Electric Vehicle Impacts
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
They are already benefiting from not having to buy expensive gasoline nor are they paying a road tax.
In many places in the U.S. (I don't know about your country, Canada, or Europe etc.), road tax is collected at the annual registration renewal time. In fact, on my Ford Focus Electric, they collect more than what I would have been taxed if it had a gasoline engine.
A direct subsidy to Tesla & other electric car companies? Maybe yes, that could make more sense. For many years industries have been boosted by the Feds using R&D free dollars. Other ways too.
Our road tax is incorporated into our fuel tax, ergo, EV's aren't paying anything on that front. Remember, our fuel prices are a fair bit higher than yours too, the majority of that is due to taxation.
I have no problem with directly aiding startups that are pushing innovative ideas. I do however have an issue subsidizing luxury vehicles for folks who can readily afford them, particularly if there is already a financial incentive associated with the procurement (EG: EV's, the cost of charging one is WAY less than the cost of fuelling a car). It's the same as my lack of support for penalizing ratepayers by forcing them to eat the cost of feed-in tariffs. Net metering, while not perfect, is a far better program IMHO in that regard.
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
They are already benefiting from not having to buy expensive gasoline nor are they paying a road tax.
In many places in the U.S. (I don't know about your country, Canada, or Europe etc.), road tax is collected at the annual registration renewal time. In fact, on my Ford Focus Electric, they collect more than what I would have been taxed if it had a gasoline engine.
A direct subsidy to Tesla & other electric car companies? Maybe yes, that could make more sense. For many years industries have been boosted by the Feds using R&D free dollars. Other ways too.
Our road tax is incorporated into our fuel tax, ergo, EV's aren't paying anything on that front. Remember, our fuel prices are a fair bit higher than yours too, the majority of that is due to taxation.
I have no problem with directly aiding startups that are pushing innovative ideas. I do however have an issue subsidizing luxury vehicles for folks who can readily afford them, particularly if there is already a financial incentive associated with the procurement (EG: EV's, the cost of charging one is WAY less than the cost of fuelling a car). It's the same as my lack of support for penalizing ratepayers by forcing them to eat the cost of feed-in tariffs. Net metering, while not perfect, is a far better program IMHO in that regard.
Originally Posted by KneeGrinder
Originally Posted by CT8
We will need vast power production if electric cars become high in numbers
Exactly! The power supply, grid, and distribution system is not in place and would take a decade, if not decades in reality to support total individual EV transportation.
Next issue, as has already been mentioned. The battery technology really is just not affordable yet, and the longevity of the batteries is the real killer of the EV.
I believe at this time still, "no one", OE dealer, aftermarket, or an individual can buy a "new" replacement battery pack for an EV or a Hybrid. If you have an issue under warranty with an EV or a Hybrid, you will not get a "new" battery, you will get a factory reconditioned battery which consists of a battery pack that has had all the battery cells tested individually, equalized, and has had the lower voltage/amperage cells removed and replaced with better cells from another used battery. All of the cells in the reconditioned battery pack are used, none of them are new! Its a horror story the EV industry hides from the public. If they sold "new" batteries, and you found out the price up front, and were told in 5 to 8 years you would need a "new" battery, You would never buy an EV!
I shut the battery system off on my 2006 Accord Hybrid a few years ago...It's just a regular gas burning V6 Accord now. Used to get 37mpg, now 31mpg.
Very interesting about how EV batteries are being rebuilt. It's probably as good as they can do, because putting fresh cells in to replace the bad ones would unbalance current production in the assembly. But the reconditioned battery wouldn't have the capacity of a new one, and would probably degrade at an increasing rate, so it would require replacement sooner.
It seems that everybody that buys a pure EV is a Beta tester for whatever company that is selling it.
Originally Posted by CT8
We will need vast power production if electric cars become high in numbers
Exactly! The power supply, grid, and distribution system is not in place and would take a decade, if not decades in reality to support total individual EV transportation.
Next issue, as has already been mentioned. The battery technology really is just not affordable yet, and the longevity of the batteries is the real killer of the EV.
I believe at this time still, "no one", OE dealer, aftermarket, or an individual can buy a "new" replacement battery pack for an EV or a Hybrid. If you have an issue under warranty with an EV or a Hybrid, you will not get a "new" battery, you will get a factory reconditioned battery which consists of a battery pack that has had all the battery cells tested individually, equalized, and has had the lower voltage/amperage cells removed and replaced with better cells from another used battery. All of the cells in the reconditioned battery pack are used, none of them are new! Its a horror story the EV industry hides from the public. If they sold "new" batteries, and you found out the price up front, and were told in 5 to 8 years you would need a "new" battery, You would never buy an EV!
I shut the battery system off on my 2006 Accord Hybrid a few years ago...It's just a regular gas burning V6 Accord now. Used to get 37mpg, now 31mpg.
Very interesting about how EV batteries are being rebuilt. It's probably as good as they can do, because putting fresh cells in to replace the bad ones would unbalance current production in the assembly. But the reconditioned battery wouldn't have the capacity of a new one, and would probably degrade at an increasing rate, so it would require replacement sooner.
