2007 Kawasaki Ninja 250R; HPL MC 10w-40 2.8k mi

[thetricky]

Looks like this engine and my right hand tear up oil! Bit surprised, however, now I know what OCI should be so that's good. Have 5gals of HPL 15w-40 HDEO sitting here so may experiment with that later on. Enjoy!

 

[Bonz]

Thanks for posting. Were both samples HPL, the current one and the one from 2023?

I'm interested in that before I say with bells that HPL did not show well. Unless I'm missing something on this sample, fuel dilution was minimal. That oil can't pull itself up by the bootstraps in a 250 twin cylinder. No way I would run that in my modded ZRX 1200 for 5,000 miles (my BITOG standard oci, Kawi's spec) that makes close to 6 times the horsepower and over 6 times the torque of a 250 Ninja. I understand RPM plays a role but 6+ times the torque at half the RPM (5000-6000 rpm, stuff is already happening really fast in any gear at that RPM) is at least as hard on an oil in my estimation. I would appreciate the collective to weigh in on that.

 

[thetricky]

No, the other one on there is Amsoil Metric 10w40. I'm with you, a bit surprised that HPL didn't hold it's own, and nothing changed in riding habits or the bike between Amsoil and the HPL. Now, to give the oil some credit, I ask for everything this motor has everytime I ride it. I weigh 220lbs and I usually ride at 9-13k RPM so I am not easy on the bike. Still, I was hoping for at least 4k OCI.

 

[TomYoung]

Thanks for posting. Were both samples HPL, the current one and the one from 2023?

I'm interested in that before I say with bells that HPL did not show well. Unless I'm missing something on this sample, fuel dilution was minimal. That oil can't pull itself up by the bootstraps in a 250 twin cylinder. No way I would run that in my modded ZRX 1200 for 5,000 miles (my BITOG standard oci, Kawi's spec) that makes close to 6 times the horsepower and over 6 times the torque of a 250 Ninja. I understand RPM plays a role but 6+ times the torque at half the RPM (5000-6000 rpm, stuff is already happening really fast in any gear at that RPM) is at least as hard on an oil in my estimation. I would appreciate the collective to weigh in on that.

I don’t think the power and torque are at issue, but most certainly the RPM is. My wager is that the small engine is much harder on oil.

 

[Bonz]

Fair enough, thanks for the post. I'm speaking from a position seeking information. Twice the RPM at a fraction of the torque or horsepower acting on the same viscosity index improvers wouldn't to my mind shear the viscosity index improvers more. The oil would shear as it does in any shared sump but not to the extent seen there in a quality oil such as HPL is designed to be, IMO. The higher RPM versus higher load, I would think the load and the pressure between the gears would be more of a factor in the bike I'm using as an example. But that's what I'm wanting to understand.

However the ninja 250 has a sump that holds 1.7 quarts, half the oil of the ZRX. For the sake of discussion, its doing twice the work in terms of oil volume but at a fraction of the load relative to my example of a ZRX 1200 that holds 3.3 quarts.

 

[shortyb]

Even with the massive fuel dilution, I think the Amsoil served you better in this engine. If you want to stick with HPL, I'd give them a cal and discuss the details of your UOA.

 

[thetricky]

Even with the massive fuel dilution, I think the Amsoil served you better in this engine. If you want to stick with HPL, I'd give them a cal and discuss the details of your UOA.

This is what I was thinking too, even though it was on a similar death spiral it seems it would hold up better.

Bonz, The only variables I can think of are that smaller sump and keeping it heavily loaded most times. Would be cool to do one long highway run on a fresh fill and test it, I bet it wouldn't be this bad.

 

[Bonz]

This is all good stuff. Keep up the Great discussion!

 

[fantastic]

Shared sump? If so I can understand the oil coming in lower viscosity. Perhaps that is a good reason to go with a motorcycle oil.

 

[Bonz]

Shared sump? If so I can understand the oil coming in lower viscosity. Perhaps that is a good reason to go with a motorcycle oil.

The oil was HPL 10w40 motorcycle oil. Says right on the analysis... the first oil on the analysis was Amsoil 10w40 metric motorcycle oil, said that in his second post. Ninja 250, been a shared sump since it was introduced in 1983 along with it's variants.

He mentioned 15w40 HDEO as something he may try, maybe that's where you got the idea he hadn't been running a motorcycle oil?

