1996 Toyota Avalon 1MZ-FE V6 Engine Sludge Dilemna
- Thread starter Jonness
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geez im gettin worried, maybe i'll drop my oil pan next oil change. There was a lil sludge in mine 2 yrs ago at 85k miles when i did the valve covers, i wonder at 122k mile what it looks like
Jonness,
Once again, thanks for the excellent documentation.
As for the AutoRx oil/filter from the clean phase, yours appears normal from my experience with it. The way AutoRx works is kinda weird in a logic type of way. I had expected the clean phase to be dirtier than the rinse phase. Just makes sense to me. But on both of my vehicles, the rinse phase was definitely dirtier than the clean. There was a significant difference between my clean and rinse filters on both vehicles. And seeing the black "flakes" in the bottom of the filter can, and built up in the creases of the filter material was unnerving.
My two vehicles (an '88 Nissan pickup and '97 Nissan Maxima) both got treatments. Both had minor leaks around valve covers, which have since been stopped (AutoRx doesn't claim to stop gasket leaks, so maybe this was coincidence). The '88 had a main seal leak, which is now gone. But the difference in their filters stumped me. The '88 is high mileage (180,00+), and maintenance on it has consisted of Castrol GTX about every 3000 miles. The Maxima was just over 100,000 miles, and has had a majority of synthetics, and some GTX, mainly at 3000 miles (but two Mobil 1 OCI's of 4000 miles). The Maxima's filters were much dirtier than the pickups. It was actually shocking to see the difference. I guess this shows that different engines have different maintenance needs, and even some higher mileage ones can be cleaner than "pampered" lower mileage engines.
I actually think your rinse stage will show even more stuff. But keep going with it. The Avalon is a nice car, so it is worth it. It may take multiple treatments to get it "pristine". Mine will probably be getting treatments again just for peace of mind. And I wouldn't hesitate to use AutoRx on any used car I buy just to be sure I'm starting with a clean slate.
Dave
Once again, thanks for the excellent documentation.
As for the AutoRx oil/filter from the clean phase, yours appears normal from my experience with it. The way AutoRx works is kinda weird in a logic type of way. I had expected the clean phase to be dirtier than the rinse phase. Just makes sense to me. But on both of my vehicles, the rinse phase was definitely dirtier than the clean. There was a significant difference between my clean and rinse filters on both vehicles. And seeing the black "flakes" in the bottom of the filter can, and built up in the creases of the filter material was unnerving.
My two vehicles (an '88 Nissan pickup and '97 Nissan Maxima) both got treatments. Both had minor leaks around valve covers, which have since been stopped (AutoRx doesn't claim to stop gasket leaks, so maybe this was coincidence). The '88 had a main seal leak, which is now gone. But the difference in their filters stumped me. The '88 is high mileage (180,00+), and maintenance on it has consisted of Castrol GTX about every 3000 miles. The Maxima was just over 100,000 miles, and has had a majority of synthetics, and some GTX, mainly at 3000 miles (but two Mobil 1 OCI's of 4000 miles). The Maxima's filters were much dirtier than the pickups. It was actually shocking to see the difference. I guess this shows that different engines have different maintenance needs, and even some higher mileage ones can be cleaner than "pampered" lower mileage engines.
I actually think your rinse stage will show even more stuff. But keep going with it. The Avalon is a nice car, so it is worth it. It may take multiple treatments to get it "pristine". Mine will probably be getting treatments again just for peace of mind. And I wouldn't hesitate to use AutoRx on any used car I buy just to be sure I'm starting with a clean slate.
Dave
I'm at 1500 miles on the first auto-rx rinse phase. Here is a picture of the oil on the dipstick. It's a bit overexposed.