It seems that everybody that buys a pure EV is a Beta tester for whatever company that is selling it.
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
In many places in the U.S. (I don't know about your country, Canada, or Europe etc.), road tax is collected at the annual registration renewal time. In fact, on my Ford Focus Electric, they collect more than what I would have been taxed if it had a gasoline engine.
Our road tax is incorporated into our fuel tax, ergo, EV's aren't paying anything on that front. Remember, our fuel prices are a fair bit higher than yours too, the majority of that is due to taxation. .
To clarify, I meant EV road tax support comes at registration time. Fuel taxes, both federal and state, are collected for the gas-clown vehicles at the pump. Not as heavy as Canada and Europe, maybe Australia, always different around the world I guess.
Originally Posted by A_Harman
It seems that everybody that buys a pure EV is a Beta tester for whatever company that is selling it.
It's 2018. Nissan Leafs have been on the road for 9 years now in big numbers. Tesla has had cars for 10 years now. Ford Focus Electric for 6 years now. "Beta" testing is ~about half that time, like 3 years or so.
At what point are EVs not considered that "new-fangled thing the kids are doing these days"?
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
In many places in the U.S. (I don't know about your country, Canada, or Europe etc.), road tax is collected at the annual registration renewal time. In fact, on my Ford Focus Electric, they collect more than what I would have been taxed if it had a gasoline engine.
Our road tax is incorporated into our fuel tax, ergo, EV's aren't paying anything on that front. Remember, our fuel prices are a fair bit higher than yours too, the majority of that is due to taxation. .
To clarify, I meant EV road tax support comes at registration time. Fuel taxes, both federal and state, are collected for the gas-clown vehicles at the pump. Not as heavy as Canada and Europe, maybe Australia, always different around the world I guess.
Originally Posted by A_Harman
It seems that everybody that buys a pure EV is a Beta tester for whatever company that is selling it.
It's 2018. Nissan Leafs have been on the road for 9 years now in big numbers. Tesla has had cars for 10 years now. Ford Focus Electric for 6 years now. "Beta" testing is ~about half that time, like 3 years or so.
At what point are EVs not considered that "new-fangled thing the kids are doing these days"?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
To clarify, I meant EV road tax support comes at registration time. Fuel taxes, both federal and state, are collected for the gas-clown vehicles at the pump. Not as heavy as Canada and Europe, maybe Australia, always different around the world I guess.
No problem, I understood what you were saying. Our road tax is on fuel, there's nothing on the registration front cost-wise, so at this juncture, EV's pay nothing toward infrastructure.
On the other hand, EV's and other "green" vehicles are given special privileges on the roadways, despite not paying that tax:
To clarify, I meant EV road tax support comes at registration time. Fuel taxes, both federal and state, are collected for the gas-clown vehicles at the pump. Not as heavy as Canada and Europe, maybe Australia, always different around the world I guess.
No problem, I understood what you were saying. Our road tax is on fuel, there's nothing on the registration front cost-wise, so at this juncture, EV's pay nothing toward infrastructure.
On the other hand, EV's and other "green" vehicles are given special privileges on the roadways, despite not paying that tax:
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Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
.To clarify, I meant EV road tax support comes at registration time. Fuel taxes, both federal and state, are collected for the gas-clown vehicles at the pump.
At what point are EVs not considered that "new-fangled thing the kids are doing these days"?
With 2400 plug ins on the road out of 8 million vehicles in Wisconsin my guess is that EVs are completely irrelevant to this discussion until more than 5% of vehicles on the road are plug in.
Our state has spent over 5 million dollars on system upgrades to tax these 2400 cars $240000 a year
By the math it was a pretty stupid move
Also in our state we already an alternative fuel tax which is ACTUALLY EQUITABLE and fair in place since the 1980's but we refuse to apply this monthly self reported monthly fee to EVs, it would drive an annual or biannual odometer check though.
Read more here
https://300mpg.org
.To clarify, I meant EV road tax support comes at registration time. Fuel taxes, both federal and state, are collected for the gas-clown vehicles at the pump.
At what point are EVs not considered that "new-fangled thing the kids are doing these days"?
With 2400 plug ins on the road out of 8 million vehicles in Wisconsin my guess is that EVs are completely irrelevant to this discussion until more than 5% of vehicles on the road are plug in.
Our state has spent over 5 million dollars on system upgrades to tax these 2400 cars $240000 a year
By the math it was a pretty stupid move
Also in our state we already an alternative fuel tax which is ACTUALLY EQUITABLE and fair in place since the 1980's but we refuse to apply this monthly self reported monthly fee to EVs, it would drive an annual or biannual odometer check though.
Read more here
https://300mpg.org
Last edited:
OVERKILL, I've heard there are places in California and/or elsewhere in the U.S. that allow hybrids & EVs to go free on toll lanes like that. Ontario certainly wants to encourage EV sales.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
OVERKILL, I've heard there are places in California and/or elsewhere in the U.S. that allow hybrids & EVs to go free on toll lanes like that. Ontario certainly wants to encourage EV sales.
