So, in conclusion, I think ecores are a good design idea that's been poorly implemented, and lacks QA during manufacturing. I wouldn't recommend one as a result of my experience until some very basic changes are made to address the issues presented above.
2 x E-Core (shocker) , 20k+ Fram, P Classic - Pics
- Thread starter webfors
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Originally Posted By: labman
Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: labman
I say something smells.
Of? Elaborate!
Anybody that said what I think of this whole thread, should be banned.
Insightful stuff. Thanks for contributing.
Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: labman
I say something smells.
Of? Elaborate!
Anybody that said what I think of this whole thread, should be banned.
Insightful stuff. Thanks for contributing.
I do think there has to be a consideration for the media strength vs how well the center cage supports the media. Wider gaps and less folds and you need a stronger media and or tighter center cage spacing. I think the end caps come into play in adding rigidity to the media, or in the case of the fiber end caps and poor gluing not adding rigidity. Then you have to wonder if the combo bypass always works.
In short, the filter has to be looked at as a complete system-the media, end caps, bypass etc. It just seems the Ecore is lacking on all those fronts.
Have we ever seen a Purolator even blow a pinhole in the filter media like the Fram did let alone a window size hole like this ecore?
In short, the filter has to be looked at as a complete system-the media, end caps, bypass etc. It just seems the Ecore is lacking on all those fronts.
Have we ever seen a Purolator even blow a pinhole in the filter media like the Fram did let alone a window size hole like this ecore?
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Have we ever seen a Purolator even blow a pinhole like the Fram did in the filter media let alone a window size hole like this ecore?
No because it has the right supporting center tube that should be used!
Have we ever seen a Purolator even blow a pinhole like the Fram did in the filter media let alone a window size hole like this ecore?
No because it has the right supporting center tube that should be used!
Nothing extraordinary, unless a senior driven 2002 Saturn SL1 with regular 5k km (3.2k mile) oci's is out of the ordinary.
Again, I want to reiterate, evenly space the pleats in a tight arrangement the way the majority of the filter media is arranged, and properly seal the ends of the media with something other than a half-baked glue job, and the ecores are a decent filter. Don't do that, and you have the potential for a blow out due to flattening media against the plastic cage.
Again, I want to reiterate, evenly space the pleats in a tight arrangement the way the majority of the filter media is arranged, and properly seal the ends of the media with something other than a half-baked glue job, and the ecores are a decent filter. Don't do that, and you have the potential for a blow out due to flattening media against the plastic cage.
Originally Posted By: expat
I would like this to be brought to the attention of the manufacturer.
Yes, I see it as a possible design flaw.
Unless something extraordinary happened to that filter.
Manufacturers comments would be interesting!
I suppose I could attempt to contact the manufacturer. I'm really not motivated to spend time doing that to be honest. If one of you want to make first contact with these pics go for it. I'll gladly send the used and new PF53's I cut open for their evaluation.
It's not a mystery though. It's clear to me. But it would be interesting to hear their reply.
I would like this to be brought to the attention of the manufacturer.
Yes, I see it as a possible design flaw.
Unless something extraordinary happened to that filter.
Manufacturers comments would be interesting!
I suppose I could attempt to contact the manufacturer. I'm really not motivated to spend time doing that to be honest. If one of you want to make first contact with these pics go for it. I'll gladly send the used and new PF53's I cut open for their evaluation.
It's not a mystery though. It's clear to me. But it would be interesting to hear their reply.
OCOD>BCOD 
Originally Posted By: Texan4Life
I think your on to something webfors.
Imagine your table edge and paper scenario, but with wet hot paper.
unfortunately i think that square of media is in your engine. lets hope the oil pump chopped it up enough to let it pass through.
Flow goes like this:
sump->pump->filter->oil cooler(if equipped)-> engine
So it goes straight into the oil cooler / engine. If you're lucky, it gets stuck in a dead end (if those exist), if you're unlucky, it clogs a cam sprayer, or a main bearing.
So best case scenario is it falls apart right quick. Filter media isn't supposed to do that, is it?
I think your on to something webfors.
Imagine your table edge and paper scenario, but with wet hot paper.
unfortunately i think that square of media is in your engine. lets hope the oil pump chopped it up enough to let it pass through.