Here is what the filter looks like. Once again the flash on my camera is messing up the appearance of the filter. There is junk in it in the very bottom of the folds. The bright spots look like gunk, but really they are just camera flash. But if you look in the very bottom of the folds in the portions where no flash glare is present, you can see the stuff that is laying in there (in the very tip of the inner crease). Sorry for not giving better pictures, but my life is extremely busy right now, so I'm not putting a lot into this. The previous good pictures were easy for me to get because it was summer and wasn't raining then, so I could take good pictures in good daylight (he he, and I was criticizing the other guy's pictures?).
From my perspective, the oil isn't really getting black on the dipstick but is pretty dark coming out of the filter, and I continue to see junk in the filter. I think the auto-rx is probably cleaning stuff out. I'll know for sure when I drop the pan and take images in there and match them against the pictures I took just prior to adding the auto-rx. That will take place in 1500 more miles. Until then, it looks like winter is starting to set in already up here in Seattle. Kudos to the guys who live South of here
Here is what the filter looks like. Once again the flash on my camera is messing up the appearance of the filter. There is junk in it in the very bottom of the folds. The bright spots look like gunk, but really they are just camera flash. But if you look in the very bottom of the folds in the portions where no flash glare is present, you can see the stuff that is laying in there (in the very tip of the inner crease). Sorry for not giving better pictures, but my life is extremely busy right now, so I'm not putting a lot into this. The previous good pictures were easy for me to get because it was summer and wasn't raining then, so I could take good pictures in good daylight (he he, and I was criticizing the other guy's pictures?).
From my perspective, the oil isn't really getting black on the dipstick but is pretty dark coming out of the filter, and I continue to see junk in the filter. I think the auto-rx is probably cleaning stuff out. I'll know for sure when I drop the pan and take images in there and match them against the pictures I took just prior to adding the auto-rx. That will take place in 1500 more miles. Until then, it looks like winter is starting to set in already up here in Seattle. Kudos to the guys who live South of here
I'm at 3,000 miles into my first rinse phase. The oil does not appear to be any darker than it usually is at this point. Here is what the dipstick looks like (there isn't much oil on it as I pulled it after I drained, but you can see that it is pretty clean. Sorry about overexposed picture resulting from camera flash.).
Here is a similar shot of a little oil in drain pan as last time. Note I still haven't cleaned the crud out of the bottom of the pan, but at least I am having a better hair day than last time.
Here is a shot of the sludge under the secondary drain pan that I did not scrape with my pre-auto-rx cleaning method. I had expected that the auto-rx would put a good dent in this undisturbed sludge, but unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have done much, if anything, yet.
Here is a similar shot. You can see that there is a lot of sludge here that needs to be cleaned. There is WAY more than this up under the secondary drain pan (read tons of it).
Here is a panned back view. I haven't yet compared this to previous pictures of this area (this is the area where I cleaned out tons of sludge by using a razor-blade scraper).
Here is another shot:
I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic and disillusioned about the auto-rx at this point, but I was expecting that after 6,000 miles of use either I would see dramatic visual evidence that cleaning had taken place or see that my oil had gotten darker.
I'm really tempted to abandon the auto-rx and do a kerosene flush instead. Am I expecting too much for a single cleaning of auto-rx? I mean, should I keep going with a second cleaning or should I just walk out there tomorrow, flush the engine with a hot kerosene flush, and be done with it for the next 100,000 miles?
Here is a similar shot of a little oil in drain pan as last time. Note I still haven't cleaned the crud out of the bottom of the pan, but at least I am having a better hair day than last time.
Here is a shot of the sludge under the secondary drain pan that I did not scrape with my pre-auto-rx cleaning method. I had expected that the auto-rx would put a good dent in this undisturbed sludge, but unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have done much, if anything, yet.
Here is a similar shot. You can see that there is a lot of sludge here that needs to be cleaned. There is WAY more than this up under the secondary drain pan (read tons of it).
Here is a panned back view. I haven't yet compared this to previous pictures of this area (this is the area where I cleaned out tons of sludge by using a razor-blade scraper).
