15w-40 instead of 5w-20
- Thread starter clatterpillar
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well, i dont work for a company, i work for a municipality. my boss has HER job because she had enough seniority to take it when it came up open. she has no shop experience, other than what she has "learned" since taking the job. i have been there almost 3 years.
i am not out to "upset the applecart", as i couldnt take her job if i wanted, and she cant get fired (union). i just want to make sure i understand the consequences of what we do.
most of our vehicles dont make it much past 50kmi, as they are completely wasted/develop major issues not worth fixing. i have worked for two private companies, one a 50 semi-truck fleet, and one a 3000 peice construction equipment fleet; doing what i do now. i have never seen such poorly maintained/problematic equipment as we have where i work. no private company would put up with vehicles as completely unreliable as ours.
our rotella costs us over $10/gal, and we go through it like crazy changing oil every 1000 miles for vehciles, and 100 hours for backhoes.....
i am not out to "upset the applecart", as i couldnt take her job if i wanted, and she cant get fired (union). i just want to make sure i understand the consequences of what we do.
most of our vehicles dont make it much past 50kmi, as they are completely wasted/develop major issues not worth fixing. i have worked for two private companies, one a 50 semi-truck fleet, and one a 3000 peice construction equipment fleet; doing what i do now. i have never seen such poorly maintained/problematic equipment as we have where i work. no private company would put up with vehicles as completely unreliable as ours.
our rotella costs us over $10/gal, and we go through it like crazy changing oil every 1000 miles for vehciles, and 100 hours for backhoes.....
Don't listen to all the lemmings telling you to be afraid of your boss. Tell him what oil you believe he should use and be very specific why. Being afraid of superiors is no way to go through life. A certain P word comes to mind to describe these kind of people. I think you're more likely to get credit for a good idea than held back or fired.
Here would be my concern about something like this. If these guys dont know much about mechanics and you go changing everything to 5w20 or whatever, then next time a ball joint fails it will be because we put that water thin oil in there. This is an extreme bit of sarcasm but it makes my point. Most likely the 15w40 is the least of the concerns compared to abuse, transmission fluids and neglect. i think if i felt strongly about it i would push more for a 10w30 just because uninformed people are more comfortable with these numbers.
Originally Posted By: clatterpillar
our rotella costs us over $10/gal, and we go through it like crazy changing oil every 1000 miles for vehciles, and 100 hours for backhoes.....
Changing Oil every 1000 miles? Is that a typo or just a HUGE waste of taxpayer money?
I bet an investigative reporter would like to do a story on your city maintenance yard!
our rotella costs us over $10/gal, and we go through it like crazy changing oil every 1000 miles for vehciles, and 100 hours for backhoes.....
Changing Oil every 1000 miles? Is that a typo or just a HUGE waste of taxpayer money?
I bet an investigative reporter would like to do a story on your city maintenance yard!
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: 45ACP
Originally Posted By: tig1
With the gas engine vehicles, I would advise using a quality 5-30 as a general engine oil. Of course, M1 5-30 would be recomendation.
Cost concerns.
But the cost of a quality oil like M1 5-30 is peanuts compared to the engine failures his company is having.
Fair enough, but this company apparently doesnt see it that way! (The company the OP describes. They seem to like 15W-40 more than "Mobil 1." Which might be cost effective if purchased from Walmart but idk..)
I worry this guy will go get fired because the bosses feel threatened by his will to "save" their vans.
I agree that a 5W-30 (M1 or not) is better than 15W-40 for the app. They could go get Supertech 5W-30 for $11.84 for 5 quarts which is likely an XOM product but it sounds like they go get the Delo or whatnot 15W-40 that is down the aisle.. for fleet use.......... Ive been the well-intentioned guy before that people dont want to hear what he has to say.
Originally Posted By: 45ACP
Originally Posted By: tig1
With the gas engine vehicles, I would advise using a quality 5-30 as a general engine oil. Of course, M1 5-30 would be recomendation.
Cost concerns.
But the cost of a quality oil like M1 5-30 is peanuts compared to the engine failures his company is having.
Fair enough, but this company apparently doesnt see it that way! (The company the OP describes. They seem to like 15W-40 more than "Mobil 1." Which might be cost effective if purchased from Walmart but idk..)
I worry this guy will go get fired because the bosses feel threatened by his will to "save" their vans.
