99 jeep 4.0 129k 5k PP 5w-20 Dyson

[Gary Allan]

This is the second run for PP 5w-20 in my wife's 4.0 Jeep Wrangler. Wear is down in most numbers by a decent clip. Fuel adds were used near the beginning of the OCI in an attempt to eliminate any fuel issues as early as possible. The countermeasures appeared somewhat effective as fuel dilution was nearly cut in half and, naturally, the flash point improved in concert with that reduction.

1st column current UOA 2nd column last UOA
Miles on engine: 129600/124590
Miles on oil: 5010/4700
Air filter: New Purolator P+ (not the PureOne version)
Oil filter: EaO57 (FL-910/PH3614 size)
OIl: PZ Plat 5w-20
Sump size: 6 quarts
Make up oil: ZERO
Fuel adds: RLI and Amsoil PI

FE: 21/31
Cu: 11/21
Tn: 0/0
Pb: 7/12
Cr: 1/1
Nk: 1/2
Brn: 33/56
Al: 7/9
Si: 12/23
Na: 6/9
Pot: 0/0
Cal: 2300/2618
Mag: 28/82
Zn: 852/1119
Phos: 740/927
Bar: 1/0
Mol: 49/72
Ant: 0/0

Visc 40C 45.6/462
Visc 100C 8.3/8.1
TAN 2.24/1.30
Flash point: 365/305
OX: 23/19
Nit: 12/11
KF: 458/480
TBN: 6.1/8.6
Fuel: .799/1.42
Soot: 0/0
Glycol: 0.24/0
Visc index: 155/150

I'm please with the improvement. It proves to me that viscosity isn't a panacea for all ills in your engine. It can maybe mask a few things. AFAIK, this engine was never spec'd for a 20 weight in it's existence ..and surely nothing in this weight and an SM. Lead is my one thorn that I'm annoyed with. The rest just needs some continued massaging to straighten out.

Admittedly, this was only a 5k run. Not bad in itself given the out of spec usage, but it won't work in my desired OCI time frame. 6 months 9k is the minimum I can do. I was going to use Amsoil HDD 5w-30 next ..but this UOA has me tempted to use Bruceblend Superduty 0w-20-lite. My only reservation is that it's so highly additized that it will provide trace additive elements in future UOA ..probably for some time to come. I don't like to cloud any properties/effects of any future oils. I will ponder this for a few days. The sump hasn't been changed yet and I need to order a couple more EaO filters.


I really can't say enough about Terry's service. I highly recommend that you experience his service at least once. He's now added an audio component to his interpretation and has a new look to his text report with pointer actuated notes that expand when you touch them.

Questions and comments are always welcome...

 

[buster]

wow looks very good. So much for these engines needing a thicker oil eh? Gary, why not Amsoil 0w-20?

 

[Gary Allan]

BOGO at AA pre-Amsoil sponsorship - the liabilities of a stash. I haven't even touched my GC, BC, and the rest of my AGIP (which is from about when I signed on here).

Besides, I was (and still am) in the tuning part of it. It would have been a waste to buy a premier product like Amsoil 0w-20 if the viability of using a 20 weight showed extreme wear numbers. So, sacrificial BOGO PP was the lamb of choice. Keep in mind that I'm a 10k+/- kinda guy ..and these were 5k tests.

This wasn't truly looking for the "right oil" to use. It was more of a "hold my beer and watch this" type action. At the time I set out on this we had a multitude of thin-phobics. They're less in numbers now ..but still around. If I could get a 20 weight to work in a tractor engine, anyone can use the stuff (most likely).

Admittedly it presented some challenges and showed some issues that needed fixing up ..but at the end of the day I think that I've proved my point. Fuel was the devil here. Not viscosity. Something with a more robust add package may have done better.

Time to move on. The 4.0 has served its demonstrative purpose for long enough. The 2.5 4 banger with Bruceblend® is the guinea pig of focus now. Same antiquated pig iron tractor engine. I hope to squeeze in an RL endurance test on this at some point ..but I'm backed up just a bit and only so many miles in a year.