Here is another shot:
I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic and disillusioned about the auto-rx at this point, but I was expecting that after 6,000 miles of use either I would see dramatic visual evidence that cleaning had taken place or see that my oil had gotten darker.
I'm really tempted to abandon the auto-rx and do a kerosene flush instead. Am I expecting too much for a single cleaning of auto-rx? I mean, should I keep going with a second cleaning or should I just walk out there tomorrow, flush the engine with a hot kerosene flush, and be done with it for the next 100,000 miles?
I don't see a definitive difference between the before and after photos but perhaps there is a minor difference. My main concern is that auto-rx is promoted as being able to "liquefy sludge." If this is true, then the oil would have to be darker after the sludge is liquified. By contrast, kerosene is promoted as "breaking off large chunks of sludge instead of liquifying it." But the truth is, it does both. The evidence of this is that when you use kerosene, the oil gets as black as coal within 5 minutes of use, but you also get lots of sludge chunks in the oil screen.
As I understand the auto-rx, it is supposed to clean very slowly, but it is supposed to clean. My experience here shows that after 6,000 miles, the oil is not appreciably darker, thus the auto-rx has not appreciably cleaned my engine after one treatment. However, it is still possible that further treatments will result in an appreciable darkening of the oil. IOW, it is possible that my remaining sludge is so hard, that it is going to take the auto-rx a very long time before it can chemically break it down and liquefy it. Maybe the first 6,000 miles has somewhat softened it, and a follow-up cleaning will begin the actual liquefying process.
I suspect that auto-rx works best on the softer kind of sludge, and this is why some people report that it worked extremely well for them and also darkened the oil. Others who have reported that it didn't work very well and didn't darken the oil much probably had the harder form of sludge.
I will give the auto-rx one more 6,000 mile try. If I find that my oil is appreciably darker, I will complete the 3rd 6,000 mile cleaning (with pleasure). If the oil is not darker, I will take that as a sign that auto-rx is not strong enough to cut through the really tough baked-on sludge like I have in my engine. Thus, I will perform as many hot kerosene flushes as necessary to clean out the large amount of sludge still in my engine.
After some thought, I'm not really worried about the threat of destroying my seals when using kerosene. This is because even using 3 hot kerosene flushes will only bring kerosene into direct contact with the seals for a grand-total of 15 minutes. Since the kerosene is mixed with lubricating oil, I don't think it will do any damage. OTOH, if my seals were old, hard, cracked, and leaking, I would probably feel differently. As an experiment, one only needs to drop a seal into a mixture of hot kerosene and oil for 15 minutes and see if the seal loses pliability. I have not tried it, but I would be willing to bet the farm that one could not discern a before and after difference.
Thus, there really are only two reasons to use auto-rx in my engine instead of kerosene. The first is to keep the sludge chunks from breaking off and clogging my oil screen. But since it is easy to pull the pan and clean the screen, this is a 100% non-issue for me.
The second reason is an issue. It is so no sludge chunks break off inside the oil journals between the oil filter and the bearings thus damaging the bearings. I can't be certain if sludge would even form in there, but I feel it is worth giving the auto-rx more of a chance just in case. I will dump a bottle into the car tonight with my most recent oil change and go for another 6,000 mile cleaning and see where that gets me.
I thought I would let a little time pass so I could be more objective and post a more direct comparison of the before/after. The top picture is just prior to adding auto-rx. Note that I had scraped the sides of the pan with a razor, and that is why it is so much cleaner than my very first photos. Also, I had removed the oil tube, and the photos don't match/line up exactly, but they do give a good idea. The bottom photo is the photo I took today after the first 6,000 mile cleaning with auto-rx.
After direct comparison, it does look like some chunks have broken off in a few places. If the top picture looks better, that's only because it is in better light (it was sunny around here back then). I can see in a few places some of the sludge is not in the bottom photo that was in the top photo. The difference is kind of subtle, but there is a difference.
