ls1mike
$50 Site Donor 2024
40:1 (or close to it.) in my stuff. Never a problem. Weed eater, Chain saw, leaf blower.
2 stroke equipment mix ratio
- Thread starter alex_at
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In your situation I would just run 40:1 in everything and worry about more important things in life.
gathermewool
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted by Dave9
Originally Posted by gathermewool
Like I said, all I have to go on is my manual and the etherwebs. I trusted the arborist site members and where ever else seemed legit when I researched this last year.
Do you know of any 1:50 failures in MODERN equipment (eg, last 15 years)? Seriously, not being sarcastic.
... and the etherwebs, are also where there are just as many old hands which won't run 1:50.
Yes I know of 1:50 failures. Most consumer grade 2 cycles made 10+ years ago have failed already unless they hardly saw any use, so it's not find one, it's find one that didn't. If you use a contractor grade tool (engine) in a consumer duty cycle, then it can take years longer to notice the difference, but then you are paying a premium for it.
Consider the issue. Engines ran fine on 1:32 and 1:40 then there is the belief that by virtue of modern lubricants working better, the ratio can be reduced, which is just cancelling out much of that benefit. They're trying to suggest the least amount of oil necessary to make the lifespan long enough to satisfy the warranty and consumer demand, not to make the equipment run as long as possible.
Modern engines are much pickier about fuel, running lean smoothly. This is a step backwards in order to pollute less. At least there is that good, achieved goal instead of some conspiracy theory that they just want the equipment to wear out sooner to sell more, but ultimately it is the consumer choosing whether they want it cleaner running or longer lasting bearings. A dirty exhaust port you can clean, and I suppose you can replace bearings too, so the main thing is to recognize the trade-offs.
Very well said.
Questions:
1. What's the failure mode of 1:50. Do they simply seize up? Loose compression?
2. Haven't modern oils gotten better?
3. When was lean burn implemented?
4. Are engines being built similarly to, say, 20 years ago, or are they built to more restrictive tolerances?
5. What about allowances? Why not state something like, "1:40 is allowed in cases where 1:50 isn't available", like some manufacturers allow alternative oils to that spec'd?
I'd happily run 40:1 in my consumer-use equipment if enough anecdotal evidence of detriment in running 1:50 could be produced. I haven't seen it thus far.
Originally Posted by gathermewool
Like I said, all I have to go on is my manual and the etherwebs. I trusted the arborist site members and where ever else seemed legit when I researched this last year.
Do you know of any 1:50 failures in MODERN equipment (eg, last 15 years)? Seriously, not being sarcastic.
... and the etherwebs, are also where there are just as many old hands which won't run 1:50.
Yes I know of 1:50 failures. Most consumer grade 2 cycles made 10+ years ago have failed already unless they hardly saw any use, so it's not find one, it's find one that didn't. If you use a contractor grade tool (engine) in a consumer duty cycle, then it can take years longer to notice the difference, but then you are paying a premium for it.
Consider the issue. Engines ran fine on 1:32 and 1:40 then there is the belief that by virtue of modern lubricants working better, the ratio can be reduced, which is just cancelling out much of that benefit. They're trying to suggest the least amount of oil necessary to make the lifespan long enough to satisfy the warranty and consumer demand, not to make the equipment run as long as possible.
Modern engines are much pickier about fuel, running lean smoothly. This is a step backwards in order to pollute less. At least there is that good, achieved goal instead of some conspiracy theory that they just want the equipment to wear out sooner to sell more, but ultimately it is the consumer choosing whether they want it cleaner running or longer lasting bearings. A dirty exhaust port you can clean, and I suppose you can replace bearings too, so the main thing is to recognize the trade-offs.
Very well said.
Questions:
1. What's the failure mode of 1:50. Do they simply seize up? Loose compression?
2. Haven't modern oils gotten better?
3. When was lean burn implemented?
4. Are engines being built similarly to, say, 20 years ago, or are they built to more restrictive tolerances?
5. What about allowances? Why not state something like, "1:40 is allowed in cases where 1:50 isn't available", like some manufacturers allow alternative oils to that spec'd?
I'd happily run 40:1 in my consumer-use equipment if enough anecdotal evidence of detriment in running 1:50 could be produced. I haven't seen it thus far.
I've used 40:1 mix since the day of my very first tool and never had any engine related failures. I used only 92 octane e10 fuel and various brands of oils. Only issue i had was then I tried using TruFuel in one of my saws (MS260) and it was running very poor. Bogging down, slow on the trigger and would randomly shut off at idle. Dump that out and put my mix in and it ran perfect.
