The problem I see is with ourselves, meaning as car owners we are used to doing things our own way, we see a commercial or a friend of ours says do this and your car will run perfectly, how many of us really read our owner's manuals, I am on the Auto-Rx board and it is amazing how many people want to use a different grade oil or ask if they can use synthetic oil during the whole process, Frank gets a lot of repetitive questions from people on the board who could easily read through all of the forums and the FAQ and find the answers, when I did the Auto-Rx process I went through a total of 18 oil filters, I just posted my results, on the board and if Frank or someone else commented great, I had a ticking noise too, thought it was my valvetrain, turns out it was my speedometer cable, I found the answer on another site, so I greased the cable and no more noise, the other problem I see is that people want a quick fix, if your car is leaking oil, using oil, making strange sounds, these are not going to be fixed in a day of driving with Auto-Rx in there, I had to do over 12,000 miles of driving doing the clean and rinse phases and during the middle of it Frank changed the instructions, he knows the product better than me, at the time I started Auto-Rx I had 343,000 miles on the engine so I knew it would take time to get my results, the same thing on here, if I have a question 9 times out of 10 it has already been answered because I do a search on this forum, the only thing I post are my results, I bought Auto-Rx because of what I read on BITOG, then I woke Frank up one morning asking questions and I was 100% convinced in what he was talking about, it was either Auto-Rx or another engine, I certainly was not going to take the engine apart and try to clean it, the man has made a great product lets be thankful.
800 miles in with ARX got a ticking noise
- Thread starter OCB
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: Rick20
"Mineral oil is recommended for rinsing in that it tends shrink down the seal back onto the rotating shaft, as opposed to using an oil that causes swelling and may keep the seal a bit limp."
Not trying to be nitpicky, but did you mean to say "back away from the rotating shaft," since a slight shrinking of the seal would increase the seal's dianmeter, relaxing it "away" from the shaft.
(Swelling of a seal would decrease its diameter and make it "hug" the shaft a bit tighter). And here we're talking about shrinking or swelling in terms of tens of thousandths of an inch.
Molakule what is what here?
Now we seem to be right back where we started. Molecule your above statement, and Rick20's response below, directly contradict each other.
Originally Posted By: Rick20
I agree with you that the seepage is usually caused by contaminants getting lodged in and around the very fragile lip surface.
And that A) the contaminants need to be dissolved or removed,
and B) that mineral oil tends to help the seal tightening down on the rotating shaft.
Can we please get a clear and unambiguous answer to this question?
Does mineral oil [dino], help shrink seals back down onto the rotating shaft, as Rick20 claims above?
Or does mineral oil [dino], shrink the seal, increasing it's diameter, thus relaxing it away from the shaft, as you state above.
Only one of those statemnts can be true.
So which statement is true?
No spin from anybody now.
Which statement is true?
Is this what you guys are trying to say?
ARX dissolves sludge coating seals which leads to their degradation. ARX also dissolves and and helps removes deposits which lodge between the lip of seals on rotating shafts in the following manner.
Mineral oil [dino] is recommended in both the clean and rinse phases of an ARX application, because mineral oil [dino] will slightly shrink seals. This slight shrinkage causes seals to slightly back away from rotating shafts, and that allows ARX to remove contaminants, deposited between the outer edge [lip] of seals and rotating shafts, so seals can then evenly reseat themselves back onto rotating shafts.
Originally Posted By: Rick20
"Mineral oil is recommended for rinsing in that it tends shrink down the seal back onto the rotating shaft, as opposed to using an oil that causes swelling and may keep the seal a bit limp."
Not trying to be nitpicky, but did you mean to say "back away from the rotating shaft," since a slight shrinking of the seal would increase the seal's dianmeter, relaxing it "away" from the shaft.
(Swelling of a seal would decrease its diameter and make it "hug" the shaft a bit tighter). And here we're talking about shrinking or swelling in terms of tens of thousandths of an inch.
Molakule what is what here?
Now we seem to be right back where we started. Molecule your above statement, and Rick20's response below, directly contradict each other.
Originally Posted By: Rick20
I agree with you that the seepage is usually caused by contaminants getting lodged in and around the very fragile lip surface.
And that A) the contaminants need to be dissolved or removed,
and B) that mineral oil tends to help the seal tightening down on the rotating shaft.
Can we please get a clear and unambiguous answer to this question?
Does mineral oil [dino], help shrink seals back down onto the rotating shaft, as Rick20 claims above?
Or does mineral oil [dino], shrink the seal, increasing it's diameter, thus relaxing it away from the shaft, as you state above.
Only one of those statemnts can be true.
So which statement is true?
No spin from anybody now.
Which statement is true?
Is this what you guys are trying to say?
ARX dissolves sludge coating seals which leads to their degradation. ARX also dissolves and and helps removes deposits which lodge between the lip of seals on rotating shafts in the following manner.
