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Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-90 #4918666
11/08/18 04:28 PM
11/08/18 04:28 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 924
Indiana (IN)
shanneba Offline OP
shanneba  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 924
Indiana (IN)
Here is my latest HD XL1200C primary/transmission UOA (on the right)
10,000 miles on Red Line 75w-90

Running Red Line 75w-90 again for another 10,000 miles.

Blackstone comments:
This is the most metal we've found from your transmission to-date. Aluminum and iron are both
much higher than last time, suggesting a problem is developing. Copper improved a bit, but it's still high
enough to show poor wear at brass/bronze parts. Silicon may be some sort of additive, but check to make
sure there's no place for dirt to get into the system and cause extra wear. Insolubles were high, suggesting
this oil was exposed to excess heat/use, so perhaps excess heat can account for the extra metal. Check
back in 5,000 miles and proceed with caution.


Code
+----------------+-----------+-----------+----------+
| Miles on oil   | 10000     | 10000     | 10000    |
| Total miles    | 15000     | 25000     | 35000    |
| Date           | 03/26/16  | 08/16/17  | 10/30/18 |
| Make up oil    | 0         | 0         |          |
| Oil Brand      | Red Line  | Red Line  | Red Line |
| Weight         | MT-90     | 75w-110   | 75w-90   |
|                |           |           |          |
|                |           |           |          |
| ALUMINUM       | 82        | 81        | 124      |
| CHROMIUM       | 0         | 0         | 0        |
| IRON           | 58        | 74        | 101      |
| COPPER         | 21        | 56        | 42       |
| LEAD           | 2         | 1         | 1        |
| TIN            | 0         | 0         | 1        |
| MOLYBDENUM     | 16        | 6         | 7        |
| NICKEL         | 1         | 1         | 1        |
| MANGANESE      | 1         | 1         | 1        |
| SILVER         | 0         | 0         | 0        |
| TITANIUM       | 0         | 0         | 0        |
| POTASSIUM      | 2         | 3         | 3        |
| BORON          | 137       | 131       | 164      |
| SILICON        | 49        | 77        | 76       |
| SODIUM         | 5         | 8         | 7        |
| CALCIUM        | 2933      | 408       | 119      |
| MAGNESIUM      | 109       | 23        | 7        |
| PHOSPHORUS     | 1957      | 2930      | 3029     |
| ZINC           | 2199      | 392       | 162      |
| BARIUM         | 0         | 1         | 1        |
|                |           |           |          |
| SUS @ 210F     | 77.2      | 92.7      | 78.9     |
| cSt @ 100C     | 14.83     | 18.63     | 15.25    |
| Flashpoint F   | 440       | 435       | 410      |
| Fuel         % |           |           |          |
| Antifreeze %   |           |           |          |
| Water       %  | 0         | 0         | 0        |
| Insolubles %   | TR        | 0.4       | 0.8      |
+----------------+-----------+-----------+----------+


2003 BMW 330Ci
2013 HD Sportster XL1200C
Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-90 [Re: shanneba] #4918698
11/08/18 05:19 PM
11/08/18 05:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,986
Pennsylvania
Boomer Offline
Boomer  Offline
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,986
Pennsylvania
Whatever is going on, I think you are using the wrong lubricant! Go back to the original at least.


2013 VW Passat TDI SE, 61,200 miles Castrol Professional VW507 5W-30
2017 VW Golf All Track 18,370 miles Castrol Professional VW505 5W-40
Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-90 [Re: shanneba] #4918889
11/08/18 11:31 PM
11/08/18 11:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,799
Waco, TX
Linctex Online content
Linctex  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,799
Waco, TX
The Sportster primary runs a wet clutch...... and no oil filter anywhere.

There will ALWAYS be tons of metal and debris in a system like that.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-90 [Re: shanneba] #4919091
11/09/18 09:52 AM
11/09/18 09:52 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,022
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,022
Kalifornia Kollective
Yup, and no where to really put a magnet ... No drain plug per se ...


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-90 [Re: shanneba] #4920757
11/11/18 09:08 AM
11/11/18 09:08 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,503
South Carolina
alarmguy Offline
alarmguy  Offline
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,503
South Carolina
Im confused :o) ...

What year is the bike?

and ...

What is the purpose of running a gear lube in the trans/primary when plain old oil is specified by the manufacturer?

Am I missing a reason for this?

As far as the wear numbers, not exactly blowing the doors off with outstanding numbers, then again, nothing to compare with anyway or is there?


Last edited by alarmguy; 11/11/18 09:11 AM.

14 Road King (current)
08 VStar 1300 Tourer
07 Suzuki C50
Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-90 [Re: alarmguy] #4920820
11/11/18 10:26 AM
11/11/18 10:26 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 924
Indiana (IN)
shanneba Offline OP
shanneba  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 924
Indiana (IN)
Originally Posted by alarmguy
Im confused :o) ...

What year is the bike?

and ...

What is the purpose of running a gear lube in the trans/primary when plain old oil is specified by the manufacturer?

Am I missing a reason for this?

As far as the wear numbers, not exactly blowing the doors off with outstanding numbers, then again, nothing to compare with anyway or is there?



My signature shows the bike as a 2013 smile
Harley Formula+ is a gear oil. (not to be used in the engine is written on the bottle)
HD gives no specifications as to what it is.

