tear down like mobil did? do we want to heavily document a strictly adhered to maint cycle with 'supposedly' the finest materials out there and grade that effect on a motor? you all decide. I supply the engine, miles and products QE is just something I registered so I could tie everything together, who knows, mebbe some day Ill be rich and famous (Ill settle for just rich, fame sucks) what I am good at in reference to that post and the 'shop' mentioned, is the modificatin and repair of autos, boats, bikes etc. (the legal name of the biz is 'Graffius Auto Marine Motorcycle ATV' (enterprise license 81-543 446 to make it legal) or 'gamma' and can be contacted via '[email protected] domain' (which is kind of a waste, no one up here really shops by computer for services)
Originally posted by MolaKule: Q1: Just curious, besides being a technical journalist (which is my take from your post) what is Quadriver Enterprizes and what are you so supposedly so dang good at? Q2: Please restate the goal of the test. Comment: I would be willing to help with the testing methodology or regimes and do needed calculations if that is agreed, with third party verification of course. All this is stipulated upon a clear and reasonable goal.
quote:I never said I was. I do the same as you - I read up on it, call places like SRI, talk to engineers for mobil and texaco...little stuff like that, oh, and of course I make a bad habit of quoting web pages from same - a bad habit cause as shown here, what could they possibly know right? ;-), and truth be known, you are a chemist, but not for an oil concern right? Or did I read wrong?
Originally posted by MolaKule: Just curious Ed, err Quaddriver, what makes you an expert on tribology and oil analysis?
quote:kinda, a bit more to the east about 10 minutes.
and Location? Near Tylersburg, Pa.
MolaKule
Staff member
If you look at the profile, I'm a Physicist with specialties in Physical Chemistry and Nuclear Enginering, working as a Systems Engineer for an aerospace firm.
I do specialty formulations, formulation consultation, and lubrication analysis, and am a member of the AIAA and the S.T.L.E, and like many people on the board, still looking toward that "Holy Grail" of lubrication. I have also done EW work for various entities.
I do not work for any of the blenders, oil companies, or additive suppliers. As for the latter, I do use their products. I prefer to be independant of any oil company, supplier, or manufacturer.
As for other duties, I design and build hydraulics for custom Wood Splitters and even sell a few now and then. I am foremost a greasemonkey who likes to rebuild and improve machines, especially engines.
Addendum: For the record, I do use Schaeffer's products, Redline Oils, Mobil lubes, Chevron's oils, Conoco's oils and Lubes, and even some Pennzoil stuff on occasion.
[ July 13, 2003, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
What exactly are we trying to prove or disprove with this test?
I dunno but if he's paying it can't do any harm eh?
Cheers, 3MP
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