Yup, that was a push made by the previous administration. The present admin has abandoned most of this in an attempt to rein-in electricity prices and out of control deficits (and debt).
OVERKILL, I've heard there are places in California and/or elsewhere in the U.S. that allow hybrids & EVs to go free on toll lanes like that. Ontario certainly wants to encourage EV sales.
Yup, that was a push made by the previous administration. The present admin has abandoned most of this in an attempt to rein-in electricity prices and out of control deficits (and debt).
There are many months I pay $3-$6 on actual kwhrs of electricity used
it's not hard to understand the 90% when thefixed portion of the bill is $48
Add to this 18.1% of my use charges are hidden taxes paid by the utilities to the municipal sub station use tax along with other miscellaneous taxes including income and property taxes paid by the utilities. These taxes paid by them roll into the per kwhr fees they charge.
In my case I also pay sales tax applied to the entire bill even on the low income and other taxes listed within it
So during the summer yes 90% tax is pretty common if I use more juice my tax rate may dip as low as 33% but it's still higher than gas tax
it's not hard to understand the 90% when thefixed portion of the bill is $48
Add to this 18.1% of my use charges are hidden taxes paid by the utilities to the municipal sub station use tax along with other miscellaneous taxes including income and property taxes paid by the utilities. These taxes paid by them roll into the per kwhr fees they charge.
In my case I also pay sales tax applied to the entire bill even on the low income and other taxes listed within it
So during the summer yes 90% tax is pretty common if I use more juice my tax rate may dip as low as 33% but it's still higher than gas tax
Originally Posted by Shannow
90% is fixed doesn't mean it's 90% tax.
Transmission lines, transformers, and meters are capital equipment which goes largely into the fixed costs.
That's a great belief but 5 years ago the fixed fees including the low income and heat assistance taxes were $9 a month
Our utilities rates are government regulated and mandated, local utilities are making record profits and have some of the lowest production and infrastructure costs in the nation.
This insider testimony
https://apps.psc.wi.gov/vs2015/erf_view/viewdoc.aspx?docid=215376
explains how my state government failed consumers by OKing unnecessary expansion and infrastructure to gain approval for increasing fixed fees.
These fixed fees are government mandated (in error) and a tax on private consumers to fund commercial usage and profit expansion in a declining use scenario.
90% is fixed doesn't mean it's 90% tax.
Transmission lines, transformers, and meters are capital equipment which goes largely into the fixed costs.
That's a great belief but 5 years ago the fixed fees including the low income and heat assistance taxes were $9 a month
Our utilities rates are government regulated and mandated, local utilities are making record profits and have some of the lowest production and infrastructure costs in the nation.
This insider testimony
https://apps.psc.wi.gov/vs2015/erf_view/viewdoc.aspx?docid=215376
explains how my state government failed consumers by OKing unnecessary expansion and infrastructure to gain approval for increasing fixed fees.
These fixed fees are government mandated (in error) and a tax on private consumers to fund commercial usage and profit expansion in a declining use scenario.
To answer your question of impacts on:
Fuel: EV will displace a portion of fuel consumption just like hybrid did, based on what application works best. I'd imagine fleet and short distance high torque type equipment and city stop and go type will switch to EV as they see fit. Also depends on battery cost it may put fuel economy and cost pressure on gas and diesel cars, and improve the fuel economy overall like hybrid did for the taxi fleet.
Lube: Not much changed, the change will mainly come from labor cost and consumer convenience benefit in the migration to extended drain lube. I bet in 10 years 15k OCI with M1EP like synthetic will be the norm, like 10k OCI on 0w20 today. EV will be a small dent in this department.
Others: small diesel will be gone forever in 10 years if they haven't already. It will still be around for towing and semi but not for those European small cars, they'll switch to EV or hybrid.
I do think people will be more willing to throw away their old EV than keeping a gas car on the road. It is a perishable item like laptop with a dead battery. It may still work great but not worth fixing as soon as a small accident happen. Better part it out and sell everything than fixing it. Like wise, auto repair may turn into a swap and go experience, depends on battery cost and parts cost.
Fuel: EV will displace a portion of fuel consumption just like hybrid did, based on what application works best. I'd imagine fleet and short distance high torque type equipment and city stop and go type will switch to EV as they see fit. Also depends on battery cost it may put fuel economy and cost pressure on gas and diesel cars, and improve the fuel economy overall like hybrid did for the taxi fleet.
Lube: Not much changed, the change will mainly come from labor cost and consumer convenience benefit in the migration to extended drain lube. I bet in 10 years 15k OCI with M1EP like synthetic will be the norm, like 10k OCI on 0w20 today. EV will be a small dent in this department.
Others: small diesel will be gone forever in 10 years if they haven't already. It will still be around for towing and semi but not for those European small cars, they'll switch to EV or hybrid.
I do think people will be more willing to throw away their old EV than keeping a gas car on the road. It is a perishable item like laptop with a dead battery. It may still work great but not worth fixing as soon as a small accident happen. Better part it out and sell everything than fixing it. Like wise, auto repair may turn into a swap and go experience, depends on battery cost and parts cost.
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