3.4 fourrunner sludged and smoking, now whats(includes pics)
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That picture is clearly maintenance neglect!
What I see from that sludge is "severe service" on dino with 5000 miles changes that is a recipe for disaster!
That oil has been cooked too many times.
Hard lesson learned!
Daily Drives
-2003 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner XtraCab, Impulse Red, Peppy 2.7 Liter 4 Banger, Running Mobil1 Synthetics SS 5W-30.
ODO 3400 Miles.
-1995 Toyota 4-Runner, Evergreen, 3.0 V6, Running Mobil1 Synthetic SS 10W-30.
ODO 76000 Miles
What I see from that sludge is "severe service" on dino with 5000 miles changes that is a recipe for disaster!
Hard lesson learned!
Daily Drives
-2003 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner XtraCab, Impulse Red, Peppy 2.7 Liter 4 Banger, Running Mobil1 Synthetics SS 5W-30.
ODO 3400 Miles.
-1995 Toyota 4-Runner, Evergreen, 3.0 V6, Running Mobil1 Synthetic SS 10W-30.
ODO 76000 Miles
I'd follow terry's advice. Considering the cost of new engines or rebuilding this one I think spending $100-$150 over the next couple months would be a VERY attractive route to take at this point in time.
Please, Please hang onto to these pictures (maybe take some more high quality ones) And after terry's treatment regime take some more. I'd LOVE to see before and after pictures!
Please, Please hang onto to these pictures (maybe take some more high quality ones) And after terry's treatment regime take some more. I'd LOVE to see before and after pictures!
You definately have other issues like coolant in the oil as other have said. The way I see it, the engine is toast. Personally, before running any engine cleaner, I would clean the top end as best you can with some brake cleaner, drop the oil pan and spray the crap out of the lower end of the motor and pan and clean out the oil pickup screen. Before you close up the valve cover and oil pan, coat the cams and crank with some motor oil to prevent the raw start up after using a harsh spray cleaner. After running a couple of engine cleaner treatments, drop the pan again and replace the oil pump and pickup. It's a Toyota, they're tough.
Does anyone here actually think that the cause of that particlularly thick sludge is the use of pennzoil? I still hear more people on the internet and just in general, rip pennzoil because it creates sludge.
MolaKule
Staff member
"Does anyone here actually think that the cause of that particlularly thick sludge is the use of pennzoil? I still hear more people on the internet and just in general, rip pennzoil because it creates sludge. "
I for one do not think Pennzoil alone creates sludge. Coolant in oil, too long a drain interval (using regular service schedule instead of severe service schedule), blocked coolant passages, pulling or hauling loads without checking maintainance items, are some of the causes of sludging.
I for one do not think Pennzoil alone creates sludge. Coolant in oil, too long a drain interval (using regular service schedule instead of severe service schedule), blocked coolant passages, pulling or hauling loads without checking maintainance items, are some of the causes of sludging.
Drew99GT, I heard so much negative stuff about Pennzoil that I switched to Valvoline oil. I had been using Pennzoil but when I bought a Toyota Tercel and attended the maintenance seminar, that Toyota dealership was in the process of switching from recommending Pennzoil to recommending Valvoline. I have heard mechanics saying that Pennzoil (and Quaker State) cause sludge buildup in engines. And a couple of people who work at a Saturn dealership told me not to use Pennzoil. So did a Pike's Peak Hill Climb race car driver.
Let me tell you what I think. I do not think that Pennzoil (and Quaker State) are any different from any other conventional motor oils. In fact, based on VOAs and UOAs that people have done at this site, Pennzoil is one of the best motor oils available. Quaker State really has not been checked out too much.
As far as I know Pennzoil is still the number one brand of conventional motor oil sold in the United States. Quaker State as far as I know is number two. So what happens is, there are so many people using Pennzoil and Quaker State motor oil, mechanics are bound to see a lot of sludged up engines where people were using Pennzoil or Quaker State. When the mechanics ask the people what oil they were using, and they say Pennzoil or Quaker State, the mechanics think that they have made a connection. But if they really looked at things, they would probably realize that just as many vehicles using Valvoline or whatever are sludged up-but there are fewer people using those other brands and the mechanics do not make the connection!
