5,000 mile 3MP results.
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It's at 12.3 ....getting close to a 40wt . It will be a 40wt in no more than another 1500 miles I predict .
Patman
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I don't think he plans on stopping the test if it becomes 40wt, since that wouldn't be fair since the oil isn't far off a 40wt to begin with.
The metals on the 4k test now look like they were higher than they should've been, since the 5k run shows lower lead and iron didn't change. The 6k test will tell the tale, since we'll then be able to see which of the last two were more accurate. If the 5k test proves to be the more accurate of the two, then it shows major promise for Amsoil, just when I was getting disappointed in it's performance in this test. Look at how Amsoil and M1 compare at this stage of the game:
The metals on the 4k test now look like they were higher than they should've been, since the 5k run shows lower lead and iron didn't change. The 6k test will tell the tale, since we'll then be able to see which of the last two were more accurate. If the 5k test proves to be the more accurate of the two, then it shows major promise for Amsoil, just when I was getting disappointed in it's performance in this test. Look at how Amsoil and M1 compare at this stage of the game:
I believe that the Amsoil TBN (out of the bottle VOA) is still around 11 or so with Blackstones newer method. What bothers me is that it has dropped to well under 50% of its value in 5000 miles. This just seems to be a consistent pattern with the Amsoil a huge initial drop in TBN. Now, will it remain at 3.6 for a while or continue on down, hopefully not as fast.
I'd normally use a viscosity increase of 25% in an extended drain situation. That takes you from a "thick" 30wt to a mid range 40wt, which is perfectly acceptable.
The oil will remain a 5wt at low temps,so it'll turn into a 5w-40 ....
These Amsoil formulations are blended thick to meet ACEA A3/B4 specs. The 5w-30/10w-30 are borderline xw-30/xw-40 lubes to begin with. The S2000, 0w-30 is formulated thinner @ 11 Cst, to allow for longer drains while staying in grade.
I could formulate a 5w-30 @ 9.3 Cst and it would NEVER thicken out of grade, at least for a long, long time. Of course engine protection and oil consumption would be pretty horrible ...
Wear rates with Amsoil are already significantly lower across the board.... It's the combination of a slightly thicker oil, 3.5 Cp vs 3.1 Cp, combined with a more robust - and expensive - additive chemistry. Lubrizol will tell the most expensive additive packages they make are ones they've supplied to Amsoil for twenty five years ....
Tooslick
The oil will remain a 5wt at low temps,so it'll turn into a 5w-40 ....
These Amsoil formulations are blended thick to meet ACEA A3/B4 specs. The 5w-30/10w-30 are borderline xw-30/xw-40 lubes to begin with. The S2000, 0w-30 is formulated thinner @ 11 Cst, to allow for longer drains while staying in grade.
I could formulate a 5w-30 @ 9.3 Cst and it would NEVER thicken out of grade, at least for a long, long time. Of course engine protection and oil consumption would be pretty horrible ...
Wear rates with Amsoil are already significantly lower across the board.... It's the combination of a slightly thicker oil, 3.5 Cp vs 3.1 Cp, combined with a more robust - and expensive - additive chemistry. Lubrizol will tell the most expensive additive packages they make are ones they've supplied to Amsoil for twenty five years ....
Tooslick
Jae - moving one SAE range doesn't not disqualify any oil in any ASTM test. TS nailed it. An oil company could make an oil that is .000001 from the edge....
Spector, don't forget that Mobil1 went from a 15.5 to a 6 for the TBN at this point. Also, the Mobil1 18k mile results show a 3.3 TBN to be equal to 6.5 with the old method. I think Amsoil is holding the TBN quite well as compared to Mobil1. I would also like to add that Amsoil and Mobil1 are neck and neck with make up oil at this point. I think it may be possible that the 4k results may have become contaminated.
3MP states on his site that the LS1 likes lower viscosity oil - I think the lead numbers show different.
3MP states on his site that the LS1 likes lower viscosity oil - I think the lead numbers show different.
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I am glad that TBN hasn't dropped again. There is no argueing the fact that the wear metals are considerably better with the AMS. I won't quibble over a few PPM's but jeez, AMS is bettering M1 by half in some cases.
Does it hurt anything if the oil thickens?
Does it hurt anything if the oil thickens?
This is a good showing for Amsoil. Iron is 50% lower so far. TBN could start to go up as more make up oil is added. Still a long way to go before anyone can determine which is the better of the two. I'd love to see M1 0w-40 in this test.
[ March 13, 2004, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: buster ]
[ March 13, 2004, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: buster ]
I should clarify, when I say it likes lower viscosity better, I'm strictly speaking in a "feel" sense here -- engine is notably rougher with higher viscosity oil. Saw the same thing in my '98 LS1 as well. They sure like their thin oil.
