5W-20 in 5W-30 applications

Pennzoil motor oil
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Originally Posted By: sayjac
Show me, as in my previous thread, where after almost ten years of use, where 5w20 has been spec'd by Honda and Ford, that there has been increased engine wear, or increased engine failure rate over engines using 5w30.


Perhaps you haven't been paying attention?
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Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
It depends on the application. Most typical (low horsepower) daily drivers that spend their time loping along the interstate won't even stress a 20-weight.

20-weight is just fine for most cars, but not everybody drives most cars.


Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: MarkC
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: MarkC
And having a lot of customers complaining about their engines wearing out wouldn't .


They don't recommend 5W-20 in their higher performance engines.



Examples of which would be?


Honda's S2000, SI

Ford's Termi motors, the GT

Basically any high output engine is spec'd for a heavier oil. Must be coincidence.
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Now let me pose a question to you, show me tear down results that show 20-weight don't increase wear.
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We have Scott Whitehead who said he saw increased wear with 20-weight oils via teardowns during OEM durability testing, I don't know of any OEM employees that have claimed the opposite. What about you?
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Originally Posted By: sayjac
Show me, as in my previous thread, where after almost ten years of use, where 5w20 has been spec'd by Honda and Ford, that there has been increased engine wear, or increased engine failure rate over engines using 5w30.

In this thread none could be produced.
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Here ya go. But a factory engineer can't possibly know more than BITOGers. Pick away.

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36607
 
No, no. Don't change my question. That isn't what I asked. I will stick with my thread. No anecdotal rhetoric, not interested in an isolated anecdote, or anecdotal statements from skeptics.

Since Honda and Ford have spec'd 5w20 is there any empirical evidence proving the 5w20 has not performed as well 5w30. So far the answer is still no.

If your one person (anecdotal rhetoric) counts, than surely AE Haas' LV taxi study of 20 weight oils should count. If not, neither should count.

The answer to my question(s) remains no.

Use what you want, 5w20 has worked for me, and I'm sticking with it.
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Originally Posted By: KW
Going from 15W40 to 5W30 caused rod bearings to spin in my alky motor.


Yes, but they will dismiss it as a "race engine" since it doesn't follow the laws of physics like street engines do. Even my GN which uses mostly stock parts with stockish clearances doesn't count because it makes a few more hp than stock.
 
Originally Posted By: sayjac
No, no. Don't change my question. That isn't what I asked. I will stick with my thread. No anecdotal rhetoric, not interested in an isolated anecdote, or anecdotal statements from skeptics.


Your question is irrelevant because it doesn't pertain to what has been said in this thread.

How does a taxi study comparing 0W-20 and 5W-20 oils bear any relevance to a thread comparing 5W-20 and 5w30 oils? Scott Whitehead's statements; OTOH, do have relevance here.
 
ledslinger,

I believe the difference between the two is very slight so it may not be cost effective for the car manufacturers to change everything over.

I admit I want to try some 20W in my 01' Durango V-8 cuz gas is going up fast here in Los Angeles and every penny saved from my engine is a welcome too me.

Durango
 
Originally Posted By: sayjac
No, no. Don't change my question. That isn't what I asked. I will stick with my thread. No anecdotal rhetoric, not interested in an isolated anecdote, or anecdotal statements from skeptics.

Since Honda and Ford have spec'd 5w20 is there any empirical evidence proving the 5w20 has not performed as well 5w30. So far the answer is still no.

If your one person (anecdotal rhetoric) counts, than surely AE Haas' LV taxi study of 20 weight oils should count. If not, neither should count.

The answer to my question(s) remains no.

Use what you want, 5w20 has worked for me, and I'm sticking with it.
cheers3.gif



Uh, did you not see my post? A Ford engineer stating that engines run on the dyno under identical conditions, some with a 20wt and some with a heavier weight and then torn down and laid next to one another with the heavy oil showing less wear is not enough for you?

This blows away Dr Haas' "Vegas Taxi" stuff.

