2010 Audi A4/S4

[rpn453]

Has anyone else driven a 2009 or newer A4? I test drove one recently and thought the steering feel, or complete lack of, was terrible. It required a lot of effort just to drive straight on the highway because I could never feel what the wheels were doing.

My buddy was thinking of getting one to fulfill his desire to own a reasonably fast AWD sport sedan, and figured he had it narrowed down to either a base A4 Quattro with manual transmission and the sport package (18" wheels and stiffer suspension), or a base S4. He had been to the dealership many times to talk pricing and options, and had taken a couple of short drives in the A4. He had also taken a non-sport-package for a serious test drive but found the suspension to be too soft for his tastes. He complained about the steering, but just thought it was hard to control because of the loose suspension. So, we went to the dealership last Saturday to compare the A4 and S4 back-to-back so he could make a final decision. From the passenger seat, the suspension seemed a little busy but about the right stiffness. He wasn't sure he liked driving it though so we traded seats. In addition to the steering issue, when I attempted to blip the throttle on a downshift the revs didn't even go above 1000 rpm. I had to floor the pedal and delay my shift while waiting for the revs to come up. I also didn't really like the clutch, throttle, and shifter feel, but the steering was what really killed it for me; I didn't enjoy driving that car at all because of that. The one we drove had Audi Drive-Select so we played with that but it didn't improve anything. We returned to the dealership where they had the S4 idling and ready to go, but declined the test drive of the S4 to go check out the 328xi before the afternoon ended. He had wanted to avoid BMW due to the run-flats with no room to carry a spare tire. The 328 was much better to drive - which I expected because we had driven it a few weeks before - though it still had quite a bit of throttle lag and the steering felt heavy and numb at low speeds only. You could also feel the sharper impacts more despite the suspension being otherwise very well composed, but I blame that on the run-flats. A bit of throttle lag is expected on a drive-by-wire throttle, but even the BMW had far more than the DBW system on my Mazda3. It was probably even more obvious to him, as his current car uses a cable throttle.

The other cars we've driven recently in pursuit of an upgrade for his '97 Acura 1.6EL (all used vehicles were certified used vehicles with low mileage, and all cars tested had manual transmissions):

2007 Audi A4 3.2 Quattro with Sport Package: Sport suspension was too harsh. Engine sounded and felt really good though.

2007 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro: Suspension was too loose. Never felt stable.

2010 Infiniti G37 Sport M6 Sedan: I wasn't there for this drive, but he said the clutch was stiff and the shifter seemed too clunky for a daily driver. The suspension was also a little too firm, though the test drive was done with a coupe because they didn't have a manual sedan available. It's only available in RWD with a manual, and he'd prefer AWD if he's spending that kind of money. It also doesn't have fold-down rear seats. Not a deal breaker, but it definitely loses points for that.

2007 Acura TL: Suspension was too soft and loose. Felt a little too big as well. The new ones are available with AWD and a manual, but are far too ugly to even test drive!

2008 Acura TSX: This would be my choice. It's down on power compared to the others we drove, but everything else seems good. If it were available in AWD, he'd have probably already bought one. We prefer the looks of the previous generation, so if he went with a TSX it would be used.

He was initially quite excited about buying a new car, but in the end, it looks like he may keep driving his old oil-burning Acura for a while. He's considering the idea of buying a 2004-2008 TSX, or a 2004-2005 pre-run-flat 3-series, if he can find a nice example of either. The strangest thing about these drives is that only the TSX suspension felt superior for both control and comfort on our typical roads than that of his current car, which has almost 200k miles and is running on the original shocks (yes, they really are original). The BMW would probably have the best suspension if the the initial impacts weren't so harsh. It's tolerable, but I'd definitely like to see what it would be like without run-flats. The concept of not having to change a tire at the side of the road is a good one, but not if it sacrifices ride quality. He's also an even bigger fan of studded tires than I am, so there are no run-flat winter tire options for him (that we know of) and he doesn't want to lose most of his trunk space by using one of the aftermarket spare tire kits that are available. Plus, he wouldn't want to limit his selection and pay the extra cost of replacing the original tires with run-flats when the time comes to replace the tires.

On the drive home, we were also laughing about how much better his old climate control system is. You don't have to push any extra buttons or pull up any menus on the screen to make adjustments; you can just turn a dial or slide a knob and you're done!

That was quite the ramble. Comments?