They are asking people the wrong question! Instead of asking people what brand of oil they were using, when somebody brings in a sludged up engine, they need to be asking how often they changed oil. Most cases of sludge build-up are probably due to maintenance neglect, NOT TO THE BRAND OF OIL! It will maybe seem like the brand of oil, because certain brands are very popular. As long as a brand of oil makes API and SAE requirements for chemical additives and viscosity, any decent brand of motor oil should get the job done.
Of course, there have been problems recently with some cars, vans, and SUVs apparently having inherant sludge buildup problems. In these cases, it may not make a different what brand of oil you are using, you could still wind up with a problem-even if you were using Mobil 1, much less some conventional motor oil! With a lot of vehicles today, I think people would be wise to use Auto-RX (a maintenance dose) or Lube Control from the day they bought the vehicle.
Let me tell you what I think. I do not think that Pennzoil (and Quaker State) are any different from any other conventional motor oils. In fact, based on VOAs and UOAs that people have done at this site, Pennzoil is one of the best motor oils available. Quaker State really has not been checked out too much.
As far as I know Pennzoil is still the number one brand of conventional motor oil sold in the United States. Quaker State as far as I know is number two. So what happens is, there are so many people using Pennzoil and Quaker State motor oil, mechanics are bound to see a lot of sludged up engines where people were using Pennzoil or Quaker State. When the mechanics ask the people what oil they were using, and they say Pennzoil or Quaker State, the mechanics think that they have made a connection. But if they really looked at things, they would probably realize that just as many vehicles using Valvoline or whatever are sludged up-but there are fewer people using those other brands and the mechanics do not make the connection!
They are asking people the wrong question! Instead of asking people what brand of oil they were using, when somebody brings in a sludged up engine, they need to be asking how often they changed oil. Most cases of sludge build-up are probably due to maintenance neglect, NOT TO THE BRAND OF OIL! It will maybe seem like the brand of oil, because certain brands are very popular. As long as a brand of oil makes API and SAE requirements for chemical additives and viscosity, any decent brand of motor oil should get the job done.
Of course, there have been problems recently with some cars, vans, and SUVs apparently having inherant sludge buildup problems. In these cases, it may not make a different what brand of oil you are using, you could still wind up with a problem-even if you were using Mobil 1, much less some conventional motor oil! With a lot of vehicles today, I think people would be wise to use Auto-RX (a maintenance dose) or Lube Control from the day they bought the vehicle.
Don't blame Pennzoil "purebase".
A well additivzed GPII+ is not the issue. I tested Conoco "hydroclear" oils( both Conoco and Pennzoil base oils are made at same plant cooperatively) in 99 and predicted those oils would revolutionize the marketing difference between synthetic and mineral oils by narrowing the quality gap.
The intro of GRP III oils narrows that gap even further, except that marketing is selling GRP III at too high a price which we the consumers are unknowingly paying due to ignorance.
See my posts to that effect on the noria automotive board.
The current Pennzoil product that would have been used in this car is about as good as you can buy.
It will be interesting to see what if any contributory issues are affecting this engine. You are all touching on the reasons for sludging in toyos and they are all contributory IMHO.
Don't blame the oil.
Where's Huntersville NC ?
A well additivzed GPII+ is not the issue. I tested Conoco "hydroclear" oils( both Conoco and Pennzoil base oils are made at same plant cooperatively) in 99 and predicted those oils would revolutionize the marketing difference between synthetic and mineral oils by narrowing the quality gap.
The intro of GRP III oils narrows that gap even further, except that marketing is selling GRP III at too high a price which we the consumers are unknowingly paying due to ignorance.
See my posts to that effect on the noria automotive board.
The current Pennzoil product that would have been used in this car is about as good as you can buy.
It will be interesting to see what if any contributory issues are affecting this engine. You are all touching on the reasons for sludging in toyos and they are all contributory IMHO.
Don't blame the oil.
Where's Huntersville NC ?
huntersville is about 15 miles north of charlotte
Terry, what can I use to flush out what sludge is left, I shop vac'd most og it
Terry, what can I use to flush out what sludge is left, I shop vac'd most og it
throw a quart of tranny fluid + kerosene in and run it for twenty minutes then change the oil and filter.