I agree that a 5W-30 (M1 or not) is better than 15W-40 for the app. They could go get Supertech 5W-30 for $11.84 for 5 quarts which is likely an XOM product but it sounds like they go get the Delo or whatnot 15W-40 that is down the aisle.. for fleet use.......... Ive been the well-intentioned guy before that people dont want to hear what he has to say.
Originally Posted By: jstutz
Here would be my concern about something like this. If these guys dont know much about mechanics and you go changing everything to 5w20 or whatever, then next time a ball joint fails it will be because we put that water thin oil in there. This is an extreme bit of sarcasm but it makes my point. Most likely the 15w40 is the least of the concerns compared to abuse, transmission fluids and neglect. i think if i felt strongly about it i would push more for a 10w30 just because uninformed people are more comfortable with these numbers.
No, thats actually closer than you think. I once topped off a vehicle 1.5 quarts of 5W-20, and a couple days later everything from "there is a burning smell" to "Why is there no heat" was somehow related to my topping up engine oil. Now, that was a nasty, vindictive woman.. but, still. Just all-around angry.. and ridiculous. beyond ridiculous.
Here would be my concern about something like this. If these guys dont know much about mechanics and you go changing everything to 5w20 or whatever, then next time a ball joint fails it will be because we put that water thin oil in there. This is an extreme bit of sarcasm but it makes my point. Most likely the 15w40 is the least of the concerns compared to abuse, transmission fluids and neglect. i think if i felt strongly about it i would push more for a 10w30 just because uninformed people are more comfortable with these numbers.
No, thats actually closer than you think. I once topped off a vehicle 1.5 quarts of 5W-20, and a couple days later everything from "there is a burning smell" to "Why is there no heat" was somehow related to my topping up engine oil. Now, that was a nasty, vindictive woman.. but, still. Just all-around angry.. and ridiculous. beyond ridiculous.
Originally Posted By: Shark
Don't listen to all the lemmings telling you to be afraid of your boss. Tell him what oil you believe he should use and be very specific why. Being afraid of superiors is no way to go through life. A certain P word comes to mind to describe these kind of people. I think you're more likely to get credit for a good idea than held back or fired.
Knowing how to handle things with superiors in the real world is NOT the mark of a "P" but of a guy wh is going to get promoted rather than fired. Do YOu change jobs much?
Don't listen to all the lemmings telling you to be afraid of your boss. Tell him what oil you believe he should use and be very specific why. Being afraid of superiors is no way to go through life. A certain P word comes to mind to describe these kind of people. I think you're more likely to get credit for a good idea than held back or fired.
Knowing how to handle things with superiors in the real world is NOT the mark of a "P" but of a guy wh is going to get promoted rather than fired. Do YOu change jobs much?
Originally Posted By: clatterpillar
well, i dont work for a company, i work for a municipality. my boss has HER job because she had enough seniority to take it when it came up open. she has no shop experience, other than what she has "learned" since taking the job. i have been there almost 3 years.
i am not out to "upset the applecart", as i couldnt take her job if i wanted, and she cant get fired (union). i just want to make sure i understand the consequences of what we do.
most of our vehicles dont make it much past 50kmi, as they are completely wasted/develop major issues not worth fixing. i have worked for two private companies, one a 50 semi-truck fleet, and one a 3000 peice construction equipment fleet; doing what i do now. i have never seen such poorly maintained/problematic equipment as we have where i work. no private company would put up with vehicles as completely unreliable as ours.
our rotella costs us over $10/gal, and we go through it like crazy changing oil every 1000 miles for vehciles, and 100 hours for backhoes.....
You really think that Rotella is the sole cause of these problems? I suspect operator attitude is also involved. If you "convince" the boss to change, and one of the units fails for any reason, YOU are going to be the one doing habba habbida habbida. Is it fair, no. Is it likely, YES. Again, you had better be REAL SURE that 15W40 is killing machines, and 5W30 will save them before sticking your neck out. Even if they were using a "cheap" oil the boss arranged to buy from a "friend" and you blew the whistle, well, we know what happens to whisleblowers if they are not careful. With a union involved....
well, i dont work for a company, i work for a municipality. my boss has HER job because she had enough seniority to take it when it came up open. she has no shop experience, other than what she has "learned" since taking the job. i have been there almost 3 years.
i am not out to "upset the applecart", as i couldnt take her job if i wanted, and she cant get fired (union). i just want to make sure i understand the consequences of what we do.
most of our vehicles dont make it much past 50kmi, as they are completely wasted/develop major issues not worth fixing. i have worked for two private companies, one a 50 semi-truck fleet, and one a 3000 peice construction equipment fleet; doing what i do now. i have never seen such poorly maintained/problematic equipment as we have where i work. no private company would put up with vehicles as completely unreliable as ours.
our rotella costs us over $10/gal, and we go through it like crazy changing oil every 1000 miles for vehciles, and 100 hours for backhoes.....