There's no doubt, the gap in wear numers has increased substantially with this sample. Once we get some more miles on it, I'm going to do some stats tests to see if the change is what they call "statistically significant".
Cheers, 3MP
There's no doubt, the gap in wear numers has increased substantially with this sample. Once we get some more miles on it, I'm going to do some stats tests to see if the change is what they call "statistically significant".
Cheers, 3MP
MolaKule
Staff member
3MP,
Keep up the good work and this very interesting study.
Keep up the good work and this very interesting study.
Hi,
I agree with Molakule - keep it going it is a great project!!
One thing though - on M1 this vehicle was going through its initial bedding-in phase. And it probably still is but to a continually lessor degree!
The falling ppms certainly are and in a significant part due to this. This may be so for another 30k or more.
Refer my Porsche's UOA post to see a stabilised but similar situation with two different viscosity oils
Stick with an objective and interesting project but I am sure your original degradation limits will be remembered. I think they included a 20% variance to VOA viscosity
Regards
I agree with Molakule - keep it going it is a great project!!
One thing though - on M1 this vehicle was going through its initial bedding-in phase. And it probably still is but to a continually lessor degree!
The falling ppms certainly are and in a significant part due to this. This may be so for another 30k or more.
Refer my Porsche's UOA post to see a stabilised but similar situation with two different viscosity oils
Stick with an objective and interesting project but I am sure your original degradation limits will be remembered. I think they included a 20% variance to VOA viscosity
Regards
Patman
Staff member
It has always been my belief that the LS1 prefers an oil which is in between about 12 to 13 cst at 100c, and this test seems to be proving it here.
Doug makes a good observation and that is that "bedding in" or "break in" is a factor and still taking place, especially with a GM LS1 engine!
Buster; total lube package is the key not just the ZDDP package. Same reason Schaeffers builds a fine motor oil out of not so high of treat rates of adds or particularily exotic base oils.
If I could provide affordable analysis for you guys that would diagram the total chemistry of a lube it would be very instructive when overlayed with the skeleton of the 60 year old technology, spectros we look at here.
Sadly I can't .......yet, but I'm working on providing that.
Buster; total lube package is the key not just the ZDDP package. Same reason Schaeffers builds a fine motor oil out of not so high of treat rates of adds or particularily exotic base oils.
If I could provide affordable analysis for you guys that would diagram the total chemistry of a lube it would be very instructive when overlayed with the skeleton of the 60 year old technology, spectros we look at here.
Sadly I can't .......yet, but I'm working on providing that.
Good point, particularly since the SAE designations are somewhat arbitrary and the thinnest 30 weight is virtually a 20 weight while the thickest 30 weight is virtually a 40 weight.
M1 in his test at 0, 5000, 18,000 miles went from 60.3 to 58.5 to 64.1 SUS. A decrease of 3% at 5,000 miles and an increase of 4% in 18,000 miles. Almost insignificant.
The Amsoil increased from 66.2 to 67.6 in 5,000 miles. An increase of 2%.
All those changes are insignificant.
3MP is doing an outstanding job on his tests, but his viscosity graph makes it look like there is something significant happening viscosity. You have to look at the numbers to see that there isn't, except the indication of a mild trend.
Then on the M1, the trend wasn't consistant.
[ March 13, 2004, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: XS650 ]
Patman
Staff member
One of the reasons I point to viscosity though is because one of the better LS1 reports I've seen was with 10w40 GTX, which isn't really radical at all in terms of it's chemistry, but it's viscosity begin around 14 and finished up around 12 on that UOA. And the guy drove it pretty hard too. So the LS1 seems to respond nicely to oils in that range, regardless of how "radical" their chemistry is. Of course that report could just be a fluke, but general trends have shown me the LS1 doesn't usually do well on the 10cst oils.
For this LS-1 application, my recommendations would be:
For the best performance/fuel efficiency, run the S2000, 0w-30 - but don't exceed 12k-15k drains due to fuel contamination.
For the longest drains - say up to 20k with a filter change halfway through, run the S3000, 5w-30
For drains of 7.5k to 12k, run the regular Amsoil, 5w-30/10w-30
When you have over 150k on the motor, run this new 5w-40 "Euro" oil to get more oil film thickness ....
Tooslick
For the best performance/fuel efficiency, run the S2000, 0w-30 - but don't exceed 12k-15k drains due to fuel contamination.
For the longest drains - say up to 20k with a filter change halfway through, run the S3000, 5w-30
For drains of 7.5k to 12k, run the regular Amsoil, 5w-30/10w-30
When you have over 150k on the motor, run this new 5w-40 "Euro" oil to get more oil film thickness ....
Tooslick
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