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I keep seeing people say that 0W oils have superior base stocks over all other oils. Is this fact or myth? For example,a 0W20 will be a "better" oil per se over the same brand's 5W20 (both being synthetics).
0w vs 10w starting properties.
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
I keep seeing people say that 0W oils have superior base stocks over all other oils. Is this fact or myth? For example,a 0W20 will be a "better" oil per se over the same brand's 5W20 (both being synthetics).
It wouldn't say it is universal, but it is factually correct in many cases. M1 0w-20's all have more PAO in them than their 5w-20 counterparts, EP and AP being majority PAO lubes.
I keep seeing people say that 0W oils have superior base stocks over all other oils. Is this fact or myth? For example,a 0W20 will be a "better" oil per se over the same brand's 5W20 (both being synthetics).
It wouldn't say it is universal, but it is factually correct in many cases. M1 0w-20's all have more PAO in them than their 5w-20 counterparts, EP and AP being majority PAO lubes.
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by DriveHard
Put this together for a little comparison...
Keep in mind that below 0C (32F) the accuracy falls off a cliff.
Can you put any quantity on that? Does it lose 5% accuracy every 10C below 0C? Any way to tell how accurate it is? My friends in the industry have basically told me it is pretty decent until you start getting near the cloud point of the fluid.
Originally Posted by DriveHard
Put this together for a little comparison...
Keep in mind that below 0C (32F) the accuracy falls off a cliff.
Can you put any quantity on that? Does it lose 5% accuracy every 10C below 0C? Any way to tell how accurate it is? My friends in the industry have basically told me it is pretty decent until you start getting near the cloud point of the fluid.
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
I keep seeing people say that 0W oils have superior base stocks over all other oils. Is this fact or myth? For example,a 0W20 will be a "better" oil per se over the same brand's 5W20 (both being synthetics).
It wouldn't say it is universal, but it is factually correct in many cases. M1 0w-20's all have more PAO in them than their 5w-20 counterparts, EP and AP being majority PAO lubes.
Are there any indications of base differences between M1 0W20 and M1 10W30?
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
I keep seeing people say that 0W oils have superior base stocks over all other oils. Is this fact or myth? For example,a 0W20 will be a "better" oil per se over the same brand's 5W20 (both being synthetics).
It wouldn't say it is universal, but it is factually correct in many cases. M1 0w-20's all have more PAO in them than their 5w-20 counterparts, EP and AP being majority PAO lubes.
Are there any indications of base differences between M1 0W20 and M1 10W30?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted by DriveHard
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by DriveHard
Put this together for a little comparison...
Keep in mind that below 0C (32F) the accuracy falls off a cliff.
Can you put any quantity on that? Does it lose 5% accuracy every 10C below 0C? Any way to tell how accurate it is? My friends in the industry have basically told me it is pretty decent until you start getting near the cloud point of the fluid.
Based on a discussion on here in the past, I think it might have been Tom NJ or Molakule who indicated that for finished lubes viscosity correlation between measured and calculated varies significantly depending on PPD's, VII loading, base oil selection....etc.
You can also roughly extrapolate upwards from CCS/MRV using the "halving" rule, as visc roughly halves every 5C you go up. This also falls apart as you get close to 0C though.
Even for straight bases like PAO for example, using SpectraSyn 6:
100C: 5.8cSt
40C: 31.0cSt
-40C: 7,800cSt
Plugging those first two into a visc calc yields 16,363cSt at -40C
On the other hand, MRV visc, when converted from 6,500cP to cSt yields 7,860cSt, which is extremely close to the measured KV-40 visc.
Doing this same exercise for a heavier base, SpectraSyn 8:
100C: 8.0cSt
40C: 48cST
-40C: 19,000cSt
Calculated -40C: 33,262cSt
MRV converted: 19,447cSt
Let's try a much heavier PAO, SpectraSyn 40:
100C: 39cSt
40C: 396cSt
0C: 4,840cSt
-20C: 40,500cSt
Calculated:
0C: 6,230cSt
-20C: 48,396cSt
No -20C MRV unfortunately, but calculated, even for 0C, is WAY off.
If we try it with an AN, Synesstic 5:
100C: 4.7cSt
40C: 29.0cSt
-40C: 43,600cSt
Calculated -40C: 59,221cSt
MRV converted: 31,940cSt
So MRV conversion does not appear to work on AN's.
I'll see if I can dig up a Group III that has MRV and maybe some other KV viscs listed.