You really think that Rotella is the sole cause of these problems? I suspect operator attitude is also involved. If you "convince" the boss to change, and one of the units fails for any reason, YOU are going to be the one doing habba habbida habbida. Is it fair, no. Is it likely, YES. Again, you had better be REAL SURE that 15W40 is killing machines, and 5W30 will save them before sticking your neck out. Even if they were using a "cheap" oil the boss arranged to buy from a "friend" and you blew the whistle, well, we know what happens to whisleblowers if they are not careful. With a union involved....
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Do you want to be right or do you want to be employed? When stupdity reveals itself at my work, I [censored] in private or [censored] to people I trust.
I'm wondering if there is bigger problem, like abuse of the equipment or infrequent oil level checks. I certainly wouldn't recommend 15w40 in the vehicles you have mentioned, but I wouldn't expect a lot of low mileage engine failures from it either.
Keep your eyes open, write down your ideas & observations, and keep the list in a safe place. When you have earned everyone's respect and are in a position to make changes...pull out the list.
In the meantime, if someone asks for your opinion on lubricants, I would start by with the transmission fluid(s). In the case of ATF, using the wrong fluid can often cause funky shifts that even a novice driver would notice. You still run the risk of a transmission failing from previous drama and someone pointing to the new fluid...but if the transmission operates "better" than before you might earn some respect in the shop.
Just my $0.02.
Keep your eyes open, write down your ideas & observations, and keep the list in a safe place. When you have earned everyone's respect and are in a position to make changes...pull out the list.
In the meantime, if someone asks for your opinion on lubricants, I would start by with the transmission fluid(s). In the case of ATF, using the wrong fluid can often cause funky shifts that even a novice driver would notice. You still run the risk of a transmission failing from previous drama and someone pointing to the new fluid...but if the transmission operates "better" than before you might earn some respect in the shop.
Just my $0.02.
Originally Posted By: clatterpillar
i am trying to complile a list of reasons as to why my boss should stop using 15w-40 rotella diesel oil in our entire fleet.
we have 6 medium duty IH dump trucks, several cat backhoes, and about 80 gas pickups; mostly 2010+ ford f250s, with a few dodges, and chevys mixed in. we also have a few "passenger type" vehicles; ford escapes, ford station wagons, jeep libertys/grand cherokees, etc. we also have two ford hybrid cars (i forget what model). all vehicles are gas, except the dump trucks/equipment. 99% of them call for 5w-20.
using 15-40 in them cant possibly doing them any good, can it? these new engines are not the same engines made in the 80s. we have several pretty new trucks that have serious bottom end knocks/valve train noise. my boss thinks this is totally normal.
i was dumbfounded when i first started working at this job, and was pouring 15-40 into dodge neons. our fleet is plaged with oil leaks, low-hour engine failures, low-hour major component rebuilds, and general un-reliability. *i* think alot this stems from their "one oil fits all" approach. we only use one engine oil (15-40), one atf (atfII), and one gear oil (80/90). nothing in the fleet calls for atfII, or 80/90. yet we spend $28/gallon for some gimmick synthetic hydraulic oil.
am i over thinking this, or am i on the right track?
I don't think using 15W-40 would cause damage to the engines, even if they call for 5W-20. But you will experience less fuel economy and horsepower. Regarding 15W-40 decreasing the engine life in gas engines, it's hard to say. Also, you might have difficult starting and even engine damage at very cold temperatures.
For heavy-duty diesels, even a CJ-4 10W-30 is a no-no. These engines require 15W-40, period. You could use 5W-40 but nothing less. Even a CJ-4 10W-30 would cause a lot of wear on these soot-coughing beasts, as the thinner oil film cannot cope with the abrasive soot particles.
