87 BMW 325i M20 engine. Valvoline VR1. Advice

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Originally Posted By: Nick26



True, but also in 1987 gasoline was straight gasoline. No talk about ethanol. Now there is ethanol in most gas, so I have to go all over the place to refill with non-ethanol gasoline.


Actually, Ethanol has been used since the 1950's. There was a historic gas station thread on here a while back and I was surprised to see it being offered back then
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I ran E10 in my Mustang forever and never saw a fuel system related issue. That being said, premium gas at many major gas stations up here (Shell and Esso) have no ethanol, so as long as you run V-power or Esso 91 octane, you don't have any ethanol to contend with.
 
Ethonal or no Ethonal since the 1950s is not important to me now as I have a particular gas station I feel up with regular gas that is non-ethonal gas.

I need to know about the oil and what to use, if in fact the Valvoline VR1 with the detergent is going to harm other parts of my car.
 
Originally Posted By: Nick26
What options do I have if I want to stick with 20w-50 and conventional oil, not synthetic?


20w-50 is just too thick for that engine. When your car was built starship was popular singing we built this city on rock and roll and Duran Duran was cool.
Now where are they,which is exactly my point. As times changed the oils we have available improved and we left the garbage by the wayside.
Same goes for oil. Look. You have a European car. Oil manufacturers make euro specific oils. First off I suggest going to the "euro" heading,then the particular sub headings.
You would be hard pressed to find a better oil than M1 0w-40. Then the next best is German castrol 0w-30 and pennzoil ultra euro 5w-40.
Any of these 3 oils will ensure many hundreds of thousands of miles more and in reality any of these oils will keep your engine healthy for longer that the oil originally specified for it.
Now this flat tappet insanity has to end. Just because a cam has flat tappets doesn't necessarily mean it needs high zddp. Today's oils lower the zddp but they add friction modifiers to compensate thereby lessening the zddp required to protect the cam,and engine.
Tell your BMW forum to get out of the Stone Age. Zddp is a good anti-wear agent however its not an absolute need to have.
Engines that require a high zddp oil are,for example a ford non roller small block capable of spinning 7000 rpm. Now that same ford small block with a roller valve train no longer needs elevated zddp,and that same non roller except it only spins to 5500 rpm no longer needs the elevated zddp.
High lift,non roller,high rpm v blocks,high spring rates(beehive springs) will generally require a high zddp oil. But not all of them do. And generally an hdeo has more than enough zddp for them to last a lifetime.
Yes. Zddp is reduced but oils have friction modifiers,which are actually better since they aren't dependent on hot oil temps to work.
Get over the flat tappet stuff. It's so overdone its charcoal.

Just sayin
 
20w50 is way to thick. most wear is at start up. run a 0w40/5w40/or a 15w40 HDEO if your stuck on the super thick oils. 20w50 is highly unnecessary especially in the colder months. i would run M1 0w40 or t6 from walmart if i were you.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


That is incorrect. Both of our engines are cam over bucket. Mine is valve springed to spin to 7,000RPM, which, if anything, means that mine requires higher levels of anti-wear additives than yours.

If mine were roller and yours were flat tappet, you'd have a point, but that's not the case here.


The M20 is not cam over bucket, it has rocker arms with manual screw type valve adjustment.
 
Originally Posted By: Christopher Hussey
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


That is incorrect. Both of our engines are cam over bucket. Mine is valve springed to spin to 7,000RPM, which, if anything, means that mine requires higher levels of anti-wear additives than yours.

If mine were roller and yours were flat tappet, you'd have a point, but that's not the case here.


The M20 is not cam over bucket, it has rocker arms with manual screw type valve adjustment.


So similar to some of the Honda stuff then? If that's the case, then my point stands, as those engines don't require stratospheric levels of anti-wear additives either, and are also spun quite high.
 
I had an 87 325i with 257kmi on it when I bought it, on original engine but with broken timing belt. Was given all receipts since new, I believe the previous owner used conventional 10w40. Opened the engine up and everything looked like new, could still see the crosshatching in the cylinders like the day they were machined.
 
Originally Posted By: Nick26
I need to know about the oil and what to use, if in fact the Valvoline VR1 with the detergent is going to harm other parts of my car.


You keep asking the same question over and over, and Overkill answers it every time but you ignore his answer because it doesn't fit your preconceived notions. Are you learning impaired?

Just take his advice and say thank you that you are now doing better by your BMW.
 