 

[xxch4osxx]

Sometimes new is not always best. I prefer the dash layout on my 2004 Silverado over the new styles, I think they are just plain ugly, lol.

 

[d00df00d]

Don't be too quick to dismiss the DBW cars for slow throttle response on the test drive. They supposedly adapt to driving style, so they may get quicker over time.

The E9x 3-series is a bit weird. It doesn't announce its intentions as clearly as the previous generations, so at low speeds you sometimes wonder why the heck you have to put up with the heavy steering and firm ride. Of course it is absolutely brilliant at high speeds, but that's not really a good trade-off in a street car IMO. I think its best strength is that it somehow feels like a much more serious car than its competitors (with the possible exception of the Mercedes C-class).

Definitely tell your buddy to hold off his decision until he gets to drive an S4. The newest one is getting rave reviews and should be a very different animal from the A4.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Without reading the whole review...

I don't really like the steering feel in some if the newer Audis, and the cars themselves have become quite heavy. The sporty feel of the Audi A4 of about 10 years ago, the B5 model is gone. The newer cars feel big and pigish.

The funny point I noticed, is that I prefer driving my 2007 Accord more than my friend's 2007 A4. My steering and responsiveness of my car is more like the old A4 than the new A4 is.

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Don't be too quick to dismiss the DBW cars for slow throttle response on the test drive. They supposedly adapt to driving style, so they may get quicker over time.

The E9x 3-series is a bit weird. It doesn't announce its intentions as clearly as the previous generations, so at low speeds you sometimes wonder why the heck you have to put up with the heavy steering and firm ride. Of course it is absolutely brilliant at high speeds, but that's not really a good trade-off in a street car IMO. I think its best strength is that it somehow feels like a much more serious car than its competitors (with the possible exception of the Mercedes C-class).

Definitely tell your buddy to hold off his decision until he gets to drive an S4. The newest one is getting rave reviews and should be a very different animal from the A4.


It's difficult to imagine spending $40k+ for a vehicle, hoping that it will get better in time though!

I actually had a laggy throttle on my Mazda3 for the first couple of years of ownership that gave me a temporary hatred of DBW. Then one day I got a CEL, took it into the dealer, and they hacked up the MAF sensor wiring. I don't really know what they did, but it has been good ever since. Manual-transmission-wise, it's not as good to drive as the '98 Pathfinder 5-speed I had, but it's not bad!

The BMW certainly did feel great on the highway.

Do you know if there are any differences, aside from the powertrain, between the S4 and a Premium-Packaged, Sport-Packaged A4 Quattro? The 2.0T had plenty of power, especially down low, so we just figured the S4 would only offer one thing we didn't need at the time: more power. Maybe we were wrong. The 2.0T felt even stronger than the 230hp I6 in the BMW, and we did take the Bimmer to redline. In reality, I expect they'd be similar in quickness, but the torque of the A4 felt good, and we didn't notice any turbo lag.

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Without reading the whole review...

I don't really like the steering feel in some if the newer Audis, and the cars themselves have become quite heavy. The sporty feel of the Audi A4 of about 10 years ago, the B5 model is gone. The newer cars feel big and pigish.

The funny point I noticed, is that I prefer driving my 2007 Accord more than my friend's 2007 A4. My steering and responsiveness of my car is more like the old A4 than the new A4 is.


Interesting. I test drove new Accords in '04 and in '06 and I enjoyed driving them. I was surprised to find that I can't say that about this or the last A4. Of the cars I drove at the time (all under $30k), the Accords were right behind the Mazda3 for driving pleasure and might have even been a better option.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie

I don't really like the steering feel in some if the newer Audis, and the cars themselves have become quite heavy. The sporty feel of the Audi A4 of about 10 years ago, the B5 model is gone. The newer cars feel big and pigish.

+1

We test drove a 2010 A4 2.0TQA recently. Honestly, I came away unimpressed. It didn't even feel that fast and like you said, somehow I felt less connected to the road than with the old B5.

 

[rpn453]

I'll add a couple more things.

The road noise in the Audi was also quite high compared to the BMW. It seemed to resonate a bit. Maybe the tires were to blame.

My buddy also drove a 2010 Legacy when he first started looking, but dismissed it because it had a cheaper interior and more road noise than the Infiniti, and didn't look nearly as good to him. Maybe he'll revisit that one now that he's put more thought into it, to see if the issues are only skin deep. It's cheaper than the other new options he's considered, and does have the best drivetrain, IMO, since I prefer a fully mechanical transmission and AWD system.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: rpn453
Do you know if there are any differences, aside from the powertrain, between the S4 and a Premium-Packaged, Sport-Packaged A4 Quattro?