Another problem with using gasoline-engine oil in fleets is that dino PCMO won't work with fleets and you need synthetic PCMO or dino HDEO. Both dino HDEO and synthetic PCMO allow longer oil-change intervals and harsh driving conditions but dino PCMO is a no-no for fleets.
If you want to switch from 15W-40, these are your choices:
(1) Switch to 5W-40 synthetic CJ-4 HDEO for all your fleet -- it will solve your problem during very cold temperatures. Shell Rotella T6 5W-40 or Chevron Delo 400 LE 5W-40 are not expensive.
or
(2) Keep the 15W-40 HDEO for heavy-duty vehicles and switch to a cheap 5W-30 fully synthetic PCMO for gasoline engines, such as Formula Shell fully synthetic 5W-30 or similar.
I would recommend against dino 5W-30 PCMO in fleets. It won't allow you long OCIs and harsh driving conditions. I would also recommend against 5W-20, unless all your gasoline engines call for it. It could be too thin for some engines and cause excessive oil consumption and tailpipe smoke. Note that dino 5W-30 also shears down to 5W-20 after a short time.
i am trying to complile a list of reasons as to why my boss should stop using 15w-40 rotella diesel oil in our entire fleet.
we have 6 medium duty IH dump trucks, several cat backhoes, and about 80 gas pickups; mostly 2010+ ford f250s, with a few dodges, and chevys mixed in. we also have a few "passenger type" vehicles; ford escapes, ford station wagons, jeep libertys/grand cherokees, etc. we also have two ford hybrid cars (i forget what model). all vehicles are gas, except the dump trucks/equipment. 99% of them call for 5w-20.
using 15-40 in them cant possibly doing them any good, can it? these new engines are not the same engines made in the 80s. we have several pretty new trucks that have serious bottom end knocks/valve train noise. my boss thinks this is totally normal.
i was dumbfounded when i first started working at this job, and was pouring 15-40 into dodge neons. our fleet is plaged with oil leaks, low-hour engine failures, low-hour major component rebuilds, and general un-reliability. *i* think alot this stems from their "one oil fits all" approach. we only use one engine oil (15-40), one atf (atfII), and one gear oil (80/90). nothing in the fleet calls for atfII, or 80/90. yet we spend $28/gallon for some gimmick synthetic hydraulic oil.
am i over thinking this, or am i on the right track?
I don't think using 15W-40 would cause damage to the engines, even if they call for 5W-20. But you will experience less fuel economy and horsepower. Regarding 15W-40 decreasing the engine life in gas engines, it's hard to say. Also, you might have difficult starting and even engine damage at very cold temperatures.
For heavy-duty diesels, even a CJ-4 10W-30 is a no-no. These engines require 15W-40, period. You could use 5W-40 but nothing less. Even a CJ-4 10W-30 would cause a lot of wear on these soot-coughing beasts, as the thinner oil film cannot cope with the abrasive soot particles.
Another problem with using gasoline-engine oil in fleets is that dino PCMO won't work with fleets and you need synthetic PCMO or dino HDEO. Both dino HDEO and synthetic PCMO allow longer oil-change intervals and harsh driving conditions but dino PCMO is a no-no for fleets.
If you want to switch from 15W-40, these are your choices:
(1) Switch to 5W-40 synthetic CJ-4 HDEO for all your fleet -- it will solve your problem during very cold temperatures. Shell Rotella T6 5W-40 or Chevron Delo 400 LE 5W-40 are not expensive.
or
(2) Keep the 15W-40 HDEO for heavy-duty vehicles and switch to a cheap 5W-30 fully synthetic PCMO for gasoline engines, such as Formula Shell fully synthetic 5W-30 or similar.
I would recommend against dino 5W-30 PCMO in fleets. It won't allow you long OCIs and harsh driving conditions. I would also recommend against 5W-20, unless all your gasoline engines call for it. It could be too thin for some engines and cause excessive oil consumption and tailpipe smoke. Note that dino 5W-30 also shears down to 5W-20 after a short time.
Originally Posted By: tig1
With the gas engine vehicles, I would advise using a quality 5-30 as a general engine oil. Of course, M1 5-30 would be recomendation.
Well, one would think one could obtain the 5w-30 in bulk as well. Heck, our Walmarts here have a bunch of their own 5w-30 SN/GF-5 in five gallon pails on special right now.