Lately I've been adding 1oz of MMO to the mix to see if it changes anything and so far I haven't noticed much. When I just start running that mix I noticed a little more smoke , but it is gone now. Maybe it was burning off crud? I don't know. Exhaust smells a little sweet'er now...... I kind of like it.
Lately I've been adding 1oz of MMO to the mix to see if it changes anything and so far I haven't noticed much. When I just start running that mix I noticed a little more smoke , but it is gone now. Maybe it was burning off crud? I don't know. Exhaust smells a little sweet'er now...... I kind of like it.
Originally Posted by gathermewool
1. What's the failure mode of 1:50. Do they simply seize up? Loose compression?
The usual problem is the bearings wear till they wobble so much that there is no way to keep the magneto close enough to generate spark, yet not rub on the flywheel.
1. What's the failure mode of 1:50. Do they simply seize up? Loose compression?
The usual problem is the bearings wear till they wobble so much that there is no way to keep the magneto close enough to generate spark, yet not rub on the flywheel.
I run 32:1 in everything. My first Craftsman weed eater lasted 25 years without a motor teardown and was still running when I threw it away, the shaft broke and my wife bought me a Echo.
I bought it when we first got married and so she knew how old it was. I have a bunch of two strokes, 32:1, never leaner than 40:1 would I suggest.
I bought it when we first got married and so she knew how old it was. I have a bunch of two strokes, 32:1, never leaner than 40:1 would I suggest.
Originally Posted by Dave9
Originally Posted by gathermewool
Like I said, all I have to go on is my manual and the etherwebs. I trusted the arborist site members and where ever else seemed legit when I researched this last year.
Do you know of any 1:50 failures in MODERN equipment (eg, last 15 years)? Seriously, not being sarcastic.
... and the etherwebs, are also where there are just as many old hands which won't run 1:50.
Yes I know of 1:50 failures. Most consumer grade 2 cycles made 10+ years ago have failed already unless they hardly saw any use, so it's not find one, it's find one that didn't. If you use a contractor grade tool (engine) in a consumer duty cycle, then it can take years longer to notice the difference, but then you are paying a premium for it.
Consider the issue. Engines ran fine on 1:32 and 1:40 then there is the belief that by virtue of modern lubricants working better, the ratio can be reduced, which is just cancelling out much of that benefit. They're trying to suggest the least amount of oil necessary to make the lifespan long enough to satisfy the warranty and consumer demand, not to make the equipment run as long as possible.
Modern engines are much pickier about fuel, running lean smoothly. This is a step backwards in order to pollute less. At least there is that good, achieved goal instead of some conspiracy theory that they just want the equipment to wear out sooner to sell more, but ultimately it is the consumer choosing whether they want it cleaner running or longer lasting bearings. A dirty exhaust port you can clean, and I suppose you can replace bearings too, so the main thing is to recognize the trade-offs.
You completely obscured the issue. Yes, modern 2 cycle oils really are better and using more oil than a 50:1 mix provides is a waste of oil and will not make a engine last longer. It has nothing to do with warranties and polluting less is irrelevant.
Now, are the engines you refer to plain bearing or needle bearing?
The only time a richer mix than 50.1 is required is if the engine contains plain bearings or is run at a very high RPM. Needle bearings require only a very small amount of oil and 50:1 supplies more than enough lubrication here as well as for the piston and rings.
Originally Posted by gathermewool
Like I said, all I have to go on is my manual and the etherwebs. I trusted the arborist site members and where ever else seemed legit when I researched this last year.
Do you know of any 1:50 failures in MODERN equipment (eg, last 15 years)? Seriously, not being sarcastic.
... and the etherwebs, are also where there are just as many old hands which won't run 1:50.
Yes I know of 1:50 failures. Most consumer grade 2 cycles made 10+ years ago have failed already unless they hardly saw any use, so it's not find one, it's find one that didn't. If you use a contractor grade tool (engine) in a consumer duty cycle, then it can take years longer to notice the difference, but then you are paying a premium for it.
Consider the issue. Engines ran fine on 1:32 and 1:40 then there is the belief that by virtue of modern lubricants working better, the ratio can be reduced, which is just cancelling out much of that benefit. They're trying to suggest the least amount of oil necessary to make the lifespan long enough to satisfy the warranty and consumer demand, not to make the equipment run as long as possible.
