2025 so far EV sales up 28%

[alarmguy]

Yet that data is available easily from many third parties.

If one is judging companies by lack of transparency they all live in glass houses, but to what extent, is all obfuscation equal?

Is failing to publish but available, the same level as intentional obfuscation by choice or ineptitude?

Yet Tesla chooses not to release their sales figures broken down like other manufacturers, intentional? Of course, they have the numbers but don’t publish.
What’s your thoughts on why?

I can tell you mine. Which we know, they want the USA numbers buried in their numbers release is the only reason

 

[GrumpyCat]

On a per dollar spent for travel time and cost they do.

On paper the higher voltage is always better, but how does that translate to the real world?

Only a few 800Volt cars offer any kind of meaningful trip time reduction, and then only on a 100% 800V network without sharing, and the vast majority of those that do are MUCH more expensive and have much larger batteries.

Oh, so everything electric is "voltage" and voltage is everything. An 80V string trimmer is twice as good as a 40v string trimmer because "voltage". Got it. 9.6v cordless tools displaced by superior 12v tools. 12v displaced by 14.4v. 14.4v displaced by 18v. 18v displaced by 20v... If only we had a Government Bureaucrat to dictate The Correct Solution from the start! Typical quality of public education under the influence of marketing.

You also skipped right over my disdain for government picking winners and losers because obviously you are supporting a government lead. "Because 920 is bigger than 800 is bigger than 400, I by the power of my superior reasoning declare government funding shall only back charging solutions using 920 volts or greater." Never mind what works. If one is to dictate a standard why not just say 2000v right now?

Reduction in charging time? You are not a student of what Tesla has done the past 13 years. My Model Y Supercharges about 4x faster than my 2013 Model S did. A friend's Model S charges about twice as fast as my Model Y. She can drive 700 miles stopping for a total of 30 minutes. Most of us spend more time on biological functions than that.

 

[Danno]

She can drive 700 miles stopping for a total of 30 minutes. Most of us spend more time on biological functions than that.

If you're spending more than 10 minutes on biological functions, there are other factors in play. Imo.

 

[GrumpyCat]

On paper the higher voltage is always better, but how does that translate to the real world?

Higher voltage only results in smaller wires, bigger insulation.

Only a few 800Volt cars offer any kind of meaningful trip time reduction, and then only on a 100% 800V network without sharing, and the vast majority of those that do are MUCH more expensive and have much larger batteries.

Just because a car with "800v" might deliver "meaningful trip time reduction" does not mean that was due to "800v". As you say, "much larger batteries" are also found. The way to put 100 miles of range into a battery faster is to start with a larger battery. If 100 miles is 25% of the capacity it can be filled much faster (at higher kW) than if 100 miles is 50% of the capacity.

And remember: Watt = Volt * Amp (for all intents and purposes of discussion)

 

[GrumpyCat]

If you're spending more than 10 minutes on biological functions, there are other factors in play. Imo.

If you spend 10-12 hours in a car and don't get out to walk and stretch then you are a driving hazard.

 

[UncleDave]

Higher voltage only results in smaller wires, bigger insulation.


Just because a car with "800v" might deliver "meaningful trip time reduction" does not mean that was due to "800v". As you say, "much larger batteries" are also found. The way to put 100 miles of range into a battery faster is to start with a larger battery. If 100 miles is 25% of the capacity it can be filled much faster (at higher kW) than if 100 miles is 50% of the capacity.

And remember: Watt = Volt * Amp (for all intents and purposes of discussion)

We're basically saying the same thing.

 

[UncleDave]

Oh, so everything electric is "voltage" and voltage is everything. An 80V string trimmer is twice as good as a 40v string trimmer because "voltage". Got it. 9.6v cordless tools displaced by superior 12v tools. 12v displaced by 14.4v. 14.4v displaced by 18v. 18v displaced by 20v... If only we had a Government Bureaucrat to dictate The Correct Solution from the start! Typical quality of public education under the influence of marketing.

You also skipped right over my disdain for government picking winners and losers because obviously you are supporting a government lead. "Because 920 is bigger than 800 is bigger than 400, I by the power of my superior reasoning declare government funding shall only back charging solutions using 920 volts or greater." Never mind what works. If one is to dictate a standard why not just say 2000v right now?

Reduction in charging time? You are not a student of what Tesla has done the past 13 years. My Model Y Supercharges about 4x faster than my 2013 Model S did. A friend's Model S charges about twice as fast as my Model Y. She can drive 700 miles stopping for a total of 30 minutes. Most of us spend more time on biological functions than that.

Actually no, I'm saying the same thing you are. That voltage is not everything.

I've used the same hand tool analogy with my makita line up but you weren't in those threads.

If you go back through my threads where people wax poetic about the supposed superiority of 800 V cars I point out multiple time that teslas complete trip cycles faster in most instances.

Bjorn Nyland and Kyle at out of spec do a pretty good job of doing trip time testing and the 400V cars hold their own quite well, or I should say the teslas do.

Yes I skipped the governmental piece as I wish to avoid any kind of political introduction or continuation as per Bitogs rules.