However, it is my opinion that the auto-rx is not liquefying anything yet. Everything coming off is in chunks, and this at least partly has to do with the scraping I did before adding auto-rx having made the environment favorable to chunking. IOW, auto-rx is specifically formulated not to chunk the sludge but instead dissolve it.
Since the previously documented popular auto-rx experiment showed that the most dramatic cleaning took place on the second cycle, I still have hope that I will experience some of this "dissolving" as opposed to just the chunking I am seeing so far.
After direct comparison, it does look like some chunks have broken off in a few places. If the top picture looks better, that's only because it is in better light (it was sunny around here back then). I can see in a few places some of the sludge is not in the bottom photo that was in the top photo. The difference is kind of subtle, but there is a difference.
However, it is my opinion that the auto-rx is not liquefying anything yet. Everything coming off is in chunks, and this at least partly has to do with the scraping I did before adding auto-rx having made the environment favorable to chunking. IOW, auto-rx is specifically formulated not to chunk the sludge but instead dissolve it.
Since the previously documented popular auto-rx experiment showed that the most dramatic cleaning took place on the second cycle, I still have hope that I will experience some of this "dissolving" as opposed to just the chunking I am seeing so far.
This is a great thread! Anymore updates?
Originally Posted By: Jonness
I'm at 3,000 miles into my first rinse phase. The oil does not appear to be any darker than it usually is at this point. Here is what the dipstick looks like (there isn't much oil on it as I pulled it after I drained, but you can see that it is pretty clean. Sorry about overexposed picture resulting from camera flash.).
Here is a similar shot of a little oil in drain pan as last time. Note I still haven't cleaned the crud out of the bottom of the pan, but at least I am having a better hair day than last time.
Here is a shot of the sludge under the secondary drain pan that I did not scrape with my pre-auto-rx cleaning method. I had expected that the auto-rx would put a good dent in this undisturbed sludge, but unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have done much, if anything, yet.
Here is a similar shot. You can see that there is a lot of sludge here that needs to be cleaned. There is WAY more than this up under the secondary drain pan (read tons of it).
Here is a panned back view. I haven't yet compared this to previous pictures of this area (this is the area where I cleaned out tons of sludge by using a razor-blade scraper).
Here is another shot:
I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic and disillusioned about the auto-rx at this point, but I was expecting that after 6,000 miles of use either I would see dramatic visual evidence that cleaning had taken place or see that my oil had gotten darker.
I'm really tempted to abandon the auto-rx and do a kerosene flush instead. Am I expecting too much for a single cleaning of auto-rx? I mean, should I keep going with a second cleaning or should I just walk out there tomorrow, flush the engine with a hot kerosene flush, and be done with it for the next 100,000 miles?
Looks like Auto RX did nothing!
I'm at 3,000 miles into my first rinse phase. The oil does not appear to be any darker than it usually is at this point. Here is what the dipstick looks like (there isn't much oil on it as I pulled it after I drained, but you can see that it is pretty clean. Sorry about overexposed picture resulting from camera flash.).
Here is a similar shot of a little oil in drain pan as last time. Note I still haven't cleaned the crud out of the bottom of the pan, but at least I am having a better hair day than last time.
Here is a shot of the sludge under the secondary drain pan that I did not scrape with my pre-auto-rx cleaning method. I had expected that the auto-rx would put a good dent in this undisturbed sludge, but unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have done much, if anything, yet.
Here is a similar shot. You can see that there is a lot of sludge here that needs to be cleaned. There is WAY more than this up under the secondary drain pan (read tons of it).
Here is a panned back view. I haven't yet compared this to previous pictures of this area (this is the area where I cleaned out tons of sludge by using a razor-blade scraper).
Here is another shot:
I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic and disillusioned about the auto-rx at this point, but I was expecting that after 6,000 miles of use either I would see dramatic visual evidence that cleaning had taken place or see that my oil had gotten darker.