Saying you don't see junkyards full of dead 20wt cars means nothing. Until you go in there with a micrometer you don't know if 20wt causes more wear or not. Here's a revelation, EVERY car ends up at the junkyard so the argument makes no sense.
 
Honestly, I don't know if a 5-20 would cause more wear than a 5-30. That being said, Honda/Ford/Toyota are no dummies when it comes to engines. Engineers know what they are doing, and if they know a 5-20 oil will cause a tad more wear but increase fuel economy all while having the engine last to a ripe old age, they will go with the lighter oil.
 
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Just for sake of argument, I think most manufacturers consider 150K a 'lifetime' for an engine (if any longer, they wouldn't be in business, as no one would need to buy a new car). Taking that into account, IF, and I say IF, a 20w oil caused more wear than a 30w, I don't think it would be more than negligible over that lifetime of an engine. I think IF the 20W's did cause more wear, the manufacturers would consider that acceptable, as the engine would still have provided the maximum designed life, anything over 150K would be just icing on the cake so to speak.
 
Originally Posted By: Tim H.
Just for sake of argument, I think most manufacturers consider 150K a 'lifetime' for an engine (if any longer, they wouldn't be in business, as no one would need to buy a new car). Taking that into account, IF, and I say IF, a 20w oil caused more wear than a 30w, I don't think it would be more than negligible over that lifetime of an engine. I think IF the 20W's did cause more wear, the manufacturers would consider that acceptable, as the engine would still have provided the maximum designed life, anything over 150K would be just icing on the cake so to speak.


In which case we would still want an oil that protects better.
 
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: sayjac
No, no. Don't change my question. That isn't what I asked. I will stick with my thread. No anecdotal rhetoric, not interested in an isolated anecdote, or anecdotal statements from skeptics.

Since Honda and Ford have spec'd 5w20 is there any empirical evidence proving the 5w20 has not performed as well 5w30. So far the answer is still no.

If your one person (anecdotal rhetoric) counts, than surely AE Haas' LV taxi study of 20 weight oils should count. If not, neither should count.

The answer to my question(s) remains no.

Use what you want, 5w20 has worked for me, and I'm sticking with it.
cheers3.gif



Uh, did you not see my post? A Ford engineer stating that engines run on the dyno under identical conditions, some with a 20wt and some with a heavier weight and then torn down and laid next to one another with the heavy oil showing less wear is not enough for you?

This blows away Dr Haas' "Vegas Taxi" stuff.

Saying you don't see junkyards full of dead 20wt cars means nothing. Until you go in there with a micrometer you don't know if 20wt causes more wear or not. Here's a revelation, EVERY car ends up at the junkyard so the argument makes no sense.


Did you post a link to a paper or some chart or graph or other data with the source?
 
Originally Posted By: MarkC
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: sayjac
No, no. Don't change my question. That isn't what I asked. I will stick with my thread. No anecdotal rhetoric, not interested in an isolated anecdote, or anecdotal statements from skeptics.

Since Honda and Ford have spec'd 5w20 is there any empirical evidence proving the 5w20 has not performed as well 5w30. So far the answer is still no.

If your one person (anecdotal rhetoric) counts, than surely AE Haas' LV taxi study of 20 weight oils should count. If not, neither should count.

The answer to my question(s) remains no.

Use what you want, 5w20 has worked for me, and I'm sticking with it.
cheers3.gif



Uh, did you not see my post? A Ford engineer stating that engines run on the dyno under identical conditions, some with a 20wt and some with a heavier weight and then torn down and laid next to one another with the heavy oil showing less wear is not enough for you?

This blows away Dr Haas' "Vegas Taxi" stuff.

Saying you don't see junkyards full of dead 20wt cars means nothing. Until you go in there with a micrometer you don't know if 20wt causes more wear or not. Here's a revelation, EVERY car ends up at the junkyard so the argument makes no sense.


Did you post a link to a paper or some chart or graph or other data with the source?


It's a few posts above with "corner carvers" in the title. Good reading. Once you follow the link, make sure you read all 3 pages where it actually states the dyno info.
 