Big suspension and brake differences, too. It may be based on the A4 but it's significantly more comprehensive as a performance car.


Originally Posted By: rpn453
The 2.0T felt even stronger than the 230hp I6 in the BMW, and we did take the Bimmer to redline. In reality, I expect they'd be similar in quickness, but the torque of the A4 felt good, and we didn't notice any turbo lag.

Yeah, the 2.0T has really nice midrange grunt. BMW prefers a much more linear style of power delivery, which can make even the M cars feel a lot slower than they are. The tradeoff is that when you do get to wind out some gears back-to-back, the car feels like it never runs out of breath. They even tend to outrun some cars with similar or better power-to-weight ratios at high speeds. Again, not necessarily a good tradeoff in a street car, but there it is.

Expect the S4 to have both the grunt of the 2.0T and the tirelessness of the BMW.

 

[Pesca]

While I was reading your initial post, I was always thinking "And why not an Impreza Turbo or a WRX?".

Manual, AWD, fun to drive: all sounds Subaru Impreza to me.

Even if you take the top of the line with all the options, it would still be cheaper than the Audi.
The problem is that the interior will still be cheaper looking than an Audi, but that depends of your taste, it is a personal thing. From what I remembe, the interior of the impreza, even if it is still quite dull, is better looking that the one of the new Legacy. BTW, why looking at the Legacy and not the Impreza?

As for the road noise, it can be mostly eliminated by changing the OEM tires by better ones and maybe some soundproof materials placed here and there.

 

[rpn453]

The Impreza was considered! I forgot to mention two other cars he drove initially and ruled out due to feeling cramped inside them (he's 6'3" with broad shoulders), and one was the Impreza. The other was the IS250.

He might consider a used Forester XT if he ever comes across one, or maybe even an Outback. I don't think he has driven either yet. The previous generation Legacy looks good, but doesn't have enough back seat room, so that's out.

 

[Lalo59]

RPN, Very nice post. Your buddy sounds like me in his wish list - I am looking for a sedan or small wagon with good handling, acceleration, interior, good head room and less road noise. I have an 2007 A4 2.0 and test drove the 2010 A4 and 3 series this weekend. I am not as sensitive to your concerns about steering but do agree the power assist in the A4 is too much at low speeds but I liked its steering at higher speeds. I was surprised to see some lag in the BMW from about 5 mph accelerating to 25. Is that the throttle lag you mention?

Many of those cars, like your Mazda3, Impreza and surprisingly, the A4 (mine and the new one) ARE noisy. One reason is the size of the ever wider, lower profile tires on leetle cars. The 328i was quieter than the A4 and that suprised me as I thought the runflats were noisy. Apparently the runflat problem is not noise but a super firm ride.

On noise, Hondas are generally noisy cars. I think they conciously have thinner windows, panels, and insulation to save weight. It works - I found Hondas and Acuras very nimble (at least the previous Accords, TSX and TL). But they are all too noisy for me. And the TLs are ponderous. And now the TL adds ***** to the mix. I am 6-3 and found my vision cut off by the sloping roof of the TSX.

The AWD Volvo S40 or V50 are cousins of the Mazda3 (same chassis I think) but with a great 2.5T that has 227 HP and is little more lux and I think, has less noise.

The used Outback XT might be an idea. The new Outbacks are ponderous but the last version of the Outback with that Turbo was a fun, fast car. Not so quiet but not really noisy. Leg room is not huge but is adequate. The 2010 Legacy XT would also seem to hit all his criteria - AWD, 250 HP Turbo, fold down seats, headroom, legroom and MT only!

 

[rpn453]

Thanks, Lalo59. Are you dissatisfied with your A4, or do you just tend to switch cars often?

The BMW didn't have much grunt down low when accelerating, but the throttle lag I'm talking about is the delay between pushing the throttle and the engine responding, when the clutch is disengaged. We didn't notice any throttle lag except when rev-matching our downshifts. Another friend had the same complaint when he drove a newer manual Dodge with a Cummins (he has a 2004.5). He believes the delay is due to programming to meet emissions regulations.