I also have an old BMW, although it is a 4 cyl e36.
I think the OM for mine has the same temp/visc chart as does yours.
Way back when, BMW recommended very thick oils for warm weather, as did Mercedes.
There was then no mention of additive levels to be used, only an API spec and an SAE grade spec.
Oils generally were more prone to shearing then than now, and the MM on BMWs alowed for fairly long drains if followed, with no requirement that synthetic oil be used, only oil meeting the listed API spec as well as the recommended SAE grade spec.
Oils are better today.
I've tried various oils in my old BMW.
I ran Valvoline Nextgen Maxlife 10W-40 for 4K with results that couldn't have been better.
I'm too lazy to search the UOA forum for a link to the UOA that I posted, but you can use the search function to find it if you'd like.
My point is that your engine needs neither a special add pack nor anything as thick as a 20W-50.
Finally, a run of VR1 shouldn't hurt anything.
Did you buy the API SL VR1?
That has a slight boost in ZDDP over SM/SN VWB, but it shouldn't be enough to cause any harm over the course of one OCI.
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Valvoline told me the street VR1 is perfect for 3/3000 oci's.


They told me the same thing. 3 months or 3,000 miles which ever comes first. While there regular "premium" oil does not have any time frame.
 
I have bought and have used the last 2-3 oil changes the regular VR1, silver bottle for street use.

I havent changed my oil in around 11 months but it has not hit 3,000 miles since my last oil change.


Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I also have an old BMW, although it is a 4 cyl e36.
I think the OM for mine has the same temp/visc chart as does yours.
Way back when, BMW recommended very thick oils for warm weather, as did Mercedes.
There was then no mention of additive levels to be used, only an API spec and an SAE grade spec.
Oils generally were more prone to shearing then than now, and the MM on BMWs alowed for fairly long drains if followed, with no requirement that synthetic oil be used, only oil meeting the listed API spec as well as the recommended SAE grade spec.
Oils are better today.
I've tried various oils in my old BMW.
I ran Valvoline Nextgen Maxlife 10W-40 for 4K with results that couldn't have been better.
I'm too lazy to search the UOA forum for a link to the UOA that I posted, but you can use the search function to find it if you'd like.
My point is that your engine needs neither a special add pack nor anything as thick as a 20W-50.
Finally, a run of VR1 shouldn't hurt anything.
Did you buy the API SL VR1?
That has a slight boost in ZDDP over SM/SN VWB, but it shouldn't be enough to cause any harm over the course of one OCI.
 
Honestly, listen to overk1ll....he knows what he's talking about, cares about his BMW, and wouldn't steer you wrong.

If price really isn't much of an issue, get M1 0W-40. You really can't beat that oil for Euro applications...it is about as 'capable' of an oil as you can find, seriously.
 
Originally Posted By: Nick26

I read on the BMW forum that my car needs a high Zinc oil.

The OP was probably referring to me.

There seems to be a lot of hate on xW50 multigrade oils in this thread and that surprises me. With OEM cam and rockers the M20B25 engine has ~175psi(1) of peak nose pressure. My perception is that a HTHS #'s better than 4.0cS for that much spring pressure is preferred and certainly above 3.7 or so. Some xW40's have HTHS #'s >4.0, but most do not. That would indicate to me that thinner oils for Winter use should be chosen with care. Brad Penn and Swepco come to mind.

It's no slam dunk tho. The owner's manual for the M20 recommends 20W50 has a hot summer oil.
http://www.gress.org/Home/Cars/TrackTale...anualOilRec.htm

But a 2005 BMW technical document re. oil choices reduces the emphasis on xW50 in favor of 10W40. Perhaps because the HTHS #'s for xW50 in the early 1980's were in 2005 being achieved by xW40's.

http://www.gress.org/Home/Cars/TrackTale...cs-and-Recs.pdf

Things to note in the docs.
1) Reduced emphasis on 20W50. The doc is kinda hard to puzzle out because I don't have the appendices, but areas B&D of the diagram would both seem to apply and D has no xW50 even listed.

2) 20W50 is specified of having a lower limit of -10deg. I wouldn't choose 20W50 as a winter oil, but I don't understand all that hate here for 20W50 as a summer oil.

3) The M20 is listed at the bottom as an "Other" engine.

Another factor that might play into BMW's later reduced emphasis on xW50 for the M20 is that later engines ran cooler oil temps. The early models did not have oil coolers. I race the same car the PO owns and have experimented with various oil related ideas. W/o an oil cooler oil temps will happily hit 245deg. W/ an oil cooler they don't seem to go over 225deg.