 

[fantastic]

The oil was HPL 10w40 motorcycle oil. Says right on the analysis... the first oil on the analysis was Amsoil 10w40 metric motorcycle oil, said that in his second post. Ninja 250, been a shared sump since it was introduced in 1983 along with it's variants.

Thanks! Would you agree it should do better for viscosity retention for just 2.9k on Motorcycle oil?

He mentioned 15w40 HDEO as something he may try, maybe that's where you got the idea he hadn't been running a motorcycle oil?

Precisely, My mistake & confused the 15w-40 as this sample. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[The_Sheriff]

No, the other one on there is Amsoil Metric 10w40. I'm with you, a bit surprised that HPL didn't hold it's own, and nothing changed in riding habits or the bike between Amsoil and the HPL. Now, to give the oil some credit, I ask for everything this motor has everytime I ride it. I weigh 220lbs and I usually ride at 9-13k RPM so I am not easy on the bike. Still, I was hoping for at least 4k OCI.

.
I’m very familiar with that bike as I once had one. I also had a Versys X300, same motor punched out and refined over the years. Great motors. I would suggest contacting HPL and let Dave know about this. I imagine he would be very interested in knowing.
.

 

[thetricky]

Thanks! Would you agree it should do better for viscosity retention for just 2.9k on Motorcycle oil?

Precisely, My mistake & confused the 15w-40 as this sample. Thanks for the clarification.

I agree it should really do better, especially with what we are seeing from HPL in other applications.

 

[jtwrace]

One could run Rotella T6 and get better results.

 

[4WD]

One could run Rotella T6 and get better results.

I knew this was coming

 

[Randol]

I have a KLX300 Dual Sport. I believe the engines are related. It only holds a bit over a quart with filter. I was reading that the Honda 450 DS has a 1000 mile oil change interval. I suspect these small high reving shared sump engines are rough on oil. Right now I'm running M1 motorcycle synthetic, no UOA yet.

 

[zrxkawboy]

I have a KLX300 Dual Sport. I believe the engines are related. It only holds a bit over a quart with filter.

Different engines. Yours is a single cylinder, while the Ninja 250R is a parallel twin; it holds nearly 2 qts with filter.

The KLX300 looks like a great bike. How do you like yours?

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Dave will probably tell you, truthfully, that such small sumps make it even harder on oil. Spends more time per volume doing work and less time shedding heat. Guarantee if this thing had a 4 quart capacity there would be a massive difference in what the oil looked like at the end of the OCI regardless of which oil you used.

Even using HPL HDEO 5w40 CC in my mom’s Briggs 12kW generator, because it only holds 1.3 quarts, Dave recommended 50-75 hour intervals. Calculating hours as speed, fhat works out to within just a few % of 2900 miles on 1.7 quarts at an average speed of 30mph on the bike.

Small sump capacities are known oil killers. It’s a fact of life, especially when the engine sees hard use.

 

[The_Sheriff]

Dave will probably tell you, truthfully, that such small sumps make it even harder on oil. Spends more time per volume doing work and less time shedding heat. Guarantee if this thing had a 4 quart capacity there would be a massive difference in what the oil looked like at the end of the OCI regardless of which oil you used.

Even using HPL HDEO 5w40 CC in my mom’s Briggs 12kW generator, because it only holds 1.3 quarts, Dave recommended 50-75 hour intervals. Calculating hours as speed, fhat works out to within just a few % of 2900 miles on 1.7 quarts at an average speed of 30mph on the bike.

Small sump capacities are known oil killers. It’s a fact of life, especially when the engine sees hard use.

.
So true. My RE 650 holds a full 4 quarts and is an understressed engine to begin with, so I plan on taking my HPL Moto/ATV 15w-50 the full 6,000 miles OCI.
.

 

[thetricky]

Dave will probably tell you, truthfully, that such small sumps make it even harder on oil. Spends more time per volume doing work and less time shedding heat. Guarantee if this thing had a 4 quart capacity there would be a massive difference in what the oil looked like at the end of the OCI regardless of which oil you used.

Even using HPL HDEO 5w40 CC in my mom’s Briggs 12kW generator, because it only holds 1.3 quarts, Dave recommended 50-75 hour intervals. Calculating hours as speed, fhat works out to within just a few % of 2900 miles on 1.7 quarts at an average speed of 30mph on the bike.

Small sump capacities are known oil killers. It’s a fact of life, especially when the engine sees hard use.

That’s where the conversation is going with him so far. I have no problem with 2k-2.5k mile changes, that’s a little under a year for me. Just good to know what my changes need to be.