Modern engines are much pickier about fuel, running lean smoothly. This is a step backwards in order to pollute less. At least there is that good, achieved goal instead of some conspiracy theory that they just want the equipment to wear out sooner to sell more, but ultimately it is the consumer choosing whether they want it cleaner running or longer lasting bearings. A dirty exhaust port you can clean, and I suppose you can replace bearings too, so the main thing is to recognize the trade-offs.
You completely obscured the issue. Yes, modern 2 cycle oils really are better and using more oil than a 50:1 mix provides is a waste of oil and will not make a engine last longer. It has nothing to do with warranties and polluting less is irrelevant.
Now, are the engines you refer to plain bearing or needle bearing?
The only time a richer mix than 50.1 is required is if the engine contains plain bearings or is run at a very high RPM. Needle bearings require only a very small amount of oil and 50:1 supplies more than enough lubrication here as well as for the piston and rings.
I was running Amsoil Saber at 40:1 in everything I own. From my 45 and 47 year old Lawn Boys, my 10 year old cheapie Poulan weed eater, my Echo CS370 chainsaw, and my new Hitachi leaf blower. I do get a good bit of smoke out of the exhaust with everything. But I will be running my Lawn Boys at 32:1 using Pennzoil XLF outboard oil, and bumping the Amsoil up to 50:1. Even the Poulan still starts and runs like a wild animal. The Lawn Boys are going with the XLF because it's formulated for older engines and I mow every week with them.
L8R,
Matt
L8R,
Matt
gathermewool
Site Donor 2023
Oh, one more source for 50:1, other than the owner's manual and some people on the etherwebs: my local OPE dealer and mechanics. They follow the manual and haven't reported any issues using modern 50:1 in 50:1 applications.
Because neither of them is PRO user.....
Any still....any serious 2stroke debate I encounered on a www with professional users got to the point that 32:1 offers best p/p ratio....
Any still....any serious 2stroke debate I encounered on a www with professional users got to the point that 32:1 offers best p/p ratio....
gathermewool
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted by Kamele0N
Because neither of them is PRO user.....
Any still....any serious 2stroke debate I encounered on a www with professional users got to the point that 32:1 offers best p/p ratio....
How do you know they don't service pros' equipment?
Do you think it makes a diff to go richer (oil-wise, I mean) for those of us who only put, say, 50 hrs/season on some of our 2-stroke equipment? By this, I mean someone who will NOT be putting a piece of equipment out on the street, because it needs a new spark plug (ie, someone like me, who can do all basic and routine maintenance).
I'm still perplexed as to why the manu. doesn't allow for richer mixtures for certain...let's call it "severe service". The commercial warranty is less than half the time as that for NON-commercial, anyway.
Because neither of them is PRO user.....
Any still....any serious 2stroke debate I encounered on a www with professional users got to the point that 32:1 offers best p/p ratio....
How do you know they don't service pros' equipment?
Do you think it makes a diff to go richer (oil-wise, I mean) for those of us who only put, say, 50 hrs/season on some of our 2-stroke equipment? By this, I mean someone who will NOT be putting a piece of equipment out on the street, because it needs a new spark plug (ie, someone like me, who can do all basic and routine maintenance).
I'm still perplexed as to why the manu. doesn't allow for richer mixtures for certain...let's call it "severe service". The commercial warranty is less than half the time as that for NON-commercial, anyway.
Originally Posted by AnthemBassMan
I was running Amsoil Saber at 40:1 in everything I own. From my 45 and 47 year old Lawn Boys, my 10 year old cheapie Poulan weed eater, my Echo CS370 chainsaw, and my new Hitachi leaf blower. I do get a good bit of smoke out of the exhaust with everything. But I will be running my Lawn Boys at 32:1 using Pennzoil XLF outboard oil, and bumping the Amsoil up to 50:1. Even the Poulan still starts and runs like a wild animal. The Lawn Boys are going with the XLF because it's formulated for older engines and I mow every week with them.
L8R,
Matt
Outboard oil in OPE? Do you go fishing ON your Echo chainsaw? Maybe water skiing on one of your Lawn Boy mowers?
slomo
I was running Amsoil Saber at 40:1 in everything I own. From my 45 and 47 year old Lawn Boys, my 10 year old cheapie Poulan weed eater, my Echo CS370 chainsaw, and my new Hitachi leaf blower. I do get a good bit of smoke out of the exhaust with everything. But I will be running my Lawn Boys at 32:1 using Pennzoil XLF outboard oil, and bumping the Amsoil up to 50:1. Even the Poulan still starts and runs like a wild animal. The Lawn Boys are going with the XLF because it's formulated for older engines and I mow every week with them.