My wife has a 1995 Toyota 4Runner and has 141,000 miles; about three weeks ago, the rear main let go and I'm having to have that fixed, but no problems whatsoever from a sludge problem. One of the reasons we bought this model was because the 1994 thru 1996 models were supposed to have sound engines in them and it already had 81,000 on it when we purchased it. We have always ran 10w-30 Full Synthetic oil and changed it once per year; she drives about 14,000 / yr. Heck, we have yet to change the timing belt or chain whichever it has.
WOW! I thought I had seen some abused
valvetrains before, but those pic's take the cake.
Talk about ignoring basic maintenance practices! What did the dipstick look like? The oil filler cap HAD to be covered with crud, too. Some people just don't have a clue, do they?
I, too, agree that it was probably not the brand of oil (or even the dino/synthetic factor) but HEAT, HEAT & more HEAT cookin' the oil as if it was on the stove on HIGH!
Getting rid of as much of that crap as possible before you ever button it back up is vital. I'm not so sure that even using a flush product (Amsoil's?) and fresh (CHEAP) oil & filter a couple times for short intervals (like until the oil looks dirty, shouldn't be very long!) and then going with the Auto-Rx regimine that Terry recommended wouldn't help. If it is $6K for a new engine one shouldn't worry about spending a couple hundred bucks on cases of Chevron (or Pennzoil), a half dozen filters and some Auto-Rx,
IMHO, of course.
Gotta' follow the story on this thread, for sure!
Good luck!
Talk about ignoring basic maintenance practices! What did the dipstick look like? The oil filler cap HAD to be covered with crud, too. Some people just don't have a clue, do they?
I, too, agree that it was probably not the brand of oil (or even the dino/synthetic factor) but HEAT, HEAT & more HEAT cookin' the oil as if it was on the stove on HIGH!
Getting rid of as much of that crap as possible before you ever button it back up is vital. I'm not so sure that even using a flush product (Amsoil's?) and fresh (CHEAP) oil & filter a couple times for short intervals (like until the oil looks dirty, shouldn't be very long!) and then going with the Auto-Rx regimine that Terry recommended wouldn't help. If it is $6K for a new engine one shouldn't worry about spending a couple hundred bucks on cases of Chevron (or Pennzoil), a half dozen filters and some Auto-Rx,
IMHO, of course.
Gotta' follow the story on this thread, for sure!
Good luck!
If that black stuff dissolves with water, it's coolant.
Leo
Leo
Common guys, he has a coolant leak. This has nothing to do with oil. The 3.4L V6 has no sludge issues. The early engines like my '96 had a head gasket recall because of a faulty batch of material. It was probably missed. When the gasket blows, the sludge can form over just a couple hundred miles. We need to know:
1. Is the smoke grey/white or black? If it is black the engine is probably trashed. White smoke would be consistent with a blown head gasket and maybe the problem was diagnosed before excessive engine damage was done.
2. Did the coolant in the expansion tank suddenly increase or decrease in volume?
3. Are there signs of oil or combustion products in the coolant?
If the oil had never been changed since the car was new there would not be that much sludge. It has to be a coolant leak.
1. Is the smoke grey/white or black? If it is black the engine is probably trashed. White smoke would be consistent with a blown head gasket and maybe the problem was diagnosed before excessive engine damage was done.
2. Did the coolant in the expansion tank suddenly increase or decrease in volume?
3. Are there signs of oil or combustion products in the coolant?
If the oil had never been changed since the car was new there would not be that much sludge. It has to be a coolant leak.
Thanks for the orientation. I spend some time in the that area periodically.
Screwdriver, scraper, and rags with a "gunk" type spray solvent. You'll change whats left of this oil out anyway. Get as much out as you can. Someone here mentioned the pickup screen and that could be an issue, if you have ANY reason to think the oil pickup or pressure was poor, drop the pan and clean from the underside.
You haven't answered the question of the possibility of coolant ingression, any sign of that as you have driven it for the last 30,000 miles or so ? Is this yours or are you doing work for the owner.
Sad thing is I could have called this early from a $35 oil sample and this would never happened.
Good luck.
Just saw your post,
Drstresser, I have seen sludge this bad in the 3.0L engine with NO coolant issue. Never in this 3.4L series engine.
