737 max... what now?

[Astro14]

Some airlines have been pushing for the NMA. Some airlines want a 737 forever.

Forever.

When your whole business is built on a single fleet type, you save lots of money in pilot training, maintenance, and logistics.

That airline, in particular, pressured Boeing to kill the NMA a decade ago, and build a new 737, so that they could continue their business model predicated on the 737.

That is water over the dam, however, as Boeing looks ahead and airlines are eager to operate the fuel-efficient, longer range Max.

We will be flying the Max by January. We already have simulators, our Max aircraft have had the modifications installed in anticipation of this, and the training program is in place for our roughly 4,500 737 pilots.

 

[wpod]

Astro, if proper could you in the future explain in layman terms the procedure of training to overcome the problem.

 

[Astro14]

Well, if we are going into this, let’s start with the understanding that FAA approval was given after coordination with other international regulatory agencies, NASA, and airline operators. This wasn’t a stand alone effort. It was huge. Everyone had to buy off on the fix as sufficient and the airplane as safe.

Next, the airplanes are getting a wiring update and new software. Both are part of the fix.

For training, at least with my airline, manuals have been rewritten, procedures have been rewritten, pilots are learning both, and all 737 pilots are getting an extra day in the simulator during their annual training. In our annual training, we alternate a three day simulator session, with a two day session, every nine months. For the 737 pilots, they get an extra day tacked on the above footprint on their first session.

Each day of training a pilot is very expensive. The simulator alone is $25-30 million. The time for each pilot, and the instructor, is expensive, too.

The extra day is actually a very big deal.

Once the simulator training is complete, that pilot is legal to fly a Max. Not before.

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ 737 MAX ... the most scritinized and safest airplane in the world.

 

[y_p_w]

^^^ 737 MAX ... the most scritinized and safest airplane in the world.

I'd hope by now they'd have the MCAS issues worked out. And every pilot who might fly one trained how to deal with it.

I know they've lost some orders, but for a plane with such a reputation it's kind of odd that most of the orders are still in place.

 

[ragtoplvr]

Well, if we are going into this, let’s start with the understanding that FAA approval was given after coordination with other international regulatory agencies, NASA, and airline operators. This wasn’t a stand alone effort. It was huge. Everyone had to buy off on the fix as sufficient and the airplane as safe.

Next, the airplanes are getting a wiring update and new software. Both are part of the fix.

For training, at least with my airline, manuals have been rewritten, procedures have been rewritten, pilots are learning both, and all 737 pilots are getting an extra day in the simulator during their annual training. In our annual training, we alternate a three day simulator session, with a two day session, every nine months. For the 737 pilots, they get an extra day tacked on the above footprint on their first session.

Each day of training a pilot is very expensive. The simulator alone is $25-30 million. The time for each pilot, and the instructor, is expensive, too.

The extra day is actually a very big deal.

Once the simulator training is complete, that pilot is legal to fly a Max. Not before.

while the extra day is expansive, it is sore to be less than a crash. I for one would gladly pay an extra $5.00 per ticket for my share of that extra day.

Rod

 

[Astro14]

I'd hope by now they'd have the MCAS issues worked out. And every pilot who might fly one trained how to deal with it.

I know they've lost some orders, but for a plane with such a reputation it's kind of odd that most of the orders are still in place.

What do you think Boeing, the FAA, NASA and others have been doing for the past 18 months? This is the longest grounding of a commercial aircraft type, ever.

Until the FAA approved the airplane for flight, and subsequently approved the airlines' training programs, airlines couldn't train on it. With yesterday's news, the training begins, and it begins with the instructors. Then the pilots.

The wiring and software modifications have been done on our airplanes, not certain about the rest of the airplanes. The modifications entail 1,000 man hours of work. This ain't cheap, either. The modified airplanes have to be inspected by the FAA, then test-flown, multiple times, to ensure proper systems performance, before being released to passenger service.

As far as reputation? With several thousand in service, the 737 is one of the safest airplanes ever built. I'm not a Max fan, but remember that the airplane experienced problems in the hands of inept crews. Crews that couldn't follow procedures or figure out what was wrong with it.

Word on the street is that SWA had a couple of MCAS events on their Max aircraft before it was grounded. They disconnected the autopilot and trim and flew the airplane. You never heard about it.

Finally, folks say that they're willing to pay the extra $5 for more pilot training. Booking history suggests that they're not, and will book a $5 cheaper ticket without regard to pilot training, pilot proficiency, airline maintenance history, or any other intangible. Folks assume all airlines are the same, when clearly, they are not.

 

[c502cid]

What do you think Boeing, the FAA, NASA and others have been doing for the past 18 months? This is the longest grounding of a commercial aircraft type, ever.

Until the FAA approved the airplane for flight, and subsequently approved the airlines' training programs, airlines couldn't train on it. With yesterday's news, the training begins, and it begins with the instructors. Then the pilots.

The wiring and software modifications have been done on our airplanes, not certain about the rest of the airplanes. The modifications entail 1,000 man hours of work. This ain't cheap, either. The modified airplanes have to be inspected by the FAA, then test-flown, multiple times, to ensure proper systems performance, before being released to passenger service.

