As usual there is lots more to the story thats not being told. Where and what is the TSB that has been referred to.
09 Acadia with a 25k OCI = sludge
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If the oil caused the failure, AMSOIL would have paid. If a part defect or design caused the failure, GM would have paid. GM paid.
Are we thinking now that more frequent oil changes will be beneficial for the sludging problems on the valves of DI engines?
Originally Posted By: 1999nick
Are we thinking now that more frequent oil changes will be beneficial for the sludging problems on the valves of DI engines?
Time will tell, the smart money is on Amsoil suggesting shorter OCI's for DI engines as they did with the small can filters for certain Honda and Toyota applications. DI I think is a lousy design, and in this case GM knows it, but as they say two wrongs don't make a right. In this case Amsoil lucked out IMO.
Are we thinking now that more frequent oil changes will be beneficial for the sludging problems on the valves of DI engines?
Time will tell, the smart money is on Amsoil suggesting shorter OCI's for DI engines as they did with the small can filters for certain Honda and Toyota applications. DI I think is a lousy design, and in this case GM knows it, but as they say two wrongs don't make a right. In this case Amsoil lucked out IMO.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Also, I don't see owner's neglect, READ THE THREAD PEOPLE. OP in that thread clearly states he changed the oil at 25k or one year as per Amsoil's recommendations. He also used Wix filter, not the Amsoil filter that was no longer approved, and changed it at 12k miles. He also said that he was only adding something like 0.5 of a quart during the 25k OCI.
So yea it really sounds like a guy neglecting his vehicles
He also stated repeatedly, to the people accusing him of neglect, that he has several high mileage cars, two of them with over 200k on the clock using exactly the same routine.
NEGLECT:To pay little or no attention to; fail to heed; disregard
yes, he neglected to heed the MANUFACTURER'S guidelines for OCI.
I don't give a flying flock of seagulls what any oil company says; if the maker of my $40K+ vehicle says follow the OLM, that's what I'm going to do.
Also, I don't see owner's neglect, READ THE THREAD PEOPLE. OP in that thread clearly states he changed the oil at 25k or one year as per Amsoil's recommendations. He also used Wix filter, not the Amsoil filter that was no longer approved, and changed it at 12k miles. He also said that he was only adding something like 0.5 of a quart during the 25k OCI.
So yea it really sounds like a guy neglecting his vehicles
He also stated repeatedly, to the people accusing him of neglect, that he has several high mileage cars, two of them with over 200k on the clock using exactly the same routine.
NEGLECT:To pay little or no attention to; fail to heed; disregard
yes, he neglected to heed the MANUFACTURER'S guidelines for OCI.
I don't give a flying flock of seagulls what any oil company says; if the maker of my $40K+ vehicle says follow the OLM, that's what I'm going to do.
Originally Posted By: sangyup81
The key is the technical bulletin and is therefore the reason why GM covered the repairs
True
The key is the technical bulletin and is therefore the reason why GM covered the repairs
True
Originally Posted By: mpvue
NEGLECT:To pay little or no attention to; fail to heed; disregard
yes, he neglected to heed the MANUFACTURER'S guidelines for OCI.
I don't give a flying flock of seagulls what any oil company says; if the maker of my $40K+ vehicle says follow the OLM, that's what I'm going to do.
Also true, following marketing hype and past experiences. Good thing for the TSB, that saved him! Interesting thread, lots of good points.
NEGLECT:To pay little or no attention to; fail to heed; disregard
yes, he neglected to heed the MANUFACTURER'S guidelines for OCI.
I don't give a flying flock of seagulls what any oil company says; if the maker of my $40K+ vehicle says follow the OLM, that's what I'm going to do.
Also true, following marketing hype and past experiences. Good thing for the TSB, that saved him! Interesting thread, lots of good points.
Originally Posted By: mpvue
NEGLECT:To pay little or no attention to; fail to heed; disregard
yes, he neglected to heed the MANUFACTURER'S guidelines for OCI.
I don't give a flying flock of seagulls what any oil company says; if the maker of my $40K+ vehicle says follow the OLM, that's what I'm going to do.
Good one. i fully agree with this. the OLM in my 07 Civic tells me to change @ 6,800 miles. I extended to 10k with the help of a UOA and i'm satisfied. 3,000 extra miles on the oil is a pretty good and SAFE extension on my OCI.