L8R,
Matt
Outboard oil in OPE? Do you go fishing ON your Echo chainsaw? Maybe water skiing on one of your Lawn Boy mowers?
slomo
I am from a different continent.....but thanks to BITOG I know that some 2stroke equipement over the pond has TCW-3 oils in their manuals....
Dunno why exactly...if it is aircooled engine....I would run FC/FD oils in it anyway (over the TCW-3 spec)
Dunno why exactly...if it is aircooled engine....I would run FC/FD oils in it anyway (over the TCW-3 spec)
Originally Posted by slomo
Originally Posted by AnthemBassMan
I was running Amsoil Saber at 40:1 in everything I own. From my 45 and 47 year old Lawn Boys, my 10 year old cheapie Poulan weed eater, my Echo CS370 chainsaw, and my new Hitachi leaf blower. I do get a good bit of smoke out of the exhaust with everything. But I will be running my Lawn Boys at 32:1 using Pennzoil XLF outboard oil, and bumping the Amsoil up to 50:1. Even the Poulan still starts and runs like a wild animal. The Lawn Boys are going with the XLF because it's formulated for older engines and I mow every week with them.
L8R,
Matt
Outboard oil in OPE? Do you go fishing ON your Echo chainsaw? Maybe water skiing on one of your Lawn Boy mowers?
slomo
Yup!
Actually Lawn Boy recommended TCW-3 oil if you don't use their own oil. Gotta remember that before Toro bought out Lawn Boy, they were a division of OMC. Outdoor Marine Corporation. But I still use Saber in my saw, trimmer, and blower. Not using the outboard oil in those.
L8R,
Matt
Originally Posted by AnthemBassMan
I was running Amsoil Saber at 40:1 in everything I own. From my 45 and 47 year old Lawn Boys, my 10 year old cheapie Poulan weed eater, my Echo CS370 chainsaw, and my new Hitachi leaf blower. I do get a good bit of smoke out of the exhaust with everything. But I will be running my Lawn Boys at 32:1 using Pennzoil XLF outboard oil, and bumping the Amsoil up to 50:1. Even the Poulan still starts and runs like a wild animal. The Lawn Boys are going with the XLF because it's formulated for older engines and I mow every week with them.
L8R,
Matt
Outboard oil in OPE? Do you go fishing ON your Echo chainsaw? Maybe water skiing on one of your Lawn Boy mowers?
slomo
Yup!
L8R,
Matt
Lawnboys have a lot of fins on the cylinder. They are only 3200 RPM. I use mine for trimming and leaf mulching. No port plugging, some still liquid oil in the muffler. 79model only electronic ignitions and wheels in all those years.
Rod
Rod
Originally Posted by ragtoplvr
Lawnboys have a lot of fins on the cylinder. They are only 3200 RPM. I use mine for trimming and leaf mulching. No port plugging, some still liquid oil in the muffler. 79model only electronic ignitions and wheels in all those years.
Rod
I have a 1973 7262 and a 1975 5024 Bricktop. I use them to mow every week alternating which one I use.
L8R,
Matt
Lawnboys have a lot of fins on the cylinder. They are only 3200 RPM. I use mine for trimming and leaf mulching. No port plugging, some still liquid oil in the muffler. 79model only electronic ignitions and wheels in all those years.
Rod
I have a 1973 7262 and a 1975 5024 Bricktop. I use them to mow every week alternating which one I use.
L8R,
Matt
My old lawnboy, the 64 year old one, that STILL runs perfectly, has plain bearings. It gets 24 to 1 one or more. Burn about a gallon of gas a year.
My new lawnboy, the 79, gets 40 to one with a splash of mmo. It also runs perfectly.
Rod
My new lawnboy, the 79, gets 40 to one with a splash of mmo. It also runs perfectly.
Rod
My guess is that in North America the main problem with 2 stroke fuel is the octane rating and use of Ethanol for octane boosting.The likes of Husqvarna and Stihl both recommend the use of a minimum octane rating of 90 and preferably no Ethanol.In my experience if you are using an industry oil ie;Husqvarna,Stihl or Echo,50-1 is the best ratio to use.For most engines you don't even need the synthetic oils like Stihl Ultra,Most of my cusomers use Stihl HP at 50-1 with very good results.
I use regular 87 mixed at 50:1 and never have a problem