I can see wanting to make things easier by using one grade of oil. Sometimes, however, one can go a little overboard. If it was a mixed fleet of 1980s vintage Chevy taxis and diesel trucks, sure, go for the 15w-40. With modern hybrids? I don't think so.
With the gas engine vehicles, I would advise using a quality 5-30 as a general engine oil. Of course, M1 5-30 would be recomendation.
Well, one would think one could obtain the 5w-30 in bulk as well. Heck, our Walmarts here have a bunch of their own 5w-30 SN/GF-5 in five gallon pails on special right now.
I can see wanting to make things easier by using one grade of oil. Sometimes, however, one can go a little overboard. If it was a mixed fleet of 1980s vintage Chevy taxis and diesel trucks, sure, go for the 15w-40. With modern hybrids? I don't think so.
ok, so it sounds like while its not the best idea, its not the worst either. i guess i was wrong. in a pinch once, i had to put 10/30 in my tacoma instead of 5/20. it made a very noticable difference in how the truck ran.
and no, the 1000 mile intervals are for real; what gets me more is the backhoes call for 500hr intervals, but we do them at 100hr or sooner. i did ask why the short intrevals for the machinery, and was told "b/c thats the way i do it".
the best is that we change engine oil at these rediculous intervals, but we NEVER change hydraulic filters, fuel filters, trans filters, etc; or any oil other than engine oil. we have dump trucks with 6000+ hours running on the factory installed fuel filters, and all our hoes have factory fuel/hydraulic filters. i have been yelled at and told not to change fuel filters on diesel machinery
and no, the 1000 mile intervals are for real; what gets me more is the backhoes call for 500hr intervals, but we do them at 100hr or sooner. i did ask why the short intrevals for the machinery, and was told "b/c thats the way i do it".
the best is that we change engine oil at these rediculous intervals, but we NEVER change hydraulic filters, fuel filters, trans filters, etc; or any oil other than engine oil. we have dump trucks with 6000+ hours running on the factory installed fuel filters, and all our hoes have factory fuel/hydraulic filters. i have been yelled at and told not to change fuel filters on diesel machinery
Quote:
the 1000 mile intervals are for real; what gets me more is the backhoes call for 500hr intervals, but we do them at 100hr or sooner. i did ask why the short intrevals for the machinery, and was told "b/c thats the way i do it".
the best is that we change engine oil at these rediculous intervals, but we NEVER change hydraulic filters, fuel filters, trans filters, etc; or any oil other than engine oil.
You work for a municipality. Its called grease, kickback, the golden hand shake, back scratching, etc. Ever wonder who gets the grease for ordering this much oil? Don't bother, if they know what they are doing that cat already scratched the sand over that poo.
I worked for the State and retired from another countries State system, the amount of money, trips, property deals, bargains on State goods, etc floating around would make a pro thief feel like a rank amateur.
Be careful where you step, you just might not have the shoes for it.
the 1000 mile intervals are for real; what gets me more is the backhoes call for 500hr intervals, but we do them at 100hr or sooner. i did ask why the short intrevals for the machinery, and was told "b/c thats the way i do it".
the best is that we change engine oil at these rediculous intervals, but we NEVER change hydraulic filters, fuel filters, trans filters, etc; or any oil other than engine oil.
You work for a municipality. Its called grease, kickback, the golden hand shake, back scratching, etc. Ever wonder who gets the grease for ordering this much oil? Don't bother, if they know what they are doing that cat already scratched the sand over that poo.
I worked for the State and retired from another countries State system, the amount of money, trips, property deals, bargains on State goods, etc floating around would make a pro thief feel like a rank amateur.
Be careful where you step, you just might not have the shoes for it.
Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: clatterpillar
in a pinch once, i had to put 10/30 in my tacoma instead of 5/20. it made a very noticable difference in how the truck ran.
Oh, so was your tacoma engine sound noticably quieter or noisier with the 10/30 ?
My guess would be quieter, but only OP knows. Also, very good point, it changes the way the engine "feels."
Originally Posted By: clatterpillar
in a pinch once, i had to put 10/30 in my tacoma instead of 5/20. it made a very noticable difference in how the truck ran.
Oh, so was your tacoma engine sound noticably quieter or noisier with the 10/30 ?
My guess would be quieter, but only OP knows. Also, very good point, it changes the way the engine "feels."
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