How about some real life experience;an engine sitting for several years is raised up onto the engine stand.the pan is drained of old oil while you remove external parts.The engine is rotated over,pan removed,then bearing caps.You notice there's still an oil flim on the crank journal and bearing surface.It's a crusty 350 Chevy from a beater truck so you know it's not synthetic oil.Does this mean anything?
Synthetic stick to metal parts better than dino's?
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Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
Perhaps you were using Group I or II; see above.
It is also my understanding that Grps I & II have some 'cling' but not as much as esters.
Yes. Both I, II, and III base oils are in the "moderate" category on polarity.
Sorry I can't seem to locate the table right now.
On an experiment I did for a chemistry report, I could not tell the difference in these three in retained oil mass, or film thickness after a two week runoff at room temperature.
I used both bearing material (mass) and steel. I used identical feeler gauge stacks for the thickness test, knowing that only one film would be likely too small to measure, but used the micrometer to measure then calculate the combined films trapped on the surfaces.
That's a scientific as I ever got.
I know my truch sits sometimes a week or two with various synthetics, and never a start-up rattle.
Perhaps you were using Group I or II; see above.
It is also my understanding that Grps I & II have some 'cling' but not as much as esters.
Yes. Both I, II, and III base oils are in the "moderate" category on polarity.
Sorry I can't seem to locate the table right now.
On an experiment I did for a chemistry report, I could not tell the difference in these three in retained oil mass, or film thickness after a two week runoff at room temperature.
I used both bearing material (mass) and steel. I used identical feeler gauge stacks for the thickness test, knowing that only one film would be likely too small to measure, but used the micrometer to measure then calculate the combined films trapped on the surfaces.
That's a scientific as I ever got.
I know my truch sits sometimes a week or two with various synthetics, and never a start-up rattle.
Originally Posted By: Truckedup
How about some real life experience;an engine sitting for several years is raised up onto the engine stand.the pan is drained of old oil while you remove external parts.The engine is rotated over,pan removed,then bearing caps.You notice there's still an oil flim on the crank journal and bearing surface.It's a crusty 350 Chevy from a beater truck so you know it's not synthetic oil.Does this mean anything?
So far as I can make out, this seems to show you had Grp I or II in it; those groups have moderate adhesion.
My experience (above) shows that Syntec, a Grp III, has none.
How about some real life experience;an engine sitting for several years is raised up onto the engine stand.the pan is drained of old oil while you remove external parts.The engine is rotated over,pan removed,then bearing caps.You notice there's still an oil flim on the crank journal and bearing surface.It's a crusty 350 Chevy from a beater truck so you know it's not synthetic oil.Does this mean anything?
So far as I can make out, this seems to show you had Grp I or II in it; those groups have moderate adhesion.
My experience (above) shows that Syntec, a Grp III, has none.
Originally Posted By: river_rat
I know my truch sits sometimes a week or two with various synthetics, and never a start-up rattle.
Perhaps this simply shows you don't have a worn out engine. I've never had start up rattle with good engines regardless of the oil I was using.
But see above, third post herein, for my experience with the truly shot Dodge Caravan, and the three different oils.
I know my truch sits sometimes a week or two with various synthetics, and never a start-up rattle.
Perhaps this simply shows you don't have a worn out engine. I've never had start up rattle with good engines regardless of the oil I was using.
But see above, third post herein, for my experience with the truly shot Dodge Caravan, and the three different oils.
Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
Interesting comment; do you know how much?
RL won't divulge the ratio of PAO and polyol ester, but there have been some people here who have said (and seem to be in the know) RL is around 40% PAO and around 60% POE.
Interesting comment; do you know how much?
RL won't divulge the ratio of PAO and polyol ester, but there have been some people here who have said (and seem to be in the know) RL is around 40% PAO and around 60% POE.
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
Interesting comment; do you know how much?
RL won't divulge the ratio of PAO and polyol ester, but there have been some people here who have said (and seem to be in the know) RL is around 40% PAO and around 60% POE.
VERY interesting comment! Good to know.
Based on my worn-out Dodge experience, above, it seems one doesn't really need 100% Grp V to get that cling effect; RP is around 15-20%, I think.
But 60% has to be better yet.
Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
Interesting comment; do you know how much?
RL won't divulge the ratio of PAO and polyol ester, but there have been some people here who have said (and seem to be in the know) RL is around 40% PAO and around 60% POE.
VERY interesting comment! Good to know.
Based on my worn-out Dodge experience, above, it seems one doesn't really need 100% Grp V to get that cling effect; RP is around 15-20%, I think.
But 60% has to be better yet.
Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
Originally Posted By: Truckedup
How about some real life experience;an engine sitting for several years is raised up onto the engine stand.the pan is drained of old oil while you remove external parts.The engine is rotated over,pan removed,then bearing caps.You notice there's still an oil flim on the crank journal and bearing surface.It's a crusty 350 Chevy from a beater truck so you know it's not synthetic oil.Does this mean anything?
So far as I can make out, this seems to show you had Grp I or II in it; those groups have moderate adhesion
My experience (above) shows that Syntec, a Grp III, has none.
Quick thought... If an oil has "Adhesion," it is not Circulating as well!
I wonder the "Happy Medium" Here.
Also there is the issue of Synthetic Blend, such as an oil that has about 3/10 Synthetic and the rest Conventional..