As far as reputation? With several thousand in service, the 737 is one of the safest airplanes ever built. I'm not a Max fan, but remember that the airplane experienced problems in the hands of inept crews. Crews that couldn't follow procedures or figure out what was wrong with it.

Word on the street is that SWA had a couple of MCAS events on their Max aircraft before it was grounded. They disconnected the autopilot and trim and flew the airplane. You never heard about it.

Finally, folks say that they're willing to pay the extra $5 for more pilot training. Booking history suggests that they're not, and will book a $5 cheaper ticket without regard to pilot training, pilot proficiency, airline maintenance history, or any other intangible. Folks assume all airlines are the same, when clearly, they are not.

Why I fly United Airlines in a nutshell right here. I know the pilot training is second to none and the airplane maintenance is at the top of their game. I take a lot of grief from my colleagues flying United internationally when I could fly anyone, but knowing I have United pilots and crews up there is worth it to me. I'll get on a United 737max without giving it a second thought.

 

[Astro14]

For that, I am grateful. If you’re on a 757, stop by the flight deck, it might be me! Cheers, Astro

 

[y_p_w]

As far as reputation? With several thousand in service, the 737 is one of the safest airplanes ever built. I'm not a Max fan, but remember that the airplane experienced problems in the hands of inept crews. Crews that couldn't follow procedures or figure out what was wrong with it.

Word on the street is that SWA had a couple of MCAS events on their Max aircraft before it was grounded. They disconnected the autopilot and trim and flew the airplane. You never heard about it.

Isn't there a huge difference between older and newer 737s? I know Southwest talks a lot about having an all 737 fleet, but for a long time they had a lot older models that were still flying. On one flight I saw the inside of the cockpit, and it was all dials and gauges. Must have been one of the oldest planes they had. I've sat in a newer Cessna 172, which had a glass cockpit.

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

Why I fly United Airlines in a nutshell right here. I know the pilot training is second to none and the airplane maintenance is at the top of their game. I take a lot of grief from my colleagues flying United internationally when I could fly anyone, but knowing I have United pilots and crews up there is worth it to me. I'll get on a United 737max without giving it a second thought.

It has always been my understanding that UAL airplane maintenance is second to none.

 

[y_p_w]

It has always been my understanding that UAL airplane maintenance is second to none.

I know they have their main maintenance facility at San Francisco International Airport. For years they didn't change the traditional "UNITED AIR LINES" lettering on the building closest to the freeway. I saw news pieces on the place when I was a kid in the 80s. The reporter claimed that United would do a teardown of every plane in their inventory at SFO each 6 months or so. I don't know if that was true, but it sounded impressive.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Word on the street is that SWA had a couple of MCAS events on their Max aircraft before it was grounded. They disconnected the autopilot and trim and flew the airplane. You never heard about it.

If someone's cruise control on their car went berserk it seems the first thing you'd want to do it disengage it. It's actually kind of mind boggling why not every pilot in the world would over-ride any auto system and just fly the plane as the first reaction to a major flight control issue going on.

 

[Jetronic]

computer says "no"...

 

[ragtoplvr]

If someone's cruise control on their car went berserk it seems the first thing you'd want to do it disengage it. It's actually kind of mind boggling why not every pilot in the world would over-ride any auto system and just fly the plane as the first reaction to a major flight control issue going on.

You have never met my sister. I will never ride with her.

 

[4WD]

American Puts Boeing 737 Max in Air Before Public Return

American Airlines is taking its long-grounded Boeing 737 Max jets out of storage, updating key flight-control software, and flying the planes in preparation for the first flights with paying passengers later this month.

www.newsmax.com

 

[Tikka]

Hi
Ryanair is about to increase its order for the 737 Max it would seem. Allegedly at some knock down prices.

Ryanair set on European domination with fresh Boeing 737 Max order | The Independent

 

[wpod]

I know they have their main maintenance facility at San Francisco International Airport. For years they didn't change the traditional "UNITED AIR LINES" lettering on the building closest to the freeway. I saw news pieces on the place when I was a kid in the 80s. The reporter claimed that United would do a teardown of every plane in their inventory at SFO each 6 months or so. I don't know if that was true, but it sounded impressive.

I had A&P friends that would give me tours of the facility and used to go in there once in a while for work if they had a warranty or rental forklift . the facility is most impressive. There are some you tube videos of Deltas repair facility to give you an idea of what is in the repair centers. The industry is amazing when you look at what it takes to keep the planes in the air .

 

[Bigger John]

Question to all the aviation specialists who follow this forum. Is the 737 - Max gonna get back in the air or has their reputation been damaged beyond repair? They are still sitting all around the country, is the FAA any closer to certifying their return or will they go down in history as the albatross around Boeing's neck?

Forget 737. I wish they would make an updated 757.

 

[E365]

Forget 737. I wish they would make an updated 757.

A 757 “MAX” would be really cool to see, but I’d think it would only make sense to do a 757-300 “MAX” (new engines, maybe a new wing design, etc.).

One problem is a 757-200 doesn’t hold many more passengers than a 737-900 (about 20 more passenger) but the 757 is massively more heavy - about 32,000 lbs extra. So it cost more to produce and will never be as efficient as a 737, even with new engines.

757-200 still has a big range advantage though.

The numbers on a 757-300 would maybe start to make more sense with another 30-40 passenger on board.