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by DriveHard
Put this together for a little comparison...
Keep in mind that below 0C (32F) the accuracy falls off a cliff.
Can you put any quantity on that? Does it lose 5% accuracy every 10C below 0C? Any way to tell how accurate it is? My friends in the industry have basically told me it is pretty decent until you start getting near the cloud point of the fluid.
Based on a discussion on here in the past, I think it might have been Tom NJ or Molakule who indicated that for finished lubes viscosity correlation between measured and calculated varies significantly depending on PPD's, VII loading, base oil selection....etc.
You can also roughly extrapolate upwards from CCS/MRV using the "halving" rule, as visc roughly halves every 5C you go up. This also falls apart as you get close to 0C though.
Even for straight bases like PAO for example, using SpectraSyn 6:
100C: 5.8cSt
40C: 31.0cSt
-40C: 7,800cSt
Plugging those first two into a visc calc yields 16,363cSt at -40C
On the other hand, MRV visc, when converted from 6,500cP to cSt yields 7,860cSt, which is extremely close to the measured KV-40 visc.
Doing this same exercise for a heavier base, SpectraSyn 8:
100C: 8.0cSt
40C: 48cST
-40C: 19,000cSt
Calculated -40C: 33,262cSt
MRV converted: 19,447cSt
Let's try a much heavier PAO, SpectraSyn 40:
100C: 39cSt
40C: 396cSt
0C: 4,840cSt
-20C: 40,500cSt
Calculated:
0C: 6,230cSt
-20C: 48,396cSt
No -20C MRV unfortunately, but calculated, even for 0C, is WAY off.
If we try it with an AN, Synesstic 5:
100C: 4.7cSt
40C: 29.0cSt
-40C: 43,600cSt
Calculated -40C: 59,221cSt
MRV converted: 31,940cSt
So MRV conversion does not appear to work on AN's.
I'll see if I can dig up a Group III that has MRV and maybe some other KV viscs listed.
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by DriveHard
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by DriveHard
Put this together for a little comparison...
Keep in mind that below 0C (32F) the accuracy falls off a cliff.
Can you put any quantity on that? Does it lose 5% accuracy every 10C below 0C? Any way to tell how accurate it is? My friends in the industry have basically told me it is pretty decent until you start getting near the cloud point of the fluid.
Based on a discussion on here in the past, I think it might have been Tom NJ or Molakule who indicated that for finished lubes viscosity correlation between measured and calculated varies significantly depending on PPD's, VII loading, base oil selection....etc.
.
.
.
I'll see if I can dig up a Group III that has MRV and maybe some other KV viscs listed.
I appreciate the time you spent on that, thank you. I still wonder how that assumption around the cloud point of the fluid plays into this. Any chance you have that info. on those fluids as well. I have data that shows at least on one fluid it is a really good estimation of when the Walther equation falls apart. I have also heard rumor you can estimate around 8,000 cST is where the equation falls apart. Either way, I would estimate for the range I showed in the graph, the results should still be pretty accurate...
Originally Posted by DriveHard
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by DriveHard
Put this together for a little comparison...
Keep in mind that below 0C (32F) the accuracy falls off a cliff.
Can you put any quantity on that? Does it lose 5% accuracy every 10C below 0C? Any way to tell how accurate it is? My friends in the industry have basically told me it is pretty decent until you start getting near the cloud point of the fluid.
Based on a discussion on here in the past, I think it might have been Tom NJ or Molakule who indicated that for finished lubes viscosity correlation between measured and calculated varies significantly depending on PPD's, VII loading, base oil selection....etc.
.
.
.
I'll see if I can dig up a Group III that has MRV and maybe some other KV viscs listed.
I appreciate the time you spent on that, thank you. I still wonder how that assumption around the cloud point of the fluid plays into this. Any chance you have that info. on those fluids as well. I have data that shows at least on one fluid it is a really good estimation of when the Walther equation falls apart. I have also heard rumor you can estimate around 8,000 cST is where the equation falls apart. Either way, I would estimate for the range I showed in the graph, the results should still be pretty accurate...
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted by DriveHard
I appreciate the time you spent on that, thank you. I still wonder how that assumption around the cloud point of the fluid plays into this. Any chance you have that info. on those fluids as well. I have data that shows at least on one fluid it is a really good estimation of when the Walther equation falls apart. I have also heard rumor you can estimate around 8,000 cST is where the equation falls apart. Either way, I would estimate for the range I showed in the graph, the results should still be pretty accurate...