Mineral oil [dino] is recommended in both the clean and rinse phases of an ARX application, because mineral oil [dino] will slightly shrink seals. This slight shrinkage causes seals to slightly back away from rotating shafts, and that allows ARX to remove contaminants, deposited between the outer edge [lip] of seals and rotating shafts, so seals can then evenly reseat themselves back onto rotating shafts.
Last edited:
I typed a bit too fast, in order to get that in, during the all too brief IMO editing time allowed.
Hopefully this will make more sense.
ARX dissolves sludge which coats seals and causes them to degrade. ARX also dissolves and removes deposits, which can lodge between seals and rotating shafts, in the following manner.
One of the reasons mineral oil [dino] is recommended, in both the clean and rinse phases of an ARX application, is because mineral oil [dino] will slightly shrink seals.
This slight shrinkage, causes seals to back away slightly from rotating shafts, which allows ARX to penetrate between the two surfaces, to dissolve and remove contaminants deposited there. As a result of this aspect of ARX cleaning, seals can then evenly re-seat themselves back onto rotating shafts, to restore any function that was lost due the buildup of deposits between seals and rotating shafts.
Hopefully this will make more sense.
ARX dissolves sludge which coats seals and causes them to degrade. ARX also dissolves and removes deposits, which can lodge between seals and rotating shafts, in the following manner.
One of the reasons mineral oil [dino] is recommended, in both the clean and rinse phases of an ARX application, is because mineral oil [dino] will slightly shrink seals.
This slight shrinkage, causes seals to back away slightly from rotating shafts, which allows ARX to penetrate between the two surfaces, to dissolve and remove contaminants deposited there. As a result of this aspect of ARX cleaning, seals can then evenly re-seat themselves back onto rotating shafts, to restore any function that was lost due the buildup of deposits between seals and rotating shafts.
If your engine has seal leaks, which are caused by the buildup of deposits between rotating shafts and the corresponding seal, the wisest course of action is to remove those deposits.
Merely softening and swelling seals, by using seal conditioning agents and HM oils containing them, may temporarily close the little gaps caused by such deposits and affect a better seal temporarily. The deposits remain however, and you get a better seal only as long as your seals can be kept soft.
Auto-Rx however will actually remove those deposits on rotating shafts, 'and' it will thoroughly clean your seals. This will arrest both the process of accelerated seal material degradation, caused by the deposits which coat them, and seal surface damage caused by the abrasion of hardened deposits upon sealing surfaces of even softened seals.
If you have a tiny pebble in your shoe that begins to cause you discomfort, wouldn't removing the pebble be the smart thing to do, even if there was some stuff you could pour in your shoe to make it feel better?
If I ever decide to use seal conditioning agents, it will be after I have thoroughly cleaned my engine with ARX, and not before.
Merely softening and swelling seals, by using seal conditioning agents and HM oils containing them, may temporarily close the little gaps caused by such deposits and affect a better seal temporarily. The deposits remain however, and you get a better seal only as long as your seals can be kept soft.
Auto-Rx however will actually remove those deposits on rotating shafts, 'and' it will thoroughly clean your seals. This will arrest both the process of accelerated seal material degradation, caused by the deposits which coat them, and seal surface damage caused by the abrasion of hardened deposits upon sealing surfaces of even softened seals.
If you have a tiny pebble in your shoe that begins to cause you discomfort, wouldn't removing the pebble be the smart thing to do, even if there was some stuff you could pour in your shoe to make it feel better?
If I ever decide to use seal conditioning agents, it will be after I have thoroughly cleaned my engine with ARX, and not before.
You are a gifted writer Oilgal. You must have majored in English. I nominate you to re-write the ARX website...or atleast proof read and make corrections for Frank!
Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
You are a gifted writer Oilgal. You must have majored in English. I nominate you to re-write the ARX website...or atleast proof read and make corrections for Frank!
Thank you for the compliment INDYMAC.
So that makes better sense now? I sure hope so. I just wanted to make sure.
Mission accomplished then.
PS
I only have a GED, and my writing skills reflect that really. The best I can do will have to suffice.
You are a gifted writer Oilgal. You must have majored in English. I nominate you to re-write the ARX website...or atleast proof read and make corrections for Frank!
Thank you for the compliment INDYMAC.
Mission accomplished then.
PS
I only have a GED, and my writing skills reflect that really. The best I can do will have to suffice.
GED??
Originally Posted By: sprintman
GED??
That's right. I have a GED. I don't have any college. I have an education instead rather.
GED??
That's right. I have a GED. I don't have any college. I have an education instead rather.
MolaKule
Staff member
Avery good description, Oilgal.
I think Rick may have misunderstood my response.
When seals swell, the internal diameter of the seal (that surface which faces or rubs the shaft) decreases, making a slighty tighter grip on the shaft. Conversely, when a seal shrinks or relaxes, the internal diameter of the seal decreases, reducing its grip on the shaft.
When esters (seal swell agents and cleaners), such as you have in ARX, diffuse into a seal, they cause a swelling of the seal, as well as cleaning of the seal. The swelling reduces the internal diameter of the seal. Mineral oil could allow the seal to relax to its original diameter. This expansion/contraction could "exercise" the seal and allow it to release contaminants.