Read it. Particularly liked the "I cannot go into details here" part. The only dyno data I saw didn't seem to point to anything bad going on unless I missed something. I assume you read this:
"The engine tear down report includes:
Good cylinder crosshatch honing retention.
No issues with main and connecting rod bearings.
Excellent sludge and varnish control.
Excellent engine wear protection, well within expected tolerances.
Overall the engines were in excellent shape. (Continued service was possible despite worst case conditions)."

But seemed to ignore it?
 
Originally Posted By: MarkC
Read it. Particularly liked the "I cannot go into details here" part. The only dyno data I saw didn't seem to point to anything bad going on unless I missed something. I assume you read this:
"The engine tear down report includes:
Good cylinder crosshatch honing retention.
No issues with main and connecting rod bearings.
Excellent sludge and varnish control.
Excellent engine wear protection, well within expected tolerances.
Overall the engines were in excellent shape. (Continued service was possible despite worst case conditions)."

But seemed to ignore it?


That's all you got from it?!?!?......

We will start with the guy behind it all:
"I'm assuming you're not referring to my comments, or don't know my background? Are you aware that I spent about 10 years doing engine development with Ford Motor Company, including being the systems engineer on the 2003 Aviator and 2005 Mustang V8s?"

Now this:
"I think you'll understand that I can go into details here. And understand that I'm not saying that 5W-20 is not going to instantly do damage. But suffice it to say I've seen and been involved in a LOT of development on these motors, and my personal opinion is that I would never run 5W-20 in a modular motor. Regarding your "spec oil" comment, you need to look at what else governs this recommendation."

And this:
"Yes. I would not run 5W-20 in ANY stock mod motor. This is especially true in 4v motors, but applies to all of them in one form or another."

This:
"Because I've seen the dyno testing. I've probably looked at several hundred engines disassembled and spread out on inspection tables. And I've been involved in testing to resolve issues where varying the oil viscosity was part of the test DOE. Trading a very small FE improvement in exchange for a large durability safety margin is not something I'm interested in doing."

What would FORD ENGINEER recommend?:
"My *PERSONAL RECOMMENDATION* would be to run a good fresh synthetic in the 5w30 to 10W-40 range. And keep an eye on oil temps and oil pressure variations. The oil viscosity might slightly change the VCT's transient behaviors, but I wouldn't expect significant issues. I admit that I've never tested or seen testing relating to oils thicker than 10W-40, so I can't comment on that."

Since this is spelled out very plainly, I expect his credibility to be attacked first. We always say "what would the engineers recommend", well here you have it.
 
you could just use chevron supreme 5w30 or castrol edge 5w30 and split the differance between 5w20 and 5w30. Both are thin 5w30's and could be classified as 5w25 if there was such a designation.
 
I saw:

Originally Posted By: swhiteh3
I'm not going into details here, but I know I've talked to several people on this list before about this. Please do not put 5w-20 or less into a mod motor. Please.

That is all....


Originally Posted By: swhiteh3

Gary-
I'm assuming you're not referring to my comments, or don't know my background? Are you aware that I spent about 10 years doing engine development with Ford Motor Company, including being the systems engineer on the 2003 Aviator and 2005 Mustang V8s?

Quote Originally Posted by Chim-Chim:
"Would you recommend 5w30, then? I have been running the Motorcraft 5W-20 synthetic blend."

5w30 is probably a good oil for the street with mixed temperatures, yes.

Quote Originally Posted by GT4Point6:
"?? Not sure what your saying. Are you saying to not run 5w-20 in the mod motors? I wouldn't run it any thinner but 5W20 is the spec oil from most Ford engines since 2001. If there is somehting wrong with it, I'm sure we would see a lot of people with motor problems. Mustangs, CVs, F150, F250-550 and what ever else the put the mod motors in and I'm just not seeing that on the Mustang and Truck forums."

I think you'll understand that I can go into details here. And understand that I'm not saying that 5W-20 is not going to instantly do damage. But suffice it to say I've seen and been involved in a LOT of development on these motors, and my personal opinion is that I would never run 5W-20 in a modular motor. Regarding your "spec oil" comment, you need to look at what else governs this recommendation.