 

[buster]

Gary, what was the fuel # for this run? PP continues to impress. These engines are known for spitting out a lot metals but lasting a long time. With a TBN of 6.1, oil had a lot of life left.

 

[Gary Allan]

.799 ..down from 1.42. The magic target number is

As far as going longer in this service, in this engine anyway, I dunno.. I don't really understand the results, but oxidation and TAN are reaching sensible preferred limits. It's not an easy determination for us plebes. Have you heard of the "combustion triangle" or my adaptation with the "filtration triangle"? They're, more or less, immutable inter-relationship constants. Sorta like how if you lean out to control CO ..your NOX goes up. No way around it with simple air:fuel ratio management (hence some form of EGR/FGR is required). This appears to be more of a polyhedron where some things have a direct cause:effect relationship ..yet others that are impacted by alterations (fuel reductions, for example) but then suffer from some, otherwise beneficial, byproduct/coproduct influence. Very complex after you get past the surface view. I wish I understood it better. As of yet, I can't find "a way in" in a manner that I can integrate.

 

[Gary Allan]

Here's Terry's new format. You can't access them, but those little yellow things open up when you pass a cursor over them and show you his comments. Pretty neat. As I said before, and audio file comes with it and Terry goes through the numbers with you.

click me

 

[buster]

Very nice. I like his format.

 

[Pablo]

Gary - you run a clean engine. NICE report. Great oil.

Now here's where everyone can hate on Pablo. I think you could have done even better with an XW-30. I'm just saying........

 

[Gary Allan]

Sure, Pabs. HDD is going in there next and will probably go 10k/6m which ever comes first. This was just an experiment ..and was started pre-Amsoil for me. It was a reaction to all the anti-thin freaks. I didn't know what to expect. I just knew the the worst that I would see is some slightly elevated wear. No big deal. So I can only expect 330k before I need to change my timing chain instead of 375k

By that time, I hope there's a fuel to run in the thing.

There was one other reason for the 20 weight. I have a high volume aftermarket oil pump. 20 weight is the only thing that can flow through the engine without hitting the relief off idle. Even the 30 weights (older M1 0w-30 and 5w-30) slammed it up against the relief off idle...so I reasoned that the refresh rate would be higher on all lubed surfaces. I thought it would be a nice added benefit if it proved transparent in UOA in terms of wear markers.

This isn't the prettiest 4.0 UOA when compared to others ..but they aren't all carbon copies of each other either. This engine has thrown just a touch high in Pb from the first UOA ...but it's had no consumption of consequence other than when I switched from D1 to RTS ..and that stopped after a few OCIs.

 

[buster]

Gary, is the HDD in their now? This report is really good, especially being a 20wt oil in the 4.0L.

 

[SubLGT]

Exactly what countermeasures did you take to reduce your fuel dilution? Just the addition of fuel additive??

 

[Greaser]

My 40W gave single digit Fe as compared to double digit with the 20w.I also had fuel and coolant issues.The thicker oil held it's own better than the lighter oil in this type of engine IMO.Delvac 1 was great holding down iron in this engine and so was a couple of the thicker 30w oils if I remember.If you can get Fe down to single digits with near zero tin,lead,Aluminum,copper with these type of engines then your oil is working good.

 

[Greaser]

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...ge=2#Post960423

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:

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Exactly what countermeasures did you take to reduce your fuel dilution? Just the addition of fuel additive??

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Fuel adds and tune up parts. Mostly fuel adds this OCI (RLI and Amsoil PI). This is also the first OCI where the stock air box was on the entire OCI. I think those numbers (contamination) will improve since the air tubing was sitting for over 5 years. I tried cleaning it with every method that I could think of ..water, compressed air, running clean lint free cloth through it using a coat hanger ..final wash included a can of brake clean for a no residue final purge ..but I'm sure that I left something behind. It's elbowed and convoluted with expansion joints.

