A few more pics for ya (E-cores too)

[lubeowner]

Well we are starting to get lots of the E-cores that have been in the field back in. Not too impressive. While I have cut apart several with no problems we are still seeing quite a few with pleats that have separated from the resin end caps. What is happening is the media is distorting and tearing away, and in others it looks like it never took hold to the resin when manufactured. The pics show this pretty well.

The Ph400's (3600) are showing an alarming rate of failure. I have included several pics of some PH400 Champs cut open over the past 4 days. Many PH253's (4670) are having the same problems, with caved in pleats, or holes blown through the inside corners of the media. There is 2 pics of PH253's.

I do want to emphasize that these filters were all off of newer cars, in fact two of the Ph400's in the pics were off of a 2000, and 2001 Ford Escort.

None of these filters were on sludgebuckets either and I think that it is evident in the pics that the filters are not crudded up and don't have black gooey oil on them. I am not even bothering to cut open long drain filters or filters that come off of junkers because some here blame all filter failures on these reasons. I have made an interesting conclusion during this study though now that we have cut about 300 filters open. The media in the Champs that are having the failures is thin and becomes extremely brittle after use. Then you will cut open more of the same part # and the media looks totally different, it is thick, evenly spaced, and is even a lighter color. If you look at the top of the filter for the Lot#, etc. the font size is different between them. This has me puzzled. It seems that there may be a big difference in quality between assembly plants?

I did find a PureOne yesterday that had one loose pleat that had come off both top and bottom caps. This is the first Purolator I have seen with any damage. Sorry no pic but it was put into the crusher on accident.

We have pretty much quit looking at the Fram's and it's many clones because the results are usually the same. Crap ADBV, holes, and heavy distortion.

I will provide the link to my pics, if someone wants to copy them to this post feel free. Enjoy.
Link To pics

 

[Gary Allan]

Thank you very much lubeowner!

 

[Gary Allan]

 

[Gary Allan]

 

[drive it forever]

This needs to get passed on to the manufacturers Q/A and engineering dept.

 

[Ironduke4]

Very interesting photos lubeowner! I was leary of the ecore design the first time i saw a photo of one cut open on BITOG.
It is the endcaps that concerned me but i wonder if the problems with the ecores are due to quality control issues and not the design itself? As far as oil filters used in extended drain situations i would recomend replacement of the oil filter at 3k mile intervals because some of your photos support my thoughts that oil filters deteriorate when used for too long.
I feel a standard $2-$4 oil filter should be used no more than 3k miles and should then be changed even if the oil would be good for 15000 miles just change the filter at 3k mile intervals and top off the oil. Premium $5 and up filters would probably go at least 5 or 6k miles maybe more as the more expensive filters are made better with better materials.

 

[kevz]

Wow, you are scaring us with these pics but, when I cut open my own filters, I never see the media collapse and tear like that.

My OCI are 3-6k depending on driving habits and conditions.

 

[C4Dave]

I really appreciate the time and trouble you are taking to document these failures. A few weeks ago I put an e-core filter (ST 3600) on my 77,000 mile Taurus at the start of an AutoRx clean cycle. I may have made a mistake. Should I put on another filter? AutoRx does most of the sludge removal during the "rinse" cycle, so maybe it won't matter too much right now.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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This needs to get passed on to the manufacturers Q/A and engineering dept.

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I sent a link of the big thread to Champ. I dunno who's going to look at it ..but maybe someone will chime in from them (doubtful)

[email protected]

After cutting a few filters apart...I too appreciate the amount of time that lubeowner consumes to bring this to us. This is after or during a day of work in the same environment. Not something most of us would easily find time to do.

quote:

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Wow, you are scaring us with these pics but, when I cut open my own filters, I never see the media collapse and tear like that.

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Well, he's scared a few people ..

..but I haven't seen it in any of my Champs either ..so I don't think it's a "defect" per se` ..but a level of quality that has been exceeded by the needs of the user in the service that they subject it to. This may fall into "manufacturer recommendations".

It's the insideous nature of it being hidden in the can that bothers us the most. As others have mentioned ..if it was tires or any other item that you could track the wearout rate ..it wouldn't bother you.

[ April 01, 2005, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[jthorner]

quote:

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..but a level of quality that has been exceeded by the needs of the user in the service that they subject it to. This may fall into "manufacturer recommendations".

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I do not buy that argument at all. Honda, for example, calls for oil changes every 10,000 miles and filter changes every 20,000 miles on their recent model 4-cylinder cars. Champion claims that their filters meet or exceed original equipment manufacturer requirements. Thus a Champion filter needs to hold up for 20,000 mile OCIs, at least when fitted to a Honda.

Also remember that the people going to lubeowner's shop are the ones who *are* getting the car's oil changed and that he says he has specifically stopped cutting open filters from the high OCI, abused vehicles. The bad maintenance excuse is a dog that don't hunt no more.

quote:

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. I have made an interesting conclusion during this study though now that we have cut about 300 filters open. The media in the Champs that are having the failures is thin and becomes extremely brittle after use. Then you will cut open more of the same part # and the media looks totally different, it is thick, evenly spaced, and is even a lighter color. If you look at the top of the filter for the Lot#, etc. the font size is different between them. This has me puzzled. It seems that there may be a big difference in quality between assembly plants?