One would certainly want the seal's lip surface to be cleaned before any other swelling might occur. Any contaminats cleaned from the surface of the seals lip would make for longer service without leakage.
I think Rick may have misunderstood my response.
When seals swell, the internal diameter of the seal (that surface which faces or rubs the shaft) decreases, making a slighty tighter grip on the shaft. Conversely, when a seal shrinks or relaxes, the internal diameter of the seal decreases, reducing its grip on the shaft.
When esters (seal swell agents and cleaners), such as you have in ARX, diffuse into a seal, they cause a swelling of the seal, as well as cleaning of the seal. The swelling reduces the internal diameter of the seal. Mineral oil could allow the seal to relax to its original diameter. This expansion/contraction could "exercise" the seal and allow it to release contaminants.
One would certainly want the seal's lip surface to be cleaned before any other swelling might occur. Any contaminats cleaned from the surface of the seals lip would make for longer service without leakage.
You mean I actually got that right? Not bad for a girl with no formal education. Truth is, all you fine people, are learning me but good. Thanks Molakule.
I tend to disagree. When a donut seal shrinks the OD and the ID diminish. Of coarse the outside diameter is never the cause of a leak or weapage on a crankshaft, it is the ID that is in question. If the seal on the whole is shrunk, then the tighting on the shaft does incur. By the same token, if the ID is swelled, then premature friction with the rotating shaft will wear the seal. Metal beats polymer every time.
Auto-Rx does not swell nitrile rubber or similar polymer rotational seal materials in a motor. I have even tried it under heated conditions for extended periods of time. My finding are no an ioda more than simple heat would.
I have spent half a life time examining seals in printing presses whereby seal performance was low or inadequate in occiltating rotational seals. The majority was due to contamiant build up under the sealing lip. Yet after hand cleaning the seals would still not conform to a proper seal. It was only after an ARX cleaning with a mineral oil rinse that these seals would perform as designed. So go figure.
I have also done many studies on solvents used in printing and how they relate to the effect on seal materials in these units. In many cases solvents would obviously swell the seal materials. Some would change the ID and OD to great extent. Some would affect the ID and OD in opposite directions. Some would cause irreverible swelling, while others would cause only temporary swelling.
First contaminants must be dissolved off and from within the pourous polymer seal to have a chance at resealing. But,it is still my belief that the mineral oil shrinks the typical crank seal both OD and ID down onto the shaft, by allowing the polymer to find its original shape.
Auto-Rx does not swell nitrile rubber or similar polymer rotational seal materials in a motor. I have even tried it under heated conditions for extended periods of time. My finding are no an ioda more than simple heat would.
I have spent half a life time examining seals in printing presses whereby seal performance was low or inadequate in occiltating rotational seals. The majority was due to contamiant build up under the sealing lip. Yet after hand cleaning the seals would still not conform to a proper seal. It was only after an ARX cleaning with a mineral oil rinse that these seals would perform as designed. So go figure.
I have also done many studies on solvents used in printing and how they relate to the effect on seal materials in these units. In many cases solvents would obviously swell the seal materials. Some would change the ID and OD to great extent. Some would affect the ID and OD in opposite directions. Some would cause irreverible swelling, while others would cause only temporary swelling.
First contaminants must be dissolved off and from within the pourous polymer seal to have a chance at resealing. But,it is still my belief that the mineral oil shrinks the typical crank seal both OD and ID down onto the shaft, by allowing the polymer to find its original shape.
MolaKule
Staff member
In common use of the terms, Swelling indicates an increase in volume, whereas Shrinkage is a decrease in volume.
Increasing the volume (swelling) of a simple "O" ring type seal, for example, causes the ring's inner diameter to decrease, since the donut is becoming larger.
Decreasing the volume (shrinkage) causes the inner diameter to increase.
In most cases, the outer dameter of course is always fixed, as in automotive shaft seals.
Many esters are used in the manufacture of seals as "plasticizers."
Plasticizers are used to increase the flexibility of materials that would otherwise be "inflexible."
Increasing the volume (swelling) of a simple "O" ring type seal, for example, causes the ring's inner diameter to decrease, since the donut is becoming larger.
Decreasing the volume (shrinkage) causes the inner diameter to increase.
In most cases, the outer dameter of course is always fixed, as in automotive shaft seals.
Many esters are used in the manufacture of seals as "plasticizers."
Plasticizers are used to increase the flexibility of materials that would otherwise be "inflexible."
.... goodie goodie ... I get to learn more cool stuff.
And the tick in the engine is an ok thing. Comes and goes and should be gone forever after the rinse.
Five vehicles with Auto-Rx and I've had five successes.
Thanks Frank.
Five vehicles with Auto-Rx and I've had five successes.
Thanks Frank.
Are you Frank from ARX?
No I'm the guy that thanked Frank from ARX for lots of good service.
You?
You?
- Status
Similar threads
