2010 Hyundai Santa Fe 3.5L V6, loud startup rattle (with recording!) vvt phasers?

[nicholas]

On the 2010 3.5 santa fe its on the right side of the engine.
You need to remove the air filter box and intake pipe to get at it.
Ours was full of crud and did not move.

 

[Ozzuneoj]

On the 2010 3.5 santa fe its on the right side of the engine.
You need to remove the air filter box and intake pipe to get at it.
Ours was full of crud and did not move.

Thanks. I think I managed to locate it with a flash light, and it doesn't look unreachable.

I'm thinking I'll just set aside a day very soon to replace that and the oil pressure switch since I have to remove some of the same parts for both, and the pressure switch looks like it needs to be replaced (I stuck a scope camera in there and saw it and there is some oil in that area).

Once the probably-gummed-up PCV and probably-leaky oil pressure switch are replaced, I wonder if it will have any impact on the actuator rattle, since it is controlled by oil pressure. It'll probably just do it every time now.... or maybe nothing will change because the leak and clog are currently counteracting each other.

Since I'll be working in the area near the oil control valves\solenoids, does anyone have any recomendations for cleaning them or making sure they work properly? They aren't cheap, so I'm not sure if it's worth just buying replacements without knowing if they need to be replaced.

 

[nicholas]

Thanks. I think I managed to locate it with a flash light, and it doesn't look unreachable.

I'm thinking I'll just set aside a day very soon to replace that and the oil pressure switch since I have to remove some of the same parts for both, and the pressure switch looks like it needs to be replaced (I stuck a scope camera in there and saw it and there is some oil in that area).

Once the probably-gummed-up PCV and probably-leaky oil pressure switch are replaced, I wonder if it will have any impact on the actuator rattle, since it is controlled by oil pressure. It'll probably just do it every time now.... or maybe nothing will change because the leak and clog are currently counteracting each other.

Since I'll be working in the area near the oil control valves\solenoids, does anyone have any recomendations for cleaning them or making sure they work properly? They aren't cheap, so I'm not sure if it's worth just buying replacements without knowing if they need to be replaced.

Our rattle was caused by the actuators seals not holding oil anymore.
We ended up needing replacement because it got so bad our timing started to go off when the engine was warm.
You could try a bottle of at 205 for an oil change.
See if that helps.

 

[Ozzuneoj]

Our rattle was caused by the actuators seals not holding oil anymore.
We ended up needing replacement because it got so bad our timing started to go off when the engine was warm.
You could try a bottle of at 205 for an oil change.
See if that helps.

You had mentioned in an earlier post about this that they showed you the part and the failed seals. What part did they show you exactly? When I look up VVT actuators for Hyundai I often get pictures of the VVT solenoids, which also have seals.

Sadly there aren't any pictures of the inside of the VVT actuators\phasers online anywhere that I can find. I can't find pictures of VVT actuator\phaser seals for any make, honestly. It'd be awesome if some mechanic or Hyundai owner had one of these old bad phasers laying around they could dismantle and take pictures of. When dealing with (potentially) several thousand dollar repairs, I like to be able to see exactly what is wrong.

I'm considering trying the at205, but I'm seeing lots of horror stories of people using it and then needing major repairs because it loosed tons of gunk all at once which then clogged up all sorts of things. Some also say they have had it over expand seals, causing them to break? I'm not sure how that works.

EDIT: By the way, just called the Hyundai dealership that is closest to me (about 40 miles away) and they had never heard of any problems with Hyundai V6 engines... apparently ever? He had absolutely no input, and didn't seem to have any knowledge of anything causing loud startup noise... he just wanted me to bring it in. Then I called a Kia dealer about 20 miles away and they were more helpful but had also never run into issues with these V6 engines... and obviously couldn't help beyond that since they aren't a Hyundai dealer.

So, I hate to say it but I think I'm on my own with this one. One of the downsides of living in the middle of nowhere.

 

[nicholas]

You had mentioned in an earlier post about this that they showed you the part and the failed seals. What part did they show you exactly? When I look up VVT actuators for Hyundai I often get pictures of the VVT solenoids, which also have seals.

Sadly there aren't any pictures of the inside of the VVT actuators\phasers online anywhere that I can find. I can't find pictures of VVT actuator\phaser seals for any make, honestly. It'd be awesome if some mechanic or Hyundai owner had one of these old bad phasers laying around they could dismantle and take pictures of. When dealing with (potentially) several thousand dollar repairs, I like to be able to see exactly what is wrong.

I'm considering trying the at205, but I'm seeing lots of horror stories of people using it and then needing major repairs because it loosed tons of gunk all at once which then clogged up all sorts of things. Some also say they have had it over expand seals, causing them to break? I'm not sure how that works.