I'm really tempted to abandon the auto-rx and do a kerosene flush instead. Am I expecting too much for a single cleaning of auto-rx? I mean, should I keep going with a second cleaning or should I just walk out there tomorrow, flush the engine with a hot kerosene flush, and be done with it for the next 100,000 miles?
Looks like Auto RX did nothing!
The Auto-Rx brings the sludge to the filter I thought. Checking the color and quantity of "stuff" there might be more helpful than basing it on the discoloration of the oil.
Any updated photos?
How is the car running after all this? Any difference in oil consumption, performance, mileage? In the end isn't that really all that matters.
Originally Posted By: rodinator1234
How is the car running after all this? Any difference in oil consumption, performance, mileage? In the end isn't that really all that matters.
It is important to note that I started this project by removing the valve covers, cleaning under them, unclogging the breather passages, letting kerosene sit in the oil pan over night, removing the pan, and taking a razor blade and scraping out the pan area. After I did this, I ran numerous fresh oil flushes through the car. At this point, the car went from burning a quart of oil every time I filled the gas tank to burning a half a quart at 3K miles. Also, the engine ran like a top. The above described method is the method represented by a Toyota Factory Service guru.
However, when I performed the above work, I noticed that I left behind large amounts of sludge deposits in the engine. For instance, I only removed the mini-oil pan cover. The real oil pan covers much more area and is chock full of black nasty sludge. At this point, I thought I could save myself some time and use auto-rx to clean the rest of the nasty black sludge and save myself from further dismantling the engine.
When I first put the auto-rx in, I think I wanted it to work so bad that I imagined the valves were running quieter. I was really enthusiastic about auto-rx at that point because I had read so much good stuff about it. I think sometimes we want something to turn out a certain way so bad that our mind just imagines it. After a period of initial enthusiasm, I decided to quit trying to provide subjective evidence that auto-rx worked miracles and instead concentrate on legitimate provable evidence. So the following represents my attempt to stick to what I can prove about the product.
After one full round of auto-rx clean and rinse phases, I noticed very little difference, except I think the oil was slightly darker than usual (maybe a shade or so). However, it had been darker than usual during my initial oil rinses following the kerosene scrape, so I could not definitely attribute the oil color to the auto-rx.
I decided, if the auto-rx had been the cause of the slightly darker oil, then the 2nd bottle should continue to turn the oil dark. Meaning that it was liquefying the large amount of black crusty sludge left inside my engine.
I wanted to give the auto-rx a fair chance so I left the 2nd bottle in for 4000 miles in hopes the longer clean phase would soften and liquefy more stuff. But the oil didn't seem appreciably darker to me than I would expect at 4k miles. It was a bit darker than at 3k miles, but I would expect the extra 1000 miles could have caused that. So I was still left with no positive objective evidence that auto-rx worked better than straight motor oil.
I changed the oil and left the 2nd bottle rinse phase oil in for 3500 miles in hopes of a better cleaning as it is claimed the that rinse phase often cleans better than the clean phase. However, once again the oil still had a golden hue when I changed it. I began growing pretty dissallioned with this product as it has been described as "liquefying the oil as opposed to allowing it to circulate in the form of solid chunks which clog your pickup screen and filter." Using logic, this means, if the product works, the oil will get darker because it is the vehicle that transports the liquefied sludge.
Currently, I have had the 3rd bottle of auto-rx in the engine and have about 2500 miles on it. As usual, the oil has a golden hue and does not appear to have any liquefied sludge present in it.
In short, the engine runs great, but I cannot tribute any improvement to the auto-rx so far. But the experiment is still in progress, so I will reserve final judgment for when I finish the auto-rx treatments, pull the pan and observe the before after evidence. After that, I will run a 5-minute kerosene flush and see if it has any affect on cleaning the engine.
Here is a picture of the oil at 2500 miles on 3rd bottle of auto-rx. Sorry for the blurring picture, but you can clearly see the golden hue of the oil.