The issue continues to be ambiguous. Here's a BMW doc that says both "Use the oil in the owner's handbook" (high temp oil is 20W50), but also says "Use 5W30 or 15W40" (at the end of the doc). The reference to the lighter oils tho is suspect because BMW is recommending using what they sell, as opposed to recommending using what they don't sell.
http://www.lindvigs.com/obioban/BMWEngineOils.pdf

Thick oil is not dead at BMW. I believe the last couple generations of BMW M3 used a Castrol TWS 10W60, indicating that reports of the demise of thick oil might be premature. Certainly the guys racing M3's seem to prefer a thick oil to handle the high oil temps.

Here's an interesting thread re. the M3 and Castrol TWS 10W60. Note the discussion of how the BMW Marketing department influenced the decision making. http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=295656

I'm surprised at the reduced emphasis on ZDDP in this thread. Sure, there's been work done on substitutes, but the folks that seem oriented on old-school 2 valve engines and their stiff valve springs still seem to be oriented on ZDDP, no? I don't see that Navarro, for example, has changed his mind.
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-9...j4-sm-oils.html


@Doug Hillary. Sir, about 5yrs ago I was doing a lot of research on oils. I found a lot of your stuff and read it thru many times. Thanks for your efforts to educate folks.

Note that I'm not arguing with y'all, I want to learn. Support the case you're making for staying away from xW50 as a summer oil, and that ZDDP isn't that big of a deal anymore for old school engines with big valves and strong springs.

PO. I wouldn't worry about e10 gas. Most everyone is using it because e0 gas is too hard to get. e0 would certainly be my preference, but I'm too lazy to drive across town and pay 15% more it. I go fetch e0 for the race car, but not for the DD which is an '88 BMW 535is so it's engine has a heck of a lot in common with our M20 engines.

Re. VR1. As was correctly pointed out in this thread, it's the NSL version of VR1 that is low on detergent. The NSL version is rarely available at the local autoparts store.

(1) This # comes from Jim Rowe@Metric Mechanic.
 
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It would be interesting to compare the cited open pressure (175lbs) to the spec pressure for the cam-over-bucket setups on later BMW engines like the M54, S62....etc.

Compared to roller pushrod engines, that pressure is so light! LOL! The springs in my 302 (Comp Beehive springs) are 385lbs open, the K-Motion K-800's that are supposed to be in there, spec, at my grinder's install height, ~425lbs IIRC.
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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
It would be interesting to compare the cited open pressure (175lbs) to the spec pressure for the cam-over-bucket setups on later BMW engines like the M54, S62....etc.

Compared to roller pushrod engines, that pressure is so light! LOL! The springs in my 302 (Comp Beehive springs) are 385lbs open, the K-Motion K-800's that are supposed to be in there, spec, at my grinder's install height, ~425lbs IIRC.
smile.gif


From what I understand, the beauty of roller pushrod engines is the high lift and stiff springs that they allow. Dang that's some serious springs you mentioned.

This guy has been working for 2 years on a roller cam M20. He went with 280lb springs and set up for an incredible ~0.9" of lift vs. OEM of ~0.5" http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108906&highlight=roller

My perception is that cam-over-bucket can tolerate more wear than our M20's because the bucket spins. But I add the caveat that I'm a one-trick pony. The M20 is really all I know.
 
Originally Posted By: RangerGress
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
It would be interesting to compare the cited open pressure (175lbs) to the spec pressure for the cam-over-bucket setups on later BMW engines like the M54, S62....etc.

Compared to roller pushrod engines, that pressure is so light! LOL! The springs in my 302 (Comp Beehive springs) are 385lbs open, the K-Motion K-800's that are supposed to be in there, spec, at my grinder's install height, ~425lbs IIRC.
smile.gif


From what I understand, the beauty of roller pushrod engines is the high lift and stiff springs that they allow. Dang that's some serious springs you mentioned.

This guy has been working for 2 years on a roller cam M20. He went with 280lb springs and set up for an incredible ~0.9" of lift vs. OEM of ~0.5" http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108906&highlight=roller

My perception is that cam-over-bucket can tolerate more wear than our M20's because the bucket spins. But I add the caveat that I'm a one-trick pony. The M20 is really all I know.


I think some Honda engines might give us a good (better?) basis for comparison, as some of them have a very similar valvetrain setup and don't spec anything at all exotic for oil
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