I don't see why everyone is so into extended UP TO 25k. If oil was $50 a quart, ok i can understand getting the most out of it but @ $5 for a quality synthetic vs a 20K+ car.... hmmmm.
NEGLECT:To pay little or no attention to; fail to heed; disregard
yes, he neglected to heed the MANUFACTURER'S guidelines for OCI.
I don't give a flying flock of seagulls what any oil company says; if the maker of my $40K+ vehicle says follow the OLM, that's what I'm going to do.
I don't see why everyone is so into extended UP TO 25k. If oil was $50 a quart, ok i can understand getting the most out of it but @ $5 for a quality synthetic vs a 20K+ car.... hmmmm.
Originally Posted By: Pablo
But 25K is not recommended in this engine.
Wait a minute: the owner of the Acadia said he was merely following Amsoil's 25K mile OCI. But, per Amsoil, is 25K miles NOT recommended in this engine?
But 25K is not recommended in this engine.
Wait a minute: the owner of the Acadia said he was merely following Amsoil's 25K mile OCI. But, per Amsoil, is 25K miles NOT recommended in this engine?
Originally Posted By: TimVipond
If the oil caused the failure, AMSOIL would have paid. If a part defect or design caused the failure, GM would have paid. GM paid.
This is a good point. We're all familiar with the fact that a warranty cannot be voided simply because an aftermarket part was used. That is, if you used a Purolator or other non-stock filter, the vehicle manufacturer would have to prove that that non-stock filter caused the issue at hand. I think the same goes for maintenance intervals. I think that even in this case, GM has to be able to demonstrate that the 25K mile oil changes caused the issue. The powertrain warranty isn't necessarily voided because the OLM was not followed.
That said, from what I've read, GM does seem to be awfully forthcoming here. We've seen cases that seem to be much more cut-and-dry requiring lawyering up on the vehicle owner's case. Still, without specific evidence that the oil change interval caused the issues for the vehicle owner, GM would ultimately be responsible (especially with such documented issues with those DI engines).
If the oil caused the failure, AMSOIL would have paid. If a part defect or design caused the failure, GM would have paid. GM paid.
This is a good point. We're all familiar with the fact that a warranty cannot be voided simply because an aftermarket part was used. That is, if you used a Purolator or other non-stock filter, the vehicle manufacturer would have to prove that that non-stock filter caused the issue at hand. I think the same goes for maintenance intervals. I think that even in this case, GM has to be able to demonstrate that the 25K mile oil changes caused the issue. The powertrain warranty isn't necessarily voided because the OLM was not followed.
That said, from what I've read, GM does seem to be awfully forthcoming here. We've seen cases that seem to be much more cut-and-dry requiring lawyering up on the vehicle owner's case. Still, without specific evidence that the oil change interval caused the issues for the vehicle owner, GM would ultimately be responsible (especially with such documented issues with those DI engines).
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: TimVipond
If the oil caused the failure, AMSOIL would have paid. If a part defect or design caused the failure, GM would have paid. GM paid.
This is a good point. We're all familiar with the fact that a warranty cannot be voided simply because an aftermarket part was used. That is, if you used a Purolator or other non-stock filter, the vehicle manufacturer would have to prove that that non-stock filter caused the issue at hand. I think the same goes for maintenance intervals. I think that even in this case, GM has to be able to demonstrate that the 25K mile oil changes caused the issue. The powertrain warranty isn't necessarily voided because the OLM was not followed.
That said, from what I've read, GM does seem to be awfully forthcoming here. We've seen cases that seem to be much more cut-and-dry requiring lawyering up on the vehicle owner's case. Still, without specific evidence that the oil change interval caused the issues for the vehicle owner, GM would ultimately be responsible (especially with such documented issues with those DI engines).
GM had issued a TSB, that is why they paid out. We can only guess what the outcome would have been if there was no TSB issued.
Also keep in mind Amsoil said the oil was "good", if I read correctly. There are some people who view the term "good" as a green light to run the oil even longer. Clearly that is not the case here. Tear down showed sludge, what gives? There was no coolant in the oil according to Amsoil.
BTW what is the OCI Amsoil recommends for this engine?
Originally Posted By: TimVipond
If the oil caused the failure, AMSOIL would have paid. If a part defect or design caused the failure, GM would have paid. GM paid.
