5W-20 in 5W-30 applications

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Not very many people would have much to say if the criteria for being able to talk about something was that they had actually done the thing they were talking about. There aren't too many people that have actually beat the tar out of several engines using the different oils in question and then tearing them apart to mic the moving parts and report the findings. All the rest of us just talk about what those people do. Our biggest problem is that it can be hard to acquire the findings of those people that do that with the oils we want to know about. Again, we do what we can.

To make you more than an armchair quarterback you would have to have done more than watch two engines expire while finding no heads-up w/UOAs. Please explain in excruciating detail how watching two engines die makes you an expert on the differing wear in passenger car engines using 20w vs 30w. What oils and what form of death? Was it relevant to the point at hand? How did each die so that the UOA became pointless? Perhaps all of our UOAs are pointless and we're all wasting our money. Perhaps not.

I am not negating the tests the guy was a part of, but "it's a secret and I can't tell you the details" is hardly an unreproachable recommendation of his opinion. The degree to which his opinion is relevant to our type of use, then, is also a secret. How much difference was he alluding to? Was it statistically significant? Statistically significant to automotive companies spending millions on research or to guys that argue over M1 iron being 10-20ppm higher than PP?
 
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Originally Posted By: Mr_Incredible
Not very many people would have much to say if the criteria for being able to talk about something was that they had actually done the thing they were talking about. There aren't too many people that have actually beat the tar out of several engines using the different oils in question and then tearing them apart to mic the moving parts and report the findings. All the rest of us just talk about what those people do. Our biggest problem is that it can be hard to acquire the findings of those people that do that with the oils we want to know about. Again, we do what we can.

To make you more than an armchair quarterback you would have to have done more than watch two engines expire while finding no heads-up w/UOAs. Please explain in excruciating detail how watching two engines die makes you an expert on the differing wear in passenger car engines using 20w vs 30w. What oils and what form of death? Was it relevant to the point at hand? How did each die so that the UOA became pointless? Perhaps all of our UOAs are pointless and we're all wasting our money. Perhaps not.

I am not negating the tests the guy was a part of, but "it's a secret and I can't tell you the details" is hardly an unreproachable recommendation of his opinion. The degree to which his opinion is relevant to our type of use, then, is also a secret. How much difference was he alluding to? Was it statistically significant? Statistically significant to automotive companies spending millions on research or to guys that argue over M1 iron being 10-20ppm higher than PP?


Because in teardowns the engines were extraordiarily worn and every UOA said they were fine! What more can you possibly want?

I put a lot more weight on that than a bunch of people talking about a few ppm or iron in a UOA which is a waste of everyone's time and bandwidth.
 
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What I don't get here is how you guy seem to think that durability testing is invalid or somehow doesn't apply to a normally driven car. If it holds up better in harsh conditions, it will trickle down to normal use. It's not like the engine only wears when you beat on it but ceases wearing when you drive it nice.


I don't believe this to be the case at all. A Corvette is surely validated on 5w-30 M1 (isn't that the visc?). Why not a 5w or 0w-40? Surely if visc is the panacea that you're suggesting, would it not serve this high performance engine ..just like it does the Euro's? Oh
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..that's right. Those Euro's usually have bigger sumps and stretch out OCI's way longer than us domestic dullards ..so I guess it comes down to a sensible duration of usage that is factored for the wimpy low viscosity oil used in a Vette.

Sorta like how the modular engines and many others only spec 5k OCI's for use with 5w-20....
 
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Because in teardowns the engines were extraordiarily worn and every UOA said they were fine!


In 15k miles? With absolutely normal UOA and no other indicators?

Define extraordinarily worn. What parts. What wear patterns. Explain how/why that mode of death was not picked up in UOA. What engine? Any others like it? Class action suits? What user actions had any affect on this extraordinary wear? Explain for each engine. Explain why/how your experience negates all UOAs. Explain how UOAs with 400% difference between oils means nothing (discounting ppm's that are within acceptible range).
 