You are quite welcome. I believe we can see the 8,000cSt thing doesn't work based on the base oils I used in the examples. Generally when I graph, I'll go to 0C but not lower because of my lack of faith in the data below that point. One could probably do -10C though and it not be totally out to lunch. Would be nice if something could be put together that you could put MRV visc in + density and it would correct the curve below 0C based on that.
Cloud point is where visc goes off a cliff as the wax crystals start forming. That's not an issue with PAO, which is part of the reason (aside from availability) that I presented the numbers with that base, since it is unaffected by that phenomenon. You need PPD's to push down wax formation point on Group III and below bases.
I just stumbled across this page which shows measured KV for numerous oils down to 0C:
https://wiki.anton-paar.com/en/engine-oil/
If we look at his examples:
1. 0w-30
KV100: 11.7
KV40: 66.8
KV30: 102.66
KV20: 167.29
KV10: 291.93
KV0: 550.23
Putting those first two in a visc calc yields:
KV30: 102.1 (pretty good)
KV20: 165.4 (pretty good)
KV10: 286.8 (decent)
KV0: 539.2 (starting to deviate)
2. SAE 30
KV100: 10.58
KV40: 85.76
KV30: 146.70
KV20: 271.56
KV10: 553.20
KV0: 1257.25
Putting those first two in a visc calc yields:
KV30: 146.70 (bang on)
KV20: 262.60 (decent)
KV10: 560.50 (decent)
KV0: 1303.1 (significant deviation)
3. 5w-40:
KV100: 14.44
KV40: 90.90
KV30: 143.70
KV20: 242.10
KV10: 439.85
KV0: 868.78
Putting those first two in a visc calc yields:
KV30: 142.50 (pretty good)
KV20: 237.30 (decent)
KV10: 424.60 (starting to deviate)
KV0: 827.60 (significant deviation)
So this seems to support that once you get down to around 0C, things indeed start to fall apart.
I appreciate the time you spent on that, thank you. I still wonder how that assumption around the cloud point of the fluid plays into this. Any chance you have that info. on those fluids as well. I have data that shows at least on one fluid it is a really good estimation of when the Walther equation falls apart. I have also heard rumor you can estimate around 8,000 cST is where the equation falls apart. Either way, I would estimate for the range I showed in the graph, the results should still be pretty accurate...
You are quite welcome. I believe we can see the 8,000cSt thing doesn't work based on the base oils I used in the examples. Generally when I graph, I'll go to 0C but not lower because of my lack of faith in the data below that point. One could probably do -10C though and it not be totally out to lunch. Would be nice if something could be put together that you could put MRV visc in + density and it would correct the curve below 0C based on that.
Cloud point is where visc goes off a cliff as the wax crystals start forming. That's not an issue with PAO, which is part of the reason (aside from availability) that I presented the numbers with that base, since it is unaffected by that phenomenon. You need PPD's to push down wax formation point on Group III and below bases.
I just stumbled across this page which shows measured KV for numerous oils down to 0C:
https://wiki.anton-paar.com/en/engine-oil/
If we look at his examples:
1. 0w-30
KV100: 11.7
KV40: 66.8
KV30: 102.66
KV20: 167.29
KV10: 291.93
KV0: 550.23
Putting those first two in a visc calc yields:
KV30: 102.1 (pretty good)
KV20: 165.4 (pretty good)
KV10: 286.8 (decent)
KV0: 539.2 (starting to deviate)
2. SAE 30
KV100: 10.58
KV40: 85.76
KV30: 146.70
KV20: 271.56
KV10: 553.20
KV0: 1257.25
Putting those first two in a visc calc yields:
KV30: 146.70 (bang on)
KV20: 262.60 (decent)
KV10: 560.50 (decent)
KV0: 1303.1 (significant deviation)
3. 5w-40:
KV100: 14.44
KV40: 90.90
KV30: 143.70
KV20: 242.10
KV10: 439.85
KV0: 868.78
Putting those first two in a visc calc yields:
KV30: 142.50 (pretty good)
KV20: 237.30 (decent)
KV10: 424.60 (starting to deviate)
KV0: 827.60 (significant deviation)
So this seems to support that once you get down to around 0C, things indeed start to fall apart.
Originally Posted by WyrTwister
I drive a work truck . 2007 Silverado , V-8 , with 240,000 miles on the clock . If the temp is ~ 30F or lower , when I start up in the morning , it ticks . Last oil change I had the oil change place put in thicker oil . Can not tell any difference .