EDIT: By the way, just called the Hyundai dealership that is closest to me (about 40 miles away) and they had never heard of any problems with Hyundai V6 engines... apparently ever? He had absolutely no input, and didn't seem to have any knowledge of anything causing loud startup noise... he just wanted me to bring it in. Then I called a Kia dealer about 20 miles away and they were more helpful but had also never run into issues with these V6 engines... and obviously couldn't help beyond that since they aren't a Hyundai dealer.

So, I hate to say it but I think I'm on my own with this one. One of the downsides of living in the middle of nowhere.

It looked like a thick round disc with an input where the cam goes in.
The seal is in there.
When we took our in. The tech thought it was the oil filter at first. After checking the timing with the GDS software it was obvious.
There were seeing more of this issue when I brought ours in.

Its crazy because I used 5w-20 and changed the oil VERY often. Every 3-4 months....never drove enough kms. Lots of short trips.

Good luck......dealers do not have a lot of really good mechanics. They can swap parts but not really take apart things.

 

[Ozzuneoj]

I just wanted to mention briefly, I have just talked to someone highly knowledgeable with regard to this specific problem. Someone who said they have done this repair personally. I don't know their background exactly, but the detail they've provided (and the fact that they sell OEM and remanufactured engine parts for Kia\Hyundai and others) leads me to believe they work at an engine repair shop.

I will post part of the conversation I had with him. I had messaged him with regard to the CVVT phaser\sprocket\gear (whatever you want to call it). Specifically, part number 243503C100, which I believe is only found on the older pre-2014 or pre-2014 models discussed in this thread (before the new cams and phasers were used).

I asked him if it was possible to just replace the "guts" of this part, since it appears that it could be opened on the end without messing with the timing chain. I was wrong, but he went into detail to explain the ACTUAL CAUSE of this problem and what is needed to fix it.

His first reply to me:

While I am impressed with your effort, I am afraid this part is not serviceable. The most common failure with this hardware is startup noise. This is a result of a loss in lock pin engagement. The lock pin is tapered, and is wedged in place during vehicle shutdown. This wedge is caused by the relationship between both the rotor (outside), and the stator (inside) of the CVVT unit.

You would need to replace both the rotor and the stator. Replacing either of these will require you to remove the CVVT assembly and remove the timing chain. In reality, replacing any internal component will likely require you to remove the assembly off the camshaft.

Here's a link to a video which might be helpful for you.

I hope this is helpful, and best of luck with your repair!​

I sent a link to this thread, to which he replied:

Thanks for the link. Interesting reading! It's tough as a consumer to know who's opinion is the wisest isn't it!

What I am reading in the thread has a few hits and a few misses. This particular rattle problem will be isolated to this particular part #. The wedge shaped lock pin was the problem: though the pin would be engaged, there wasn't enough engagement to keep it wedged and it walks out during engine cranking. This is likely why the problem is hit or miss depending on if it remains engaged or not. I would not put money on the oil quality myself. The updated design has a straight pin, which will not come unlocked during cranking, and thus that problem is solved. For the later model vehicles, I would bet on timing chain as the culprit.

For your vehicle, my personal bet would be the CVVT units, but I know there were some issues with timing chain and tensionsers too, but most likely CVVTs. The dealer will tell you to replace all CVVT assemblies, timing chains and tensioners at the same time. I did dialogue with one buyer just last month who told me the dealer would not sell this part any more, and he needed to replace the camshafts to complete the job. Hyundai made a change to the engine which required a new cam, which only increases the customer's price tag! I personally avoid dealers at times myself.

I work in the automotive world, and I have experience changing this hardware. However, I have never done it inside a vehicle where space is limited. There are three timing marks on the part - 1 for the timing chain, 1 for alignment to the cylinder head, and 1 for alignment to the exhaust sprocket. Timing is no more complicated than a non-CVVT engine, but you are wise to be asking for experience to this level. You don't want an "oil change guy" doing this!

If it's a brief startup rattle, you could probably go without replacement. It likely isn't hurting anything else, but it will get louder over time.

Thanks for the stimulating conversation​

I won't post any more of the conversation without asking him, since it could be connected to his business. Needless to say, this guy seriously sounds like he knows his stuff, and I have seen lots of evidence that he's legit.

Explained that way, the problem makes SO MUCH sense. It is a manufacturing tolerance issue. This would explain why the earlier vehicles, like my '06 Sonata which use this exact same part number are far less likely to have this issue. Hyundai was likely having issues manufacturing this part to their own specifications as time went on, so they eliminated the need for such a precise component by changing the cam and phaser design. Simply having a phaser that was manufactured with the proper tolerance eliminates the problem, which is why some vehicles never experience this, while others seemingly had it with very low mileage... way before any seals or other things would have worn out.

If I can find someone to do the job, I have a pair of problem-free phasers on their way to me. If anyone has seen instructions anywhere for this specific job (mostly just getting the timing cover off with the engine in the Santa Fe), please let me know. Whoever ends up taking this on will likely benefit from that unless they've done it before.

 

[sf2010]

Goodnight. Firstly, I'm sorry for reviving the post. Does anyone have a solution and could share? I have the same problem.