I haven't been in any cars lately that are anywhere near as loud as his Acura 1.6EL with (very sharp and pointy) studded winter tires! I find my Mazda3 to be quiet enough, even on my (far less aggressive) studded winter tires. The panels are rattly in the winter, but less so since I removed most of the panels and placed foam behind them. The new A4 is the only car in which I noticed unusual road noise during a test drive, but that and the 328 were the cars that received the most serious test drives. It wasn't excessive though. Now that I think about it, the A4 we drove had the S-Line package, so it did have 19" wheels and summer tires (roads were clear that day). Maybe that was a factor. The last vehicle purchase I was involved in was a 2006 Subaru Forester; non-turbo but well optioned. It had the most road noise of the many vehicles we had driven, but that was easy for the prospective owner to overlook because she loved everything else about it. It also had the most winter-capable all-seasons of anything we had looked at.

We looked at the Volvos (V50 and S60) in the showroom but never went for any test drives because we didn't have a lot of time that day and we didn't really care for the interiors. I don't remember any details other than the intrusive headrest, but neither of us could get totally comfortable sitting in them.

I would like to have a look at the Legacy with him next time we're in the same city together. I haven't examined the new Legacy at all, and I've only seen one on the road so far.

It sure takes a lot more effort to find the perfect car when your budget increases. It seemed much easier with a $25k limit!

 

[rpn453]

He drove the S4 shortly after my last post and enjoyed it much more than the A4. So, after looking for a black 6-speed 2004-2005 BMW 330xi for a couple of months - and even putting in an offer on an 05 with only 25k miles - he drove the S4 again and put a deposit down on a 2011 S4, to be delivered in the fall. I think he may have become addicted to torque during our recent trip to Bondurant, and the S4 has plenty. It will be a black on black base model, with premium leather (instead of Alcantara), 19" wheels, and the electronic rear differential as the only options. He plans on getting some OEM 18" A4/S4 wheels and studded Nokians for winter.

His Acura also got a heck of a lot quieter after he replaced a wheel bearing. After installing his summer tires this spring, the car was just as loud as with the studded tires. There was no abnormal tire wear, and noise would increase during right turns, so it was obviously the left front wheel bearing causing the noise.

 

[rpn453]

The S4 has arrived early. He took it for a good drive after picking it up and loves it. I look forward to trying it out myself! It's a great looking car.

The silly 'V6T' badges will be coming off soon to complete the clean look!

 

[Mr Nice]

The IS 250 is soooooooo sexy.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Great looking S4! I might get a slightly used one in a few years...

 

[CivicFan]

Drool. Nice car.


I see an RS6 in my future (when I win the lottery, that is).

 

[SteveSRT8]

Doodfood is correct about the throttle response on DBW cars. Most are adaptive and will quickly change based on demands.

Best thing is to find the proper fuse and pull it and start with fresh factory programming. This can make a HUGE difference in perceived power and response.

 

[rpn453]

We took the S4 for its maiden highway voyage recently, and we both think it was a good purchase. When we first set off, he immediately complained about the steering feel. He described it as being similar to a really good wheel for Gran Turismo. You can't really feel what the front wheels are doing, and resistance doesn't build much as you turn the wheels more. But that is the only major complaint we have about the car. On the highway, it didn't seem to affect the drive much as we got used to it quickly. There is a little feel, just not a lot.

The suspension is surprisingly comfortable considering how flatly it corners. The chassis feels very solid and road noise is minimal. The throttle is responsive, almost cable-throttle-like. I actually found myself over-revving it on the first few downshifts I tried. The clutch feels a little odd - like it requires less force to push the further you push it in - but it was easy enough to get used to. The shifter is a bit too high, so I expect he will change that. It’s well above the height of the center armrest.

The leather is the nicest I've seen and it feels like it will be durable - it actually seems like real leather - and the seats were very supportive and comfortable for a long drive. Controls were easy enough to use once you get used to them. One minor interior complaint: the cupholders aren't very good. It was difficult to remove my coffee cup and the pressure from the spring loaded holders tended to pop the lid off.

The stereo is the best factory stereo I've spent any significant time listening to and I think it will sound great once he gets his Alpine R12 in there to back it up. It's not the Bang and Olufsen option. We spent quite a bit of time listening to both stereos available and determined that, while the B&O may have sounded a little better with no fade, once the stereo is faded back a bit to reduce the harshness of the dash speakers that reflect off the windshield, the basic stereo sounded as good or maybe even better. Neither have a real subwoofer.