[ June 25, 2003, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]
Screwdriver, scraper, and rags with a "gunk" type spray solvent. You'll change whats left of this oil out anyway. Get as much out as you can. Someone here mentioned the pickup screen and that could be an issue, if you have ANY reason to think the oil pickup or pressure was poor, drop the pan and clean from the underside.
You haven't answered the question of the possibility of coolant ingression, any sign of that as you have driven it for the last 30,000 miles or so ? Is this yours or are you doing work for the owner.
Sad thing is I could have called this early from a $35 oil sample and this would never happened.
Good luck.
Just saw your post,
Drstresser, I have seen sludge this bad in the 3.0L engine with NO coolant issue. Never in this 3.4L series engine.
[ June 25, 2003, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]
With that level of sludge and low millage it would have to be one of two main things. Coolant leak or neglect. My family has owned Toyota cars and trucks since 1971 to present and I have never seen sludge in any of them. We ran dino oil until 1988 or 1989 when I switched over to synthetic and I convinced my Dad to switch by 1992 or 1993. I just recently bought a New Toyota and my dealer had a jar on the counter. The jar was filled with sludge. The sludge came out of a 4Runner. THe owner of the 4Runner brought his SUV in complaining of poor performance and oil consumption. They could not figure out what was wrong with the engine. They decided to take the valve covers off and found alot of sludge. THe guy had not changed his oil in 90,000 miles. He just kept topping it off.
I agree that your best course of action is to follow Terry's advice to the letter. If terry does not object I would definately drop the pan and remove all the sludge I could. I would make sure that pickup screen is clear. I would also try to clean as much sludge as possable from head. No matter how much you you can get out of their manualy Auto-RX will still have alot of work to do. I have seen worse engines return to normaly use after intervention and give good service life.
I agree that your best course of action is to follow Terry's advice to the letter. If terry does not object I would definately drop the pan and remove all the sludge I could. I would make sure that pickup screen is clear. I would also try to clean as much sludge as possable from head. No matter how much you you can get out of their manualy Auto-RX will still have alot of work to do. I have seen worse engines return to normaly use after intervention and give good service life.
Terry, I have a 2001 runner 3.4, and I am running Mobil 1 10w30, do you think that Redline is alot better than M1? I use only Redline lubes in the tranny and diffs. but I thought that Redline in the motor maybe over kill since I only put about 5k a year on this truck, (almost all stop and go). Any comments?
I wish now that I had not listened to other people and just kept using Pennzoil or Quaker State. I used Pennzoil for many years. They were using Quaker State at the Saturn dealership.
Because I listened to other people whom I thought knew what they were talking about, I switched to a brand of oil that does not look good in VOAs and UOAs that people have done here.
If you are wondering how good or how bad your motor oil is, spend the money and do a UOA. If the UOA looks good keep using that brand of oil. If the UOA looks bad, switch. But have a reason to switch better than just what people say.
Because I listened to other people whom I thought knew what they were talking about, I switched to a brand of oil that does not look good in VOAs and UOAs that people have done here.
If you are wondering how good or how bad your motor oil is, spend the money and do a UOA. If the UOA looks good keep using that brand of oil. If the UOA looks bad, switch. But have a reason to switch better than just what people say.
My Saturn coupe has 70k miles on it, not TOO many less then that toyota. I've used penzoil and walmart supertech in it since I bought it at 14k miles. I generally changed the oil every 2500-3200 miles. NEVER more. and even using that cheap of oil when I poped my valve covers to snap some pictures before I started my Auto-rx treatment I was amazed at how clean it looked. There was varnishing. and some slightly thicker spots but for the most part it was still shiny nice looking metal.
What it has taught me is that even the cheap stuff (group I,II's right?) seems to work fine if you stay on it and keep fresh oil in the thing.
I'm still planing on switching to Mobil 1 soon because with changing it myself putting mobil 1 in it wont hardly cost anything more then letting some lube place do it. Oh yeah I also get to go 2-2.5X longer before I have to do it again. cant beat that.
What it has taught me is that even the cheap stuff (group I,II's right?) seems to work fine if you stay on it and keep fresh oil in the thing.
I'm still planing on switching to Mobil 1 soon because with changing it myself putting mobil 1 in it wont hardly cost anything more then letting some lube place do it. Oh yeah I also get to go 2-2.5X longer before I have to do it again. cant beat that.
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