5w-20 oil and longevity
- Thread starter Realgun
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Well, if the same engine is using 5-30 one year (eg. Honda) and then 0-20 is OK the next w/o any engine changes, then why not use 0-20 in an LS-1 to reduce wear? (3MP???????)
In other words, if an engine is using 5-30 in N.A. and 15-40 or 20-50 in Australia then it should be OK to go the other way...ie. to a 0-20 to reduce wear. Right? The engines are no different between the 2 countries....
Again, I challenge anyone to take conventional 5-20 and a 15-40, do 10k intervals (Euro standard even before synthetics) each and do a UOA (assuming this has some indication of what's going on). None of this 3k OCI stuff...
In other words, if an engine is using 5-30 in N.A. and 15-40 or 20-50 in Australia then it should be OK to go the other way...ie. to a 0-20 to reduce wear. Right? The engines are no different between the 2 countries....
Again, I challenge anyone to take conventional 5-20 and a 15-40, do 10k intervals (Euro standard even before synthetics) each and do a UOA (assuming this has some indication of what's going on). None of this 3k OCI stuff...
Ford recomends a special 10W40 oil with E85. Last time I checked it was $7.50 a quart and the dealer does not stock it. Amazingly even though they sell thousands of these vehicles, they don't tell owners this, and even the dealer didn't know anything about it. The oil cap says "see-manual" right on it.
-T
-T
For me it is quite simple.
Honda recommends the use of 5W30 for my wife's Odyssey everywhere it is sold - except America.
Coincidentally, America is the only place where specifying a lower viscosity benefits Honda in its quest to top the fleet mileage averages (Green Marketing).
You really have to be gullible to believe those two facts aren't linked. Now Honda may, in fact, be right that the 5w20 will produce the same longevity as a 30 weight. But History already shows that 5w30 posts great longevity in Honda engines. History also shows that Honda engineers, like all humans, are not perfect and make mistakes (especially their auto transmission engineers!).
So I look at the choices:
1. 5w30
+ History shows very god longevity in Honda engines.
- Produces 0.2 lower mpg (~$85 of gas in 100k miles)
2. 5w20
+ Get 0.2 mpg better mileage.
- Unknown effect on real world longevity.
So 10 bucks a year buys me some peace of mind. That's what, three big mac meals?
Honda recommends the use of 5W30 for my wife's Odyssey everywhere it is sold - except America.
Coincidentally, America is the only place where specifying a lower viscosity benefits Honda in its quest to top the fleet mileage averages (Green Marketing).
You really have to be gullible to believe those two facts aren't linked. Now Honda may, in fact, be right that the 5w20 will produce the same longevity as a 30 weight. But History already shows that 5w30 posts great longevity in Honda engines. History also shows that Honda engineers, like all humans, are not perfect and make mistakes (especially their auto transmission engineers!).
So I look at the choices:
1. 5w30
+ History shows very god longevity in Honda engines.
- Produces 0.2 lower mpg (~$85 of gas in 100k miles)
2. 5w20
+ Get 0.2 mpg better mileage.
- Unknown effect on real world longevity.
So 10 bucks a year buys me some peace of mind. That's what, three big mac meals?
I have to laugh. Here we are
about 20 vs. 30 when most of the population can't even remember to change their oil.
Use 20 or 30, it doesn't matter. Properly maintained the engine will last the life of the car just the same.
So why not go with better fuel economy?
Use 20 or 30, it doesn't matter. Properly maintained the engine will last the life of the car just the same.
So why not go with better fuel economy?
I wonder if anyone knows how the Castrol SLX Longlife 0W-30 compares to the Made in Germany 0W-30 that sells in AutoZone. I am tempted to try the Castrol 0W-30 next it seems to have gotten raving reviews on these forums, any thoughts??
Shouldn't that be the other way round, 85% regular unleaded and 15% ethanol? I think there would be serious engine problems with an 85% ethanol mix.
Most car manufacturers over here recommend a ethanol content in fuel of no more than 10%, and I think the Govt has passed legislation limiting it to that amount.
Dave
Dave:
Nope. E85 contains 85% ethanol and 15% regular unleaded gasoline. GM has options for government fleet operators (About the only users of E85 as far as I can tell) to allow the use of E85 in the motor.
Otherwise, GM limits ethanol blends to 15% max.
To run on E85, GM has to fit a sensor in the fuel tank to detect the extra ethanol. This allows the fuel injectors, ignition system, and emissions controls to work properly.
GM also has to use fuel system components that can resist 85% ethanol content.