The question of piston slam has been asked on another thread . I do not know .
The Silverados have an active fuel management system that shuts down four of the 8 cylinders, they do this by collapsing the lifters (shutting off the oil supply to them). The system is known for lifter failure, usually a sign is lifter tick that gets worse. If you made it 240,000 miles without lifter failure, that's probably considered a major success. I'd keep an eye on it.
I drive a work truck . 2007 Silverado , V-8 , with 240,000 miles on the clock . If the temp is ~ 30F or lower , when I start up in the morning , it ticks . Last oil change I had the oil change place put in thicker oil . Can not tell any difference .
The question of piston slam has been asked on another thread . I do not know .
The Silverados have an active fuel management system that shuts down four of the 8 cylinders, they do this by collapsing the lifters (shutting off the oil supply to them). The system is known for lifter failure, usually a sign is lifter tick that gets worse. If you made it 240,000 miles without lifter failure, that's probably considered a major success. I'd keep an eye on it.
Originally Posted by Railrust
WyrTwister said:I drive a work truck . 2007 Silverado , V-8 , with 240,000 miles on the clock . If the temp is ~ 30F or lower , when I start up in the morning , it ticks . Last oil change I had the oil change place put in thicker oil . Can not tell any difference .
The question of piston slam has been asked on another thread . I do not know .
The Silverados have an active fuel management system that shuts down four of the 8 cylinders, they do this by collapsing the lifters (shutting off the oil supply to them). The system is known for lifter failure, usually a sign is lifter tick that gets worse. If you made it 240,000 miles without lifter failure, that's probably considered a major success. I'd keep an eye on it.[/quote.
The OP has a 6.0 liter engine and the 6.0 never had AFM. For the 2007, he didn't say what engine he had. The 4.8 didn't have it either . The 5.3 was bad news.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by WyrTwister
In our part of Texas , I can remember a VERY few times it hit -10F to -15F . Our GM vehicles indicate 5W-30 , so that is what I use .
Texas is big enough , where in Texas makes a lot of difference in climate .
My understanding is , the multi viscosity oil behaves like a single viscosity oil of the same ( second number ) at about 200F ? So a 5-W-30 behaves like a 30 single viscosity at " normal " engine operating temperature ?
^^^^^^^^ Exactly right..
Big big point here about Texas weather...
It can be -10F in Northwest panhandle of Texas and 70F in Brownsville Texas at the same exact moment.... In fact several days from now it will be quite cold in Amarillo and Lubbock area next week.... While at the same time rather warm in southeast Texas....
I have seen has many has 11 different color shades in Texas temperature maps from the weather prediction center part of NWS... Only other area that matches that is California in summer time with cold marine layer present at the coast while very hot in San Bernardino eastward at the same time.
In our part of Texas , I can remember a VERY few times it hit -10F to -15F . Our GM vehicles indicate 5W-30 , so that is what I use .
Texas is big enough , where in Texas makes a lot of difference in climate .
My understanding is , the multi viscosity oil behaves like a single viscosity oil of the same ( second number ) at about 200F ? So a 5-W-30 behaves like a 30 single viscosity at " normal " engine operating temperature ?
^^^^^^^^ Exactly right..
Big big point here about Texas weather...
It can be -10F in Northwest panhandle of Texas and 70F in Brownsville Texas at the same exact moment.... In fact several days from now it will be quite cold in Amarillo and Lubbock area next week.... While at the same time rather warm in southeast Texas....
I have seen has many has 11 different color shades in Texas temperature maps from the weather prediction center part of NWS... Only other area that matches that is California in summer time with cold marine layer present at the coast while very hot in San Bernardino eastward at the same time.
I had some lifter noise one day...
Immediately before an oil change, I poured some Seafoam in my "new to me" Titan with over 250,000 miles, drove it around for 20 or 30 minutes, drained the old oil w/ Seafoam, then put in the cheapest synthetic I could find (SuperTech).
The truck still doesn't have lifter noise anymore.... at least, no more noise than a vehicle with one-fifth of the miles it has.
Immediately before an oil change, I poured some Seafoam in my "new to me" Titan with over 250,000 miles, drove it around for 20 or 30 minutes, drained the old oil w/ Seafoam, then put in the cheapest synthetic I could find (SuperTech).
The truck still doesn't have lifter noise anymore.... at least, no more noise than a vehicle with one-fifth of the miles it has.
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