The Ford guy that is mentioned in this post. Is he still working for Ford? Was he booted, retired, quit, still employed? Just wondering. On occasion "former employees" have a hidden agenda, here the buzz word is "secret".

Just curious.................. I heard he left Ford an unhappy camper, but I want to be certain this isn't some Internet myth.

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Former Employees are subject to opinion and conjecture. All Data collected while an employee belongs to the employer. SOur Grapes is often the case.
 
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
He is no longer at Ford, and I have heard nothing regarding him leaving the company on bad terms. Even if he did (a mighty big "if"), how is his recommendation against 5W-20 in any way related to that.

Here's his resume: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/scott-whitehead/a/a65/943





Depends on how he left. I know many people who left companies unhappy and started [censored] after they were gone, especially in programs they worked on. It happens all the time. I asked a question to be certain of the terms in which he left, since I heard he was not happy with Ford when he left. The Internet can be a funny place, and rumors can start very easily.

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Once again, how would any potential "sour grapes" lead him to recommend against 20 weight oils?

How does this hurt Ford? How does this benefit him?

I've heard nothing about this guy leaving the company on bad terms except on this board.

In fact, he has posts on corner carvers, made after his time at Ford, in which he defends the company. He was quick to point out that it was Navistar that was screwing over Ford in their relationship and he has defended the Modular from some of the mouth breathers over there. Pretty odd behavior from a disgruntled ex-Ford employee, don't you think?
 
Because that man has unique experiences regarding the testing and teardown of these engines using the oils in question. It's cool there are 200,000+ mile Modulars running 5W-20, really, but its cooler there are 1.1 million mile Modulars that have run 30 weights.

How many Ford Motor Company Engine Systems/Development Engineers do we have on this board? Do you really want to discredit his extremely valid experiences simply because they do not support the "concensus" on this board?
 
OK so we've ruled out a PO'ed employee. Seems Ford is pretty confident in the 5W20 oil, confident enough that what he had to say about it didn't mean much to them. I've read a lot of reports and tests conducted on the 20 grade oils to be confident enough to use them in an engine that is spec'd for it. YMMV


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How many Ford Motor Company Engine Systems/Development Engineers do we have on this board?


None. We did have a GM testing tech.


Why don't you invite the esteemed former engineer to join our fine crowd here to answer the tough questions?
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
None. We did have a GM testing tech.


GM still recommends 5W-30 for the most part.

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Why don't you invite the esteemed former engineer to join our fine crowd here to answer the tough questions?


He stated that he signed a confidentiality agreement when he joined Ford and another when he left. I'm not sure how much this would accomplish.
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Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
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How many Ford Motor Company Engine Systems/Development Engineers do we have on this board?


None. We did have a GM testing tech.


Why don't you invite the esteemed former engineer to join our fine crowd here to answer the tough questions?


Good idea! I can't see how Ford would ignore the man if his opinions had real merit. But then again who knows?
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I've read their reports about the MC 5W20 oil and its benefits in engines spec'd for it, seems like a fine oil that works very well. I can also see where it might not be the best oil for HP race applications, but again in engines spec'd for it I think the 20 grade oils are fine.
 
Sure they do ..and recommended shearing 5w-30 for decades. They also ran endurance and abuse tests on many engines.

Are we still attempting to PROVE that 5w-20 wears out engines? Sure, if you're someone who flogs the things to the nth degree.

And if I run you over repeatedly with a one ton weight ..you'll die. I assure you. Statistically speaking more people die from one ton weights rolling over them than die from 100lb weights rolling over them. Living proof that one ton kills.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Are we still attempting to PROVE that 5w-20 wears out engines?


I suspect they lessen engine life to some degree, but with most modern engines being designed with 300,000-400,000 mile part life (150,000 mile worst case scenario) I don't think too any people care.
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