Flow goes like this:
sump->pump->filter->oil cooler(if equipped)-> engine
So it goes straight into the oil cooler / engine. If you're lucky, it gets stuck in a dead end (if those exist), if you're unlucky, it clogs a cam sprayer, or a main bearing.
So best case scenario is it falls apart right quick. Filter media isn't supposed to do that, is it?
I was looking at some ACDelco and Super Tech filters, also a cartridge Super Tech filter for the Ecotech. The media seem to have a lot of pleats and the media seem tough and the plastic cage didn't really seem to have all that wide window spacing. But you can't deny the pic:
As was touched on before I think the real problem with the Ecores is the pleats opens up as filters typically do after use and then you have the effect of a flate sheet of paper tearing on a table edge. If the filter had enough pleats to were it couldn't flatten out, and maybe stiff metal end caps would help, then this wouldn't happen. But the bottom line is the wide spacing of the cage can't support pleating that opens up.
I wonder how typical this filter tearing is? You don't notice it on the cartridge filters and it'd be easy to notice. I couldn't tell for sure but it appears the cage might be a little tighter spacing on the cartridge filter and the end caps seem more rigid.
As was touched on before I think the real problem with the Ecores is the pleats opens up as filters typically do after use and then you have the effect of a flate sheet of paper tearing on a table edge. If the filter had enough pleats to were it couldn't flatten out, and maybe stiff metal end caps would help, then this wouldn't happen. But the bottom line is the wide spacing of the cage can't support pleating that opens up.
I wonder how typical this filter tearing is? You don't notice it on the cartridge filters and it'd be easy to notice. I couldn't tell for sure but it appears the cage might be a little tighter spacing on the cartridge filter and the end caps seem more rigid.
As I mentioned in another thread, distortion may be cause by water. Filter media isn't made to have good wet strength. If you still have the oil uncontaminated, you send a sample in for analysis.
I have no idea how many filters I have cut open and never saw any pleats distorted or torn like that, although no Ecores As Gary would say, a unicorn or big foot.
I have no idea how many filters I have cut open and never saw any pleats distorted or torn like that, although no Ecores As Gary would say, a unicorn or big foot.
That possible. Maybe water causes more distortion than oil alone does. I think it's due to just normal operation and the filter not having enough surface are and pleat density. Add fiber end caps and the plastic cage's spacing becomes an issue.
The way I see it a filter shouldn't be prone to tearing the media regardless of fuel or water contamination. The big question remains is this a huge anomaly or common? I'm not convinced it is just a very rare occurrence. I see the potential problem is there.
The way I see it a filter shouldn't be prone to tearing the media regardless of fuel or water contamination. The big question remains is this a huge anomaly or common? I'm not convinced it is just a very rare occurrence. I see the potential problem is there.
I have seen this media fold multiple times in my operations but ONLY in fram-o-deaths and escares.
these filters should be pulled from the shelfs.
these filters should be pulled from the shelfs.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
It seems that fiber and cardboard end caps along with less media area and pleats results in the pleats unfolding. Throw in a cage with wide spacing and media tearing is the result.
Agreed, except I'm not convinced the fiber end caps have much to do with the issue. The real issue is large uneven spaces in the pleats. Throw in the ecore plastic center tube and you have a recipe for disaster. Both used PF53's flattened out and pressed against the cage in the same *exact* spot, which is where the media ends are glued together which also happens to be where the large uneven space is between the last couple of pleats, as shown in the *new* PF53 I cut open, specifically this pic:
If this area had tight even pleats like the rest of the filter I don't think the media would have flattened, and it certainly would not have ripped.
The issue here is the uneven distribution of the pleats where they glue the media together which leaves too large a space between the last few pleats.
Of course, if you have a solid center tube this is less of an issue. So the quality of the spacing between the pleats and the quality of the media is critical when using an ecore center tube in order for the integrity of the media to withstand the normal pressures expected of a filter.
Reminds me of the saying "a chain is only as strong as its' weakest link".
It seems that fiber and cardboard end caps along with less media area and pleats results in the pleats unfolding. Throw in a cage with wide spacing and media tearing is the result.
Agreed, except I'm not convinced the fiber end caps have much to do with the issue. The real issue is large uneven spaces in the pleats. Throw in the ecore plastic center tube and you have a recipe for disaster. Both used PF53's flattened out and pressed against the cage in the same *exact* spot, which is where the media ends are glued together which also happens to be where the large uneven space is between the last couple of pleats, as shown in the *new* PF53 I cut open, specifically this pic:
If this area had tight even pleats like the rest of the filter I don't think the media would have flattened, and it certainly would not have ripped.