How is the car running after all this? Any difference in oil consumption, performance, mileage? In the end isn't that really all that matters.
It is important to note that I started this project by removing the valve covers, cleaning under them, unclogging the breather passages, letting kerosene sit in the oil pan over night, removing the pan, and taking a razor blade and scraping out the pan area. After I did this, I ran numerous fresh oil flushes through the car. At this point, the car went from burning a quart of oil every time I filled the gas tank to burning a half a quart at 3K miles. Also, the engine ran like a top. The above described method is the method represented by a Toyota Factory Service guru.
However, when I performed the above work, I noticed that I left behind large amounts of sludge deposits in the engine. For instance, I only removed the mini-oil pan cover. The real oil pan covers much more area and is chock full of black nasty sludge. At this point, I thought I could save myself some time and use auto-rx to clean the rest of the nasty black sludge and save myself from further dismantling the engine.
When I first put the auto-rx in, I think I wanted it to work so bad that I imagined the valves were running quieter. I was really enthusiastic about auto-rx at that point because I had read so much good stuff about it. I think sometimes we want something to turn out a certain way so bad that our mind just imagines it. After a period of initial enthusiasm, I decided to quit trying to provide subjective evidence that auto-rx worked miracles and instead concentrate on legitimate provable evidence. So the following represents my attempt to stick to what I can prove about the product.
After one full round of auto-rx clean and rinse phases, I noticed very little difference, except I think the oil was slightly darker than usual (maybe a shade or so). However, it had been darker than usual during my initial oil rinses following the kerosene scrape, so I could not definitely attribute the oil color to the auto-rx.
I decided, if the auto-rx had been the cause of the slightly darker oil, then the 2nd bottle should continue to turn the oil dark. Meaning that it was liquefying the large amount of black crusty sludge left inside my engine.
I wanted to give the auto-rx a fair chance so I left the 2nd bottle in for 4000 miles in hopes the longer clean phase would soften and liquefy more stuff. But the oil didn't seem appreciably darker to me than I would expect at 4k miles. It was a bit darker than at 3k miles, but I would expect the extra 1000 miles could have caused that. So I was still left with no positive objective evidence that auto-rx worked better than straight motor oil.
I changed the oil and left the 2nd bottle rinse phase oil in for 3500 miles in hopes of a better cleaning as it is claimed the that rinse phase often cleans better than the clean phase. However, once again the oil still had a golden hue when I changed it. I began growing pretty dissallioned with this product as it has been described as "liquefying the oil as opposed to allowing it to circulate in the form of solid chunks which clog your pickup screen and filter." Using logic, this means, if the product works, the oil will get darker because it is the vehicle that transports the liquefied sludge.
Currently, I have had the 3rd bottle of auto-rx in the engine and have about 2500 miles on it. As usual, the oil has a golden hue and does not appear to have any liquefied sludge present in it.
In short, the engine runs great, but I cannot tribute any improvement to the auto-rx so far. But the experiment is still in progress, so I will reserve final judgment for when I finish the auto-rx treatments, pull the pan and observe the before after evidence. After that, I will run a 5-minute kerosene flush and see if it has any affect on cleaning the engine.
Here is a picture of the oil at 2500 miles on 3rd bottle of auto-rx. Sorry for the blurring picture, but you can clearly see the golden hue of the oil.
I have been following this since you started, it's really a great thread. Has the Auto-Rx done anything to reduce the oil consumption from 1/2 qt. every 3k? Sounds like you get credit for the majority of the cleaning and not the auto-rx and with the oil not changing color much begs the question if it would have done the same thing on just fresh clean oil with the same change interval. There is no doubt the engine was as slugged up as any running engine I have ever seen. I think the kerosene flush will amaze you with how much stuff you get out of the engine.
I might add a high calcuim oil like PP to help cleaning but would not use a solvent flush in there.
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