Jerry
Thanks for that Jerry, 85% alcohol eh, wonder how it mixes with orange juice, or maybe and "85 and Coke"
Dave
Dave
No oil consumption that I can tell using 5W-20 for 40K miles now in our Accord V6. Looking at the consistently good UOAs on 5W-20 oils, are we just struggling to acknowledge that lighter oils are better than we think they should be?
No offense, but all this evidence is anecdotal. Ford did not come out with the TSB changing the oil until what, mid 2001? For the first few years of its life at least, the engine probably ran on 30 weight. You think the mechanics changed over to 20 weight oil as soon as the TSB came out? Probably not. This also says nothing about consumption. Do you use oil in between changes?
What about sludging? would it be a concern with these lighter oils?
[ February 10, 2004, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Tones ]
"While one manufacturer's engine may require an SAE 10W-30, another manufacturer's engine may require an SAE 5W-20 viscosity grade. This is likely due to different tolerances within the engine or other engine design factors." http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/carcare/whattoknow.asp
HAHA! More than likely I'd be on the floor under the table LONG before YOU would!
Jerry
Hi Doc T:
Ethanol 85% is a blend of 85% ethanol and 15% regular unleaded. Some of that push to "green" fuels. I'm sure farmers benefit the most as they always seem to have a tough time of things and can now sell grain crops to brew up ethanol.
Ethanol is the same as the stuff we can buy at the booze store, so it supposedly isn't toxic. This is NOT to be confused with methanols (Methyl Alcohol, etc), which are almost the same chemically.
Methanol appears to be a lot more destructive to fuel system parts, and if you happen to drink the stuff, at the very least you go blind. So it's a lot more toxic.
Here in Canada, my truck seems to respond well to Mohawk / PetroCanada ethanol blends up to 15%. My MPG has either stayed the same or decreased by no more than 0.5 MPG. Oil stays cleaner for some reason.
Jerry
Hey Doc T:
If you're confused by this issue, and I'm confused by this issue, and the other oil anal-compulsives out there are confused by this issue, then how about the average motoring public??
BTW I did ask GM techline and they said in NO uncertain terms to NOT use ANY xW-20 oil in ANY LS1 or truck Vortec, a derivative of the LS1.
I too am all for a carefully controlled engine dynometer test that fully meets Chi Square and ANOVA statistical requirements.
Take identical motors, say an LS1, run one motor on Mobil 1 0W-20 and the other motor on Mobil 1 15W-50. Do equivilant 10,000 mile OCI (250 hour?), at 100% load and WOT, and stipulate like most German engine makers that NO makeup oil is allowed.
I would LOVE to see a UOA comparison from that test. I would also want to see both motors torn down and mic'd to compare actual wear on the camshafts, cylinder bore/taper, rings, etc.
Oh, Doc T, here is an interesting tidbit for you: the LS1 and the Truck Vortec both recommend a 5W-30 year round in their normal production vehicles. The same exact motor, as a "crate" motor (It goes down the same engine assembly line as the motors destined for cars and trucks)recommends a 10W-40 year round.
THis is from GMPP (General Motors Performance Parts). What do you think? Interesting, no??
Because motors are made so much better now, and even cheap Brand X oils are WAY better than oils of 5-10 years ago, I think 150,000 miles out of a motor running the cheapest oil is probably reasonable. For the average driver, that may be good enough.
Those of us who want/expect things to last forever may not be satisfied with that. I know I'm not, so I carefully adjust my viscosity to my ambient temperature.
Unlike the rest of the world, we have CAFE to deal with. This benefits the manufacturer, not us. Remember this is a FLEET AVERAGE that applies "credits" to the manufacturer to offset poorer results from gargantuan SUV's and pickup trucks.
What is the difference, maybe 0.2 MPG on a car that already gets 40 MPG? Maybe 0.02 MPG on a V10 SUV?? We wouldn't even notice that, like somebody posted maybe $10 over tens of thousands of miles.
Apply that miniscule amount over hundreds of thousands of units and the manufacturer is really ahead: the "credits" can be applied to offset the poorer results elsewhere.
Some European makers are "turning around" to lighter oils. For example, in Europe VW 506.x specifies a synthetic 0W-30 which was co-developed by Castrol: Castrol SLX LongLife II. This oil is only for certain VW/Audi engines and they warn to NOT use it in their other motors.
The oil must have a pretty beefy additive package to allow up to 24 month / 50,000km OCI. Although they don't publish MRV and Brookfield data, the pour point is -39 C. Other 0W-30's have pour points of -49 or lower.