The issue here is the uneven distribution of the pleats where they glue the media together which leaves too large a space between the last few pleats.
Of course, if you have a solid center tube this is less of an issue. So the quality of the spacing between the pleats and the quality of the media is critical when using an ecore center tube in order for the integrity of the media to withstand the normal pressures expected of a filter.
Reminds me of the saying "a chain is only as strong as its' weakest link".
My experience with ST ecores has not been similar to your's at all.
I have used ST#3614 several times (once within the last year) on Tacoma for ~5k and cut a couple open. Like many posted here before the pleats looked uniform and endcaps looked just fine. I also cut open a Mighty Plus ecore installed by quick lube on a Civic with ~5k and it too looked just fine.
Perhaps it's your particular application(s), I don't know. While the combo valve is not my favorite design/first choice, and I prefer the non ecore ST (#7317), I'd have no issues running and ecore again for $2.87. I'd certainly choose it over the orange can.
Not really defending the ecore just telling my experience. That said, with all the reasonably priced metal endcaps/centertube and separate bypass designs out there, the ecore wouldn't be my first choice either.
fyi, since it was mentioned what to cut the oil filters open with, I have the 1 cutting wheel Summit which works but not as great on the, stores (not catalog) has an exhaust pipe cutter identical to the one below on special or closeout for $14.99 add a 20% discount coupon and you got a nice 4wheel cutter for
I have used ST#3614 several times (once within the last year) on Tacoma for ~5k and cut a couple open. Like many posted here before the pleats looked uniform and endcaps looked just fine. I also cut open a Mighty Plus ecore installed by quick lube on a Civic with ~5k and it too looked just fine.
Perhaps it's your particular application(s), I don't know. While the combo valve is not my favorite design/first choice, and I prefer the non ecore ST (#7317), I'd have no issues running and ecore again for $2.87. I'd certainly choose it over the orange can.
Not really defending the ecore just telling my experience. That said, with all the reasonably priced metal endcaps/centertube and separate bypass designs out there, the ecore wouldn't be my first choice either.
fyi, since it was mentioned what to cut the oil filters open with, I have the 1 cutting wheel Summit which works but not as great on the, stores (not catalog) has an exhaust pipe cutter identical to the one below on special or closeout for $14.99 add a 20% discount coupon and you got a nice 4wheel cutter for
That filter just SCREAMS...."im inferior don't run me!"
This points out how little we actually know about what goes on inside filters in real world use. Why did that particular portion blow out? How durable is flattened media after prolonged use? Is media more important than design and construction? Of course the big question is really what, if any, good does an oil filter do? Bob, the original oil guy, did some pretty convincing tests that showed oil filters aren't really necessary. Lot's of older vehicles went long distances and long intervals with no oil filters, and even some current machines don't have much in the way of filtration (Honda Rebel motorcycles come to mind, along with many outboards). I ran a 9.9 HP Yamaha outboard for many thousands of hours and it only had a very crude oil screen and no air filter whatsoever. Changed engine oil every 100 hours or so (equivalent to 5-7500 mile OCIs), with the engine routinely run at WOT for hours at a time. Even after several thousand hours of use, the engine did not burn any significant amounts of oil and it only held one quart so I would have noticed. Maybe those stainless steel screen filters with something like 20-40 micron holes are really better as the only necessary function is to catch gross pieces of junk floating around, and flow is really more important than filtering.
Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
This points out how little we actually know about what goes on inside filters in real world use. Why did that particular portion blow out? How durable is flattened media after prolonged use? Is media more important than design and construction? Of course the big question is really what, if any, good does an oil filter do?
Most thos Q's have been answerd in this thread.
This points out how little we actually know about what goes on inside filters in real world use. Why did that particular portion blow out? How durable is flattened media after prolonged use? Is media more important than design and construction? Of course the big question is really what, if any, good does an oil filter do?
Most thos Q's have been answerd in this thread.
In some minds. Others wonder why so many Ecores hold up fine and that one didn't. It doesn't add up. To ignore a coolant leak or excessive condensation and blame it on the Ecore would be a mistake. I would be getting a sample off to Blackstone.
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