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That is an interesting observation and squares with the fact that other casual Champ users who have opened a few filters have not seen the problems you are seeing. Even within a plant there are probably multiple assembly lines, etc.

Hopefully someone at Champion will take a real interest in what you are seeing and try to get to the bottom of it along with taking corrective actions. You real have my manufacturing engineering instincts going (which is where I made my living for many years).

I am rather happy that after reading BITOG I standardized on Wix, Baldwin & Mann filters. I don't want to spend money on an oil filter just to have it degrade in use.


John

[ April 01, 2005, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: jthorner ]

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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The bad maintenance excuse is a dog that don't hunt no more.

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Again, lubeowner has just said that some are off of newer vehicles and that they were not sludgebuckets. This is hardly material proof. There are dozens ..probably thousands of salemen type that don't change the oil ..but merely add it until they "get time" to hit a quick lube operation. Many cars are on lease. The owners, if savvy enough ...merely fullfill their obligations under the max OCI/service ...regardless of their service duty ..figuring that they won't have to deal with anything in the limited duration of their use.

You're also just seeing the failed ones. You don't know how many were'nt damaged. This may add up to .05% for all we know.

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

Thanks for sharing these Lubeowner.

I did experience extremely weak media in a used STP oil filter I used for
By the way I did cut open a used M-1 filter a couple years ago and the media was not significantly weakened. Makes sense...media is the most expensive component of the filter and resin is the most expensive part of the media...so that would be the easiest place to cut cost. M1 proves they CAN make a decent filter but I refuse to give my money to a company that pushes marginal products as acceptable.

[ April 01, 2005, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Jason Troxell ]

 

[T-Keith]

Those filters look dirtier then anything I have from my cars even with 5k oil changes.

-T

 

[Triple_Se7en]

I agree with T-Keith!

I would like to know the OCIs of those filter engines.

Those pics also tell me that there's nothing wrong with the Ecores. A little element-flapping is not un-common.

I'm not throwing away my two new SuperTech Ecore filters... not yet.

 

[jthorner]

quote:

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Those pics also tell me that there's nothing wrong with the Ecores. A little element-flapping is not un-common

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So are you saying that the filter element separating from the end caps in normal use is something you consider acceptable quality? I sure don't see it that way.

John

 

[Steve S]

May be Encores are the competition for the lowest quality Frams.

 

[lubeowner]

quote:

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Those pics also tell me that there's nothing wrong with the Ecores. A little element-flapping is not un-common

quote:

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So are you saying that the filter element separating from the end caps in normal use is something you consider acceptable quality? I sure don't see it that way.

I am with you jt. The element flapping is just what I posted with the pics of the e-cores. Pull outward slightly on the flapping element and presto, you can see right into the center tube! Not what I would call good filtering.

For those that think the oil is dark and dirty, most of this is due to lighting. The filters look much darker in the pics. Again, I made sure that all of these filters were off returning customers cars that were not run way overdue on OCI and were using 5w30 or 10w30 oil per manufacturer recommendations.

BTW, our supplier is sending a UPS call tag for 20lbs. worth of blown filters so I will be sending him in a good pile of them next week. They will be observed and then sent to Champ, for observation and testing. I will keep you all posted on the results. We also just got our first PH8A e-cores today. Boy are they small. Just a bit longer than the 4670's. They also told me today that the e-cores have undergone a gasket material change already due to leakage problems. They have gone to a softer rubber, which starting shipping today.

I was all set to switch to Wix but am holding off until I talk to the Purolator folks next week. The supplier here is really proud of their Wix filters, my price is looking like $3.30-$8.00 per filter, even buying by the case in lots of $200+ filters at a time. Most of the Champs we are sourcing between $1.59 to $5.00. This is turning into a headache fast.

I have gone ahead and switched the rest of our heavy duty diesel filters over to Fleetguard, and not a moment too soon. I cut one of our Luber-Finer/Champs open today from a 7.3 Powerstroke Diesel and the media had come loose from the baseplate endcap on about 1/3 of the filter. For some reason some of these 7.3L Champ filters seem to be turning to mush after about 4500 miles. The media literally falls apart if you barely pull on it. I have not seen this phenomenon with any of the Motorcraft, Fleetguard, or Wix for the same application.

 

[OdinsRage]

darn i noticed when i had a valucraft e-core on my car it was leaking around the gasket even when tightened hard!

 

[nascarnation]

great work & thanks for the reports
no substitute for field testing

OTOH I'm becoming more convinced all the time that with a properly running engine the filter may be only of marginal value

 

[doitmyself]

Lubeowner,

My workplace buys most of their filters at discount from NAPA (Only a few hundred a year, 200-300 max.). I get my personal filters there at the same discount. When I asked the manager how he could sell them so cheap, he told me that NAPA corp. gives him money back to make up some of the difference (and attract big customers).

Example: Dodge caravan oil filter - "list" is $9.88, my "consumer joe" price is $5.75, and my "workplace" discount price is $3.65.

Air filter: List $22.96, regular $16.00+/-, and with my discount $8.04.

These are the "gold" series, which he says he can discount more. And, of course, the list price is probably only paid by people going to service garages.

Just maybe, you can get a better deal for Wix filters through NAPA because of their volume purchases.

Good luck and thanks for your input.