This is a good point. We're all familiar with the fact that a warranty cannot be voided simply because an aftermarket part was used. That is, if you used a Purolator or other non-stock filter, the vehicle manufacturer would have to prove that that non-stock filter caused the issue at hand. I think the same goes for maintenance intervals. I think that even in this case, GM has to be able to demonstrate that the 25K mile oil changes caused the issue. The powertrain warranty isn't necessarily voided because the OLM was not followed.
That said, from what I've read, GM does seem to be awfully forthcoming here. We've seen cases that seem to be much more cut-and-dry requiring lawyering up on the vehicle owner's case. Still, without specific evidence that the oil change interval caused the issues for the vehicle owner, GM would ultimately be responsible (especially with such documented issues with those DI engines).
GM had issued a TSB, that is why they paid out. We can only guess what the outcome would have been if there was no TSB issued.
Also keep in mind Amsoil said the oil was "good", if I read correctly. There are some people who view the term "good" as a green light to run the oil even longer. Clearly that is not the case here. Tear down showed sludge, what gives? There was no coolant in the oil according to Amsoil.
BTW what is the OCI Amsoil recommends for this engine?
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
The powertrain warranty isn't necessarily voided because the OLM was not followed.
Why not?
I am quoting from the Owner's Manual:
Lack of proper engine oil maintenance can damage the engine. The repairs would not be covered by the vehicle warranty.
Always follow the maintenance schedule in this manual for changing engine oil.
When the system has calculated that oil life has been diminished, it indicates that an oil change is
necessary. A “Change Engine Oil Soon” message comes on. Change the oil as soon as possible within
the next 600miles (1 000 km). It is possible that, if driving under the best conditions, the oil life system
might not indicate that an oil change is necessary for over a year. However, the engine oil and filter
must be changed at least once a year..
The powertrain warranty isn't necessarily voided because the OLM was not followed.
Why not?
I am quoting from the Owner's Manual:
Lack of proper engine oil maintenance can damage the engine. The repairs would not be covered by the vehicle warranty.
Always follow the maintenance schedule in this manual for changing engine oil.
When the system has calculated that oil life has been diminished, it indicates that an oil change is
necessary. A “Change Engine Oil Soon” message comes on. Change the oil as soon as possible within
the next 600miles (1 000 km). It is possible that, if driving under the best conditions, the oil life system
might not indicate that an oil change is necessary for over a year. However, the engine oil and filter
must be changed at least once a year..
Originally Posted By: bigmike
The owner should have done a UOA back when he noticed the coolant disappearing and, at the very least, should have done one when the shop said it was sludged up.
I don't know if that would have helped. If Amosil's UOA was accurate, they claimed the oil was good. I'd like to see a UOA of the oil from another lab.
The owner should have done a UOA back when he noticed the coolant disappearing and, at the very least, should have done one when the shop said it was sludged up.
I don't know if that would have helped. If Amosil's UOA was accurate, they claimed the oil was good. I'd like to see a UOA of the oil from another lab.
[/quote]
This is a good point. We're all familiar with the fact that a warranty cannot be voided simply because an aftermarket part was used. That is, if you used a Purolator or other non-stock filter, the vehicle manufacturer would have to prove that that non-stock filter caused the issue at hand. I think the same goes for maintenance intervals. I think that even in this case, GM has to be able to demonstrate that the 25K mile oil changes caused the issue. The powertrain warranty isn't necessarily voided because the OLM was not followed.
[/quote]
GM is not obligated morally, ethically or LEGALLY to cover any repairs when the maintenance schedule is NOT followed. They are only doing the work covered by the TSB and nothing more. His deccision to go 25k OCI will be noted by the dealer and perhaps with GM and in the event of an oil related failure of some sort you can be assured the vehicle owner will be getting the bill. In my world there is only one word for someone that thinks they can go 25k OCI's and I won't put that word in print here.
One more thing to add here is that there is no way on this earth that GM would take Amsoil's word regarding the condition of the oil. I have seen many times where we have had oil related issues and we are required to submit an oil sample for GM to do their own UOA. If the oil was in there for that kind of mileage the guy wouldn't stand a chance of having repairs covered by warranty.
This is a good point. We're all familiar with the fact that a warranty cannot be voided simply because an aftermarket part was used. That is, if you used a Purolator or other non-stock filter, the vehicle manufacturer would have to prove that that non-stock filter caused the issue at hand. I think the same goes for maintenance intervals. I think that even in this case, GM has to be able to demonstrate that the 25K mile oil changes caused the issue. The powertrain warranty isn't necessarily voided because the OLM was not followed.