I apologize for not being a little more clear and forthcoming.


Originally Posted By: swhiteh3

Originally Posted by Steve Bassen:
"Scott, does your 5W30 recommendation carry over to 5.4L 3V motors?"

Yes. I would not run 5W-20 in ANY stock mod motor. This is especially true in 4V motors, but applies to all of them in one form or another.

Quote Originally Posted by Houstonnw:
"I'm guessing that you meant to write 'I cannot go into details here'."

You are correct. Sorry for the typo. Sometimes I think faster than I type.

Quote Originally Posted by Houstonnw:
"Steve Bassen asked about the 5.4L 3V motors and I'm interested in the 4.6L 3V motors. I understand that the variable valve timing is based on the engine tolerances and I would assume, the oil viscosity.

So if you were taking a 3V Mustang to track days, what oil would you use?"

My *PERSONAL RECOMMENDATION* would be to run a good fresh synthetic in the 5w30 to 10W-40 range. And keep an eye on oil temps and oil pressure variations. The oil viscosity might slightly change the VCT's transient behaviors, but I wouldn't expect significant issues. I admit that I've never tested or seen testing relating to oils thicker than 10W-40, so I can't comment on that.

Quote Originally Posted by dbower:
"Scott: I would be very interested in why you think 5w-20 is a bit too thin for heavy use."

Because I've seen the dyno testing. I've probably looked at several hundred engines disassembled and spread out on inspection tables. And I've been involved in testing to resolve issues where varying the oil viscosity was part of the test DOE. Trading a very small FE improvement in exchange for a large durability safety margin is not something I'm interested in doing.


I wonder why his recommendation against 5W-20 especially emphasizes the 4V motors, could it be because of the power level? The same reason Ford specs 5W-50 for the Ford GT and Shelby GT500?
shocked2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: MarkC
Read it. Particularly liked the "I cannot go into details here" part. The only dyno data I saw didn't seem to point to anything bad going on unless I missed something. I assume you read this:
"The engine tear down report includes:
Good cylinder crosshatch honing retention.
No issues with main and connecting rod bearings.
Excellent sludge and varnish control.
Excellent engine wear protection, well within expected tolerances.
Overall the engines were in excellent shape. (Continued service was possible despite worst case conditions)."

But seemed to ignore it?


That's all you got from it?!?!?......

We will start with the guy behind it all:
"I'm assuming you're not referring to my comments, or don't know my background? Are you aware that I spent about 10 years doing engine development with Ford Motor Company, including being the systems engineer on the 2003 Aviator and 2005 Mustang V8s?"

Now this:
"I think you'll understand that I can go into details here. And understand that I'm not saying that 5W-20 is not going to instantly do damage. But suffice it to say I've seen and been involved in a LOT of development on these motors, and my personal opinion is that I would never run 5W-20 in a modular motor. Regarding your "spec oil" comment, you need to look at what else governs this recommendation."

And this:
"Yes. I would not run 5W-20 in ANY stock mod motor. This is especially true in 4v motors, but applies to all of them in one form or another."

This:
"Because I've seen the dyno testing. I've probably looked at several hundred engines disassembled and spread out on inspection tables. And I've been involved in testing to resolve issues where varying the oil viscosity was part of the test DOE. Trading a very small FE improvement in exchange for a large durability safety margin is not something I'm interested in doing."

What would FORD ENGINEER recommend?:
"My *PERSONAL RECOMMENDATION* would be to run a good fresh synthetic in the 5w30 to 10W-40 range. And keep an eye on oil temps and oil pressure variations. The oil viscosity might slightly change the VCT's transient behaviors, but I wouldn't expect significant issues. I admit that I've never tested or seen testing relating to oils thicker than 10W-40, so I can't comment on that."

Since this is spelled out very plainly, I expect his credibility to be attacked first. We always say "what would the engineers recommend", well here you have it.



Dang, you beat me to it.
thumbsup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: renos09ram
I have a Dodge Ram Hemi, would you recommend using 5w30 vs 5w20?


I'd stick with what the fill cap and owners manual suggest.

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