If fuel remains a problem, I'll consider getting a set of matched reconditioned injectors for it. This is a numb speed/density system and doesn't have nearly enough sophistication to poll and adjust each individual injector. Perhaps the 2000+ have some control over 3 injectors in pulse-width since they have (effectively) two banks of 3 with their own set of O2 sensors.

Quote:

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My 40W gave single digit Fe as compared to double digit with the 20w.

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A 40 weight may have produced less wear. It didn't do squat for my 2.5 under the conditions that I drove it. Again, this isn't a perfect wearing 4.0. I believe some insults pre-BITOG in noob stupidity set a few trends in motion for baseline conditions. Even a few during my BITOG tenure. I'm thankful that I didn't do enough damage to produce consumption in the typical usage that this engine sees. I think it's still got a long life ahead of it.

 

[Greaser]

From what I've seen from various UOA's is that the 4.0L and it's siblings show less iron (valve train,cylinder,timing chain)when using the thicker 30 and 40W oils.I made my oil choice based on the UOA's for this engine from this forum.The average for this engine for Fe was 26 ppm.My Fe is 7ppm & 9ppm on both my 4.OL engines using a thick 40W.These are the same numbers the "precise engineered" Japanese engines are showing and everyone is raving about.What were the "noob stupidity that set trends for baseline conditions"?

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:

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What were the "noob stupidity that set trends for baseline conditions"?

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Must I expose my smacked-$$$$ moves for all to see?

OK

, I'll give you a chuckle for the day. It's kinda the knowing smile that comes on your face when you see a youngster in a hole that you crawled out of at one time ..except that I was 40-something.

I had planned on FINALLY tinkering in true JCWhitney bliss that had evaded me all of my life. Never had the time/money for a project car ..etc...etc. Just a little too much knowledge and not enough wisdom. Stuff we see everyday here on BITOG.

Put a high volume oil pump in. Not a bad move, but probably unnecessary. Then I wanted dual remote oil filters. Not a bad deal ..but I wanted BIG filters. Not knowing that Ford had big ones available, I ordered a dual Chevy mount since I had used the big two quart filters on my pickup truck in the past.. No bypass valve. Now that probably wasn't so bad since they were dual filters ..probably handled it well. When I hooked it up, I reversed biased the hoses which was one of those brainphart type things. It knocked for a bit ..which I just assumed was the filters filling up. Luckily the filters had no ADBV

So, a few 1000 of breached media until I figured it out.

But that's not all. I bought an Amsoil dual guard ..but instead of using the mount, I just swapped in my Ford Permacool dual mount and used the Amsoil threaded inserts. I then used a Cummins full flow in tandem with a BE110. The Cummins full flow has no bypass either ..and my oil pump is in relief at anything off idle with anything other than a 20 weight.

So, although I didn't end up too scarred by the potentially disastrous screw ups, I probably did some insult that's not just going to disappear either.

I don't think it's going to shorten the life of this engine ..I just won't have any bragging rights for the most stellar UOA.



..and people wonder why I've constructed my own filtration/oil flow dogma. I'm one of those who gained insight by paying dearly for it. Hold my oil can and watch this. This Pilgrim refused to go home.

 

[MarkC]

Don't feel bad Gary, I actually put a quart of Slick50 in my Jeep many years back. I also ran Fram filters, and anytime I heard about a new fuel or oil add I tossed it in.
Now, thanks to this forum (and Terry) I'm a bit more laid back. (but not much).
My last UOA was 7ppm iron with plain old Havoline 10W30, and I'm too weary to experiment further.

 

[Greaser]

So why is it when the Honda and Toyota UOA's get single digit readings on wear metals and everyone is in the wow factor. But a Detroit"POS tractor engine" gets these readings on regular 10W-30 and runs 200k plus nobody says chit?Gary,you had some serious oil filter issues

 

[Gary Allan]

It was a learning experience......

..but why no love for your good UOA? They just aren't en vougue, Greaser. Most of your truly great engines (in terms of reliability) are rather boring. The old 318, the Slant 6, the AMC/DC I6

 

[Greaser]

I guess we are dinosaurs