[/quote]
GM is not obligated morally, ethically or LEGALLY to cover any repairs when the maintenance schedule is NOT followed. They are only doing the work covered by the TSB and nothing more. His deccision to go 25k OCI will be noted by the dealer and perhaps with GM and in the event of an oil related failure of some sort you can be assured the vehicle owner will be getting the bill. In my world there is only one word for someone that thinks they can go 25k OCI's and I won't put that word in print here.
One more thing to add here is that there is no way on this earth that GM would take Amsoil's word regarding the condition of the oil. I have seen many times where we have had oil related issues and we are required to submit an oil sample for GM to do their own UOA. If the oil was in there for that kind of mileage the guy wouldn't stand a chance of having repairs covered by warranty.
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Here is what GM says.
“If engine damage otherwise covered by warranty
was found to be unrelated to the engine lubricant,
then the consumer’s practice with regard to oil
change intervals would not be a relevant considera-
tion, and the warranty claim would be honored.”
Fuels and Lubricants Division,
General Motors Research Laboratories
“The New Vehicle Warranty would not be void
simply because an owner failed to use proper
engine oils or did not perform maintenance at the
prescribed intervals. Warranty applicability is
contingent upon the cause of failure.”
Service Policies and Procedures Department,
General Motors Corporation
From http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2488.pdf
“If engine damage otherwise covered by warranty
was found to be unrelated to the engine lubricant,
then the consumer’s practice with regard to oil
change intervals would not be a relevant considera-
tion, and the warranty claim would be honored.”
Fuels and Lubricants Division,
General Motors Research Laboratories
“The New Vehicle Warranty would not be void
simply because an owner failed to use proper
engine oils or did not perform maintenance at the
prescribed intervals. Warranty applicability is
contingent upon the cause of failure.”
Service Policies and Procedures Department,
General Motors Corporation
From http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2488.pdf
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GM ate it so it doesn't matter. A 25,000 mile OCI is still flirting with disaster. Glad the guy was covered by GM or it would probably have been a royal PITA for him.
Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
I am quoting from the Owner's Manual:
Lack of proper engine oil maintenance can damage the engine. The repairs would not be covered by the vehicle warranty.
Always follow the maintenance schedule in this manual for changing engine oil.
Yes, repairs CAUSED by the lack of proper engine oil maintenance would not be covered. In this thread, a lot of people have been asking why GM has paid for the engine repair. The way I'm reading the issue, it's because the repairs required are not related to the engine oil maintenance schedule used in this case.
I am quoting from the Owner's Manual:
Lack of proper engine oil maintenance can damage the engine. The repairs would not be covered by the vehicle warranty.
Always follow the maintenance schedule in this manual for changing engine oil.
Yes, repairs CAUSED by the lack of proper engine oil maintenance would not be covered. In this thread, a lot of people have been asking why GM has paid for the engine repair. The way I'm reading the issue, it's because the repairs required are not related to the engine oil maintenance schedule used in this case.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
I am quoting from the Owner's Manual:
Lack of proper engine oil maintenance can damage the engine. The repairs would not be covered by the vehicle warranty.
Always follow the maintenance schedule in this manual for changing engine oil.
Yes, repairs CAUSED by the lack of proper engine oil maintenance would not be covered. In this thread, a lot of people have been asking why GM has paid for the engine repair. The way I'm reading the issue, it's because the repairs required are not related to the engine oil maintenance schedule used in this case.
And all I can say is that sludge, after a 25k OCI, is a red flag for improper "oil maintenance".
We are talking about a car company where we have seen them look for so much less reasons to deny warranty.
Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
I am quoting from the Owner's Manual:
Lack of proper engine oil maintenance can damage the engine. The repairs would not be covered by the vehicle warranty.
Always follow the maintenance schedule in this manual for changing engine oil.
Yes, repairs CAUSED by the lack of proper engine oil maintenance would not be covered. In this thread, a lot of people have been asking why GM has paid for the engine repair. The way I'm reading the issue, it's because the repairs required are not related to the engine oil maintenance schedule used in this case.
And all I can say is that sludge, after a 25k OCI, is a red flag for improper "oil maintenance".
We are talking about a car company where we have seen them look for so much less reasons to deny warranty.
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