5w20--Have you seen this info?

[sodak]

You've probably already seen these, but just in case you haven't, they are interesting reading on the 5w20 issue with Ford and Honda:

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/dearmfr/ccd0112.pdf

and

http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/baseoils/pdf/0201a.pdf

 

[buster]

No I havn't seen this, but it further proves it is all about fuel efficiency. I'll stick with 30wts. for now.

 

[sub_zero]

150,000 miles isn't really very far in the eyes of the consumer!

I've read the EPA letter, at least the contents of it before. The article on Ford is new and obviously a product of the statements made in the letter on what OEM's must do to assure the correct grade is used. It cannot be made more clear that the engineers are no longer making the final decision on this topic.

It's great to see how government really works. They want something done, dangle a carrot and make business responsible.

Where can I join the Sierra club and do I get a free T-shirt?

 

[labman]

I am sure most of the regulars here are in the upper fringe of the well
informed about lubrication, but that is no doubt due to posts like
yours. I am sure I am not the only one that hadn't read that before.
With Ford's poor record on fuel economy, I can see them doing
almost anything to improve it. I find Honda's statements more
believable. A truly green car not only has better mileage when it
leaves the factory, but doesn't develop into an oil burner and go to the
junkyard early. I will keep using 5W-30 in my Cavalier while waiting
to see how the Fords and Hondas do on 5W-20.

 

[sodak]

In Ford's case the CAFE motivation seems a clear part of their decision. But Honda's is less clear, unless I'm missing something (which is entirely possible!). They have no CAFE worries, so for me I haven't yet decided to ignore their recommendations. I'm skeptical, but at this point I'm willing to give it a try and see what an analysis reveals after about 3000 or so miles of M1 0w20. Tomorrow I may change my mind . . .

 

[cheetahdriver]

i would agree that honda's motivation here appears to be genuine. remember, honda is the company that made transmissions that run on 10W-40. also, my wife's insight runs on 0W-20. i do not think honda would jepordize a long history of making fine engines that typically outlast the machine they are placed in (and boy do i wish they made aircraft engines), just to get even further along on a CAFE spec that they are already way past.

plus, honda's 0W-20 appears to be something special. it is the only oil at my dealer that is still made in japan, and shipped over. i keep going to my dealer for 3500 mile oil changes because they had a promotion for lifetime oil changes when we bought the car (and boy will they regret that before it's over).

[ June 22, 2003, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: cheetahdriver ]

 

[Jay]

I had seen the first link many times but not the Chevron reprint of the "Lubes & Greases" article.

quote:

---

As Honda's Principal Chemist Jeff Jetter puts it, "We're so far ahead of the mpg curve that CAFE was not an issue. We meet EPA requirements easily. But we're a 'green' company and believe that the fuel economy improvement provided by 5w-20 is important.

"Also, our testing indicates that engine performance is generally improved with a lighter viscosity grade engine oil, resulting in reduced emissions during cold starts before the catalyst comes on line, when cars emit most of their pollutants...

"...Durability is not an issue either. If it were, we wouldn't recommend 5w-20."

---

[ June 22, 2003, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Jay ]

 

[Matt89]

Interesting that Honda is pursuing a "green" approach to coolant. My new van says I don't have to change coolant for 10 years or 120,000 miles!!!

 

[MNgopher]

I had seen the EPA link before, and nothing there strikes me as out of the ordinary. EPA is just trying to insure that if Ford and Honda want CAFE credits for using 5w20 oil, they need to prove that consumers are buying and using the oil.

The Chevron article is also very informative.

Some folks act surprised that 150,000 miles is the target for engines and durability. Not many years ago, the target for engine durability was only 100,000 miles. Also remember these targets are for essentialy about 98% of engines to make it to this mark without overhaul - not necessarily make it there and die. Many more go well beyond that!

 

[MNgopher]

Matt - you are right on! There are so many variables that can be thrown into the equation - espically how the miles are put on. I think we'd all agree an engine that gets to 150k in four or five years with lots of freeway driving has had a much easier life than the engine that takes 15 years with a lot of stop and go driving! One way or another, the automakers have to set a statisitcal limit on the "durability" of their products. Most auto consumers never keep their cars beyond a 100k anyways, except for us rententive types here obsessing about oil!

 

[sodak]

150,000 miles as a baseline target for all their engines sounds fine to me, as long as that number wasn't higher before 5w20.

On another note, it will be interesting to see what GM recommends for its V6 Saturn VUE, which now comes with the same basic 3.5L Honda V6 that's in the Odyssey, Pilot, and MDX. I'm guessing 5w30.

 

[Matt89]

MNgopher;

If what you say is true, then 150K as a baseline target is not bad. The engines that take 15 years to go this distance would be thrashed at 150K, while cars that go mainly highway miles would blow right by 150K on their way to 250.

I think people (myself included) focus too much on the number of miles, whether for oil change intervals or vehicle longevity. It's just a lot more complicated than that. Wouldn't it be nice if cars had one of those little "time/miles till you die" clocks that they used to sell as gag gifts (like to give to guys who were turning 40 or whatever).

 

[ekrampitzjr]

Matt89, you raise an interesting issue that I believe will become more important as 5W20 becomes more widely used. Why aren't hour meters used on standard cars and trucks as they are on tractors and other machinery? If you aren't familiar with them, these meters run at all times while the engine is running. They could be mounted under the hood instead of in the dashboard. Hour meters would be useful to tell whether a vehicle has done a lot of idling or has mostly highway miles, etc.

Now, I have heard that an hour meter-like function is in some newer vehicles' engine-management software. Obviously, only someone with the right equipment could access this. Anyone know anything about this?

 

[dickwells]

My 02 Silverado has an hour meter which is accessed by pressing the odo button when the ignition is shut off. Interestingly I found that my average speed for 33K miles was 43.7 miles/hr.

 

[Matt89]

quote:

---

On another note, it will be interesting to see what GM recommends for its V6 Saturn VUE, which now comes with the same basic 3.5L Honda V6 that's in the Odyssey, Pilot, and MDX. I'm guessing 5w30.

---

You bet...I'm going to check on this ASAP, since I have that engine.

Great call on Saturn's part to use that motor. As much as I want to support Detroit, Honda is tops in engines in my book.

**** - good average. Mine's probably 21.3