Formula+ is blended to provide lubricity for the anti-wear requirements of transmission gears.
Primary/Transmission: ’71-later XL and ’83-’84 XR1000 models. Every 10,000 miles, or prior to winter or extended storage periods
Formulated to maintain the coefficient of friction for proper clutch operation and provide adequate lubrication to the primary chain
Approved for use in all stages of transmission and primary chaincase life
Not for use in the crankcase as a motor oil



Not many primary/Trans UOAs from HD Sportsters.
Not sure what years Blackstone includes in the averages, could include older Sportsters with the trap door.
I also have the HD Screamin Eagle kevlar clutch kit with the 10% heavier clutch spring and without the "spring plate"


Here is what Blackstone shows for universal averages based on 5700 miles, I calculated 10,000 miles by multiplying 5700 X 1.75 = 9975.

Code
+--------------+--------------+------------+
| Universal    | times 1.75   |            |
| ~ 5700 miles | ~10000 miles |            |
| 9            | 16           | ALUMINUM   |
| 0            | 0            | CHROMIUM   |
| 47           | 82           | IRON       |
| 6            | 11           | COPPER     |
| 1            | 2            | LEAD       |
| 1            | 2            | TIN        |
| 0            | 0            | NICKEL     |
| 1            | 2            | MANGANESE  |
| 0            | 0            | SILVER     |
| 0            | 0            | TITANIUM   |
| 5            | 9            | POTASSIUM  |
+--------------+--------------+------------+

Last edited by shanneba; 11/11/18 10:44 AM.

2003 BMW 330Ci
2013 HD Sportster XL1200C
Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-90 [Re: shanneba] #4920937
11/11/18 12:38 PM
11/11/18 12:38 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,503
South Carolina
alarmguy Offline
alarmguy  Offline
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,503
South Carolina
I could be wrong on this as I never looked into it much but I do use the Formula + in my transmission and primary.

But according to some posts in these forums and a voa others have commented that it's a simple gl1 mineral oil with specs up to gl-3 oil.

Since HD also allows 20/50 HD syn motor oil to be used in the transmission and primary I can only assume your manual calls for the same thing.

Many people will use Mobil 1 20/50 motor oil in the transmission and primary instead of HD syn motor.oil or in your case the 20/50 Redline if there isn't a ton of moly in it. I never saw any of them using gear lube in the primary, some do use gear lube in the transmission which I don't agree with or HD would too.

Again I really don't know much about the Sportsters and again I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong I just haven't seen or heard of anybody using it with a primary.

I do know for a fact some gl4 and gl5 gear lubes can be corrosive to soft metals although nowadays that has been reduced by most and I have no idea if any soft metals are in a HD transmission or primary except HD doesn't use it.

Oops I now see the 2013. :o)

Last edited by alarmguy; 11/11/18 12:56 PM.

14 Road King (current)
08 VStar 1300 Tourer
07 Suzuki C50
Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-90 [Re: alarmguy] #4921036
11/11/18 02:02 PM
11/11/18 02:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 924
Indiana (IN)
shanneba Offline OP
shanneba  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 924
Indiana (IN)
I've seen the Forumula+ VOAs indicating it is a GL1 that tests as a GL3.
That is why I ran the 75w-110 diff lube, as it is close to the viscosity of the Formula+
(Diamond Chain also suggests a 50 weight oil in an application like the Harley primary)

My owners manual and service manual only mention Formula+ in the trans/primary.
I know HD says the SYN3 can be used in the Sportster trans/primary.
I did run that at my 1000 mile service. No UOA of the factory fill or that run of SYN3.

The Red Line Power Sports 20w-50 does have ~425 ppm of "moly" but it is also JASO MA rated.
"Blended with specific friction modifiers that are compatible with wet-clutches, suitable for JASO MA applications"
I may run that in my next trans/primary UOA. smile

I haven't seen information from Mobil that the V-Twin 20w-50 is JASO MA rated, I believe the 4T 10w-40 Mobil 1 is.
Both say "optimized" for wet clutch performance smile I believe the M1 V-Twin 20w-50 has about 90 ppm of moly.

All the Red Line GL5 gear lubes are tested as 1A in the ASTM D-130 "Detection of Copper Corrosion from Petroleum Products by the Copper Strip Tarnish Test"
The Sportster Primary does have the stator for the charging system that has copper.

Eventually I'll do a UOA using Formula+, but I expect similar results smile


2003 BMW 330Ci
2013 HD Sportster XL1200C
Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-90 [Re: shanneba] #4921370
11/11/18 06:20 PM
11/11/18 06:20 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,503
South Carolina
alarmguy Offline
alarmguy  Offline
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,503
South Carolina
Yup, sounds like you have all your bases covered and well-thought-out.
I'm impressed that you know the Redline is 1a.


14 Road King (current)
08 VStar 1300 Tourer
07 Suzuki C50
Re: Harley Xl1200 Primary/Trans UOA Red Line 75w-90 [Re: shanneba] #4924821
11/15/18 06:47 AM
11/15/18 06:47 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 924
Indiana (IN)
shanneba Offline OP
shanneba  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 924
Indiana (IN)
I figured Red Line would suggest MT-90 for the Sportster primary/transmission.
Their first suggestion is the 75w-90, but they will also say the MT-90 or the 75w-90NS will also work.

I tried the 75w-110 when it came out since it had a viscosity very close to the Formula+.

Amsoil has a gear oil test where they show Red Line 75w-90 tested as 1b, Red Line says their 75w-90 tests as 1a.

I have just been adding the full quart the owner's manual and service manual call for on these changes.
This time I got the bike close to level and had to add about another 4 ounces to get the oil level to the bottom
of the clutch spring. Maybe my wear will be little less this time. I will see in about 10,000 miles. smile


2003 BMW 330Ci
2013 HD Sportster XL1200C

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