Jerry
Hey fella's...
In about 6 months time, you'll see the whole mazda6 crew bang out alot of 10,000-15,000 mile UOA's of the 0w-20...till then, you'll just have to check these out
.
Same model/engine in all these UOA's...different drivers, different styles, different climates. Engine is a Mazda/Ford Duratec based block. Its quite a bit different from all the other 3.0 V6 Duratec's on the market, so take the word "duratec" with a grain of salt.
Almost all are modified car's, usually running Cold Air Intakes (K&N Style filter) on the 2nd UOA batches, with 10-15% ft/lbs and hp over stock equipped cars. Just putting these links here cause I feel it'll help those people "looking for evidence," as well as making it easier for me to maintain the list.
Top link is to the UOA, secondary link is to the bob's url with the analysis critque.
Mazda 6s (0w-20 Mobil1 Supersyn)
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~greghess/oilreport.pdf
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000824
Mazda 6s (0w-20 Mobil1 Supersyn)
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~greghess/2nduoa.pdf
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001100
Mazda 6s (5w-20 Castrol GTX)
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000704
Mazda 6s (5w-30 Mobil1 Supersyn)
http://gcubed.sytes.net/gcubed/scottoil.pdf
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000922
Mazda 6s (5w-30 Mobil1 SuperSyn)
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~greghess/forum/oil/5w30uoa.gif
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001252
Mazda 6s (0w-20 Mobil1 Supersyn)
http://www.mazda6tech.com/gcubed/scott2uoa.pdf
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001245
Mazda 6s (0w-30 German Castrol Syntec)
http://home.comcast.net/~paulleung/C10874.pdf
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001234
Mazda 6s (5w-20 Motorcraft Factory Fill)
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~greghess/stockfill.gif
]http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001237
Enjoy!
In about 6 months time, you'll see the whole mazda6 crew bang out alot of 10,000-15,000 mile UOA's of the 0w-20...till then, you'll just have to check these out
Same model/engine in all these UOA's...different drivers, different styles, different climates. Engine is a Mazda/Ford Duratec based block. Its quite a bit different from all the other 3.0 V6 Duratec's on the market, so take the word "duratec" with a grain of salt.
Almost all are modified car's, usually running Cold Air Intakes (K&N Style filter) on the 2nd UOA batches, with 10-15% ft/lbs and hp over stock equipped cars. Just putting these links here cause I feel it'll help those people "looking for evidence," as well as making it easier for me to maintain the list.
Top link is to the UOA, secondary link is to the bob's url with the analysis critque.
Mazda 6s (0w-20 Mobil1 Supersyn)
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~greghess/oilreport.pdf
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000824
Mazda 6s (0w-20 Mobil1 Supersyn)
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~greghess/2nduoa.pdf
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001100
Mazda 6s (5w-20 Castrol GTX)
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000704
Mazda 6s (5w-30 Mobil1 Supersyn)
http://gcubed.sytes.net/gcubed/scottoil.pdf
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000922
Mazda 6s (5w-30 Mobil1 SuperSyn)
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~greghess/forum/oil/5w30uoa.gif
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001252
Mazda 6s (0w-20 Mobil1 Supersyn)
http://www.mazda6tech.com/gcubed/scott2uoa.pdf
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001245
Mazda 6s (0w-30 German Castrol Syntec)
http://home.comcast.net/~paulleung/C10874.pdf
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001234
Mazda 6s (5w-20 Motorcraft Factory Fill)
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~greghess/stockfill.gif
]http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001237
Enjoy!
Mikep,
Ya everyone loves the car pretty much...but then were all mazda6 owners, so well, were all very biased
.
Local group of 10-15 of us go autocrossing on weekends, and some guys are heading to VIR and summit point for some track time. I'll see if I can get an actual track UOA of some 0w-20, instead of just autocrossing miles.
I figure by this summer, we'll have over 20 UOA's, all on the same engine, with pretty much every major synthetic on the market...got amsoil, redline, and royal purple ones coming up soon
.
The bob's UOA addiction spreads like wildfire.
Ya everyone loves the car pretty much...but then were all mazda6 owners, so well, were all very biased
Local group of 10-15 of us go autocrossing on weekends, and some guys are heading to VIR and summit point for some track time. I'll see if I can get an actual track UOA of some 0w-20, instead of just autocrossing miles.
I figure by this summer, we'll have over 20 UOA's, all on the same engine, with pretty much every major synthetic on the market...got amsoil, redline, and royal purple ones coming up soon
The bob's UOA addiction spreads like wildfire.
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