 

[UncleDave]

Yet Tesla chooses not to release their sales figures broken down like other manufacturers, intentional? Of course, they have the numbers but don’t publish.
What’s your thoughts on why?

I can tell you mine. Which we know, they want the USA numbers buried in their numbers release is the only reason

Tesla doesn't give you any country data. Yet I can find all that data easily.

Ford splits out their EV numbers from Ice so we can all see how good a job they are doing with shareholder money.

GM refuses or cannot split their books so shareholders have no idea how the division its product and people are performing - can we get this from third parties - no we cannot.

Ford is the most transparent, I commend Jim Farley for this move.

 

[Torrid]

Yet Tesla chooses not to release their sales figures broken down like other manufacturers, intentional? Of course, they have the numbers but don’t publish.
What’s your thoughts on why?

I can tell you mine. Which we know, they want the USA numbers buried in their numbers release is the only reason

Is anyone globally even buying S and X? Cybertruck isn’t available in most markets. If they weren’t selling the Y and 3 I don’t think they’d still be in business.

Now I’m not saying that means they shouldn’t release those numbers, I think it just says those models are a blip on the radar of their overall sales.

 

[alarmguy]

Tesla doesn't give you any country data. Yet I can find all that data easily.

Ford splits out their EV numbers from Ice so we can all see how good a job they are doing with shareholder money.

GM refuses or cannot split their books so shareholders have no idea how the division its product and people are performing - can we get this from third parties - no we cannot.

Ford is the most transparent, I commend Jim Farley for this move.

Tesla doesn’t report USA sales
To the best of my knowledge based on reports that I read “ Tesla, China” reports sales numbers
Maybe I’m missing something here?

Ford and GM do report USA sales

 

[alarmguy]

Is anyone globally even buying S and X? Cybertruck isn’t available in most markets. If they weren’t selling the Y and 3 I don’t think they’d still be in business.

Now I’m not saying that means they shouldn’t release those numbers, I think it just says those models are a blip on the radar of their overall sales.

Maybe we misunderstanding. It’s possible I am because I seem to go through this in the electric vehicle thread all the time.

Tesla does not disclose how many cars it sells in the USA
Outside companies put together data and come up with the sales number which is considered reasonably accurate. With that said certain automotive media find it very frustrating that they do not.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Tesla doesn’t report USA sales
To the best of my knowledge based on reports that I read “ Tesla, China” reports sales numbers
Maybe I’m missing something here?

Ford and GM do report USA sales

The numbers come from vehicle registrations, not Tesla financial reporting.

 

[alarmguy]

The numbers come from vehicle registrations, not Tesla financial reporting.

Exactly Tesla does not report USA sales
Ford and GM do

 

[Torrid]

Maybe we misunderstanding. It’s possible I am because I seem to go through this in the electric vehicle thread all the time.

Tesla does not disclose how many cars it sells in the USA
Outside companies put together data and come up with the sales number which is considered reasonably accurate. With that said certain automotive media find it very frustrating that they do not.

I see what you mean. I thought they grouped sales. I misunderstood. I thought all of these counts came off of registrations. I never dug deeper than that myself.

 

[alarmguy]

I see what you mean. I thought they grouped sales. I misunderstood. I thought all of these counts came off of registrations. I never dug deeper than that myself.

Yeah, and it’s not a big deal, but it is something that irritates the industry. I do seem to get debates in here on it and it’s unintentional, but it is what it is and I don’t know why some seem to defend it.
Again, no big deal

 

[JeffKeryk]

Exactly Tesla does not report USA sales
Ford and GM do

Yes, but GM, for example, Mickey Mouses some the values to appear EV profitable. You have to understand financial statements to glean real information. Everybody does it somewhat differently.

I generated financial numbers for a billion dollar company under SEC rules. The CEO and CFO are held legally responsible for these figures; it ain't no joke. So I kinda laugh at the way some CEOs twist the data to make their performance sound good to the uninformed. Smoke and mirrors, but it is their job to make the company look good, especially to the investment community.

They all do it.

 

[UncleDave]

Tesla doesn’t report USA sales
To the best of my knowledge based on reports that I read “ Tesla, China” reports sales numbers
Maybe I’m missing something here?

Ford and GM do report USA sales

I said a few replies ago, you can get that from third parties.

 

[UncleDave]

Exactly Tesla does not report USA sales
Ford and GM do

GM doesnt split its books so we have no idea what the impact of what they sell means to the company.

 

[UncleDave]

The numbers come from vehicle registrations, not Tesla financial reporting.

We've both told him that about half a dozen times over a variety of threads.

 

[JeffKeryk]

We've both told him that about half a dozen times over a variety of threads.

I think what's important is information from sources other than the manufacturer.
Manufacturers will claim, and show numbers to support those claims, that make them look good.
But without detail and a knowledge of financial terms and documents, it can be smoke and mirrors. They all do it, so analytics from outside is critical to glean valid information from numbers data.

Declaring profitability at a time of sale is only valid if cost components are standardized and recognized. Then, as time passes, warranty claims can wipe out profit if they exceed the warranty holdback. They did include warranty holdback in their profit calculation, right? Recalls... Returns... It's all part of the actual set of numbers.