Originally Posted By: Truckedup
How about some real life experience;an engine sitting for several years is raised up onto the engine stand.the pan is drained of old oil while you remove external parts.The engine is rotated over,pan removed,then bearing caps.You notice there's still an oil flim on the crank journal and bearing surface.It's a crusty 350 Chevy from a beater truck so you know it's not synthetic oil.Does this mean anything?
So far as I can make out, this seems to show you had Grp I or II in it; those groups have moderate adhesion
My experience (above) shows that Syntec, a Grp III, has none.
Quick thought... If an oil has "Adhesion," it is not Circulating as well!
I wonder the "Happy Medium" Here.
Also there is the issue of Synthetic Blend, such as an oil that has about 3/10 Synthetic and the rest Conventional..
Originally Posted By: HangerHarley
Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
Originally Posted By: Truckedup
How about some real life experience;an engine sitting for several years is raised up onto the engine stand.the pan is drained of old oil while you remove external parts.The engine is rotated over,pan removed,then bearing caps.You notice there's still an oil flim on the crank journal and bearing surface.It's a crusty 350 Chevy from a beater truck so you know it's not synthetic oil.Does this mean anything?
So far as I can make out, this seems to show you had Grp I or II in it; those groups have moderate adhesion
My experience (above) shows that Syntec, a Grp III, has none.
Quick thought... If an oil has "Adhesion," it is not Circulating as well!
I wonder the "Happy Medium" Here.
Also there is the issue of Synthetic Blend, such as an oil that has about 3/10 Synthetic and the rest Conventional..
ZDDP contributes to adhesion. You want an oil with an affinity for ferrous metals, as it prevents complete drain off once oil pressure is gone. The oil's ability to cling to metal does not impede circulation.
Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
Originally Posted By: Truckedup
How about some real life experience;an engine sitting for several years is raised up onto the engine stand.the pan is drained of old oil while you remove external parts.The engine is rotated over,pan removed,then bearing caps.You notice there's still an oil flim on the crank journal and bearing surface.It's a crusty 350 Chevy from a beater truck so you know it's not synthetic oil.Does this mean anything?
So far as I can make out, this seems to show you had Grp I or II in it; those groups have moderate adhesion
My experience (above) shows that Syntec, a Grp III, has none.
Quick thought... If an oil has "Adhesion," it is not Circulating as well!
I wonder the "Happy Medium" Here.
Also there is the issue of Synthetic Blend, such as an oil that has about 3/10 Synthetic and the rest Conventional..
ZDDP contributes to adhesion. You want an oil with an affinity for ferrous metals, as it prevents complete drain off once oil pressure is gone. The oil's ability to cling to metal does not impede circulation.
Originally Posted By: HangerHarley
Quick thought... If an oil has "Adhesion," it is not Circulating as well!
Hmm. Interesting. Don't know the answer.
I think it's purely a question of mechanics: viscosity, pump volume, oil pressure, bearing clearances, RPM, etc.
Experts to comment??
Quick thought... If an oil has "Adhesion," it is not Circulating as well!
Hmm. Interesting. Don't know the answer.
I think it's purely a question of mechanics: viscosity, pump volume, oil pressure, bearing clearances, RPM, etc.
Experts to comment??
Adhesion is separate from flow. Think of water. It has excellent adhesive properties on many surfaces. If you put your hand in water, it will come out wet due to the adhesive properties relative to your hand.
However, if you add enough sugar to the water (call it syrup), the new solution will also have excellent cohesive properties. It will both cling well and resist flowing.
However, if you add enough sugar to the water (call it syrup), the new solution will also have excellent cohesive properties. It will both cling well and resist flowing.
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: HangerHarley
Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
Originally Posted By: Truckedup
How about some real life experience;an engine sitting for several years is raised up onto the engine stand.the pan is drained of old oil while you remove external parts.The engine is rotated over,pan removed,then bearing caps.You notice there's still an oil flim on the crank journal and bearing surface.It's a crusty 350 Chevy from a beater truck so you know it's not synthetic oil.Does this mean anything?
So far as I can make out, this seems to show you had Grp I or II in it; those groups have moderate adhesion
My experience (above) shows that Syntec, a Grp III, has none.
Quick thought... If an oil has "Adhesion," it is not Circulating as well!
I wonder the "Happy Medium" Here.
Also there is the issue of Synthetic Blend, such as an oil that has about 3/10 Synthetic and the rest Conventional..
ZDDP contributes to adhesion. You want an oil with an affinity for ferrous metals, as it prevents complete drain off once oil pressure is gone. The oil's ability to cling to metal does not impede circulation.
What seems to be emerging is that an older Grp I or Grp II oil with loads of ZDDP seems to have excellent adhesion properties.
Originally Posted By: HangerHarley
Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
Originally Posted By: Truckedup
How about some real life experience;an engine sitting for several years is raised up onto the engine stand.the pan is drained of old oil while you remove external parts.The engine is rotated over,pan removed,then bearing caps.You notice there's still an oil flim on the crank journal and bearing surface.It's a crusty 350 Chevy from a beater truck so you know it's not synthetic oil.Does this mean anything?
So far as I can make out, this seems to show you had Grp I or II in it; those groups have moderate adhesion
My experience (above) shows that Syntec, a Grp III, has none.
Quick thought... If an oil has "Adhesion," it is not Circulating as well!
I wonder the "Happy Medium" Here.
Also there is the issue of Synthetic Blend, such as an oil that has about 3/10 Synthetic and the rest Conventional..
ZDDP contributes to adhesion. You want an oil with an affinity for ferrous metals, as it prevents complete drain off once oil pressure is gone. The oil's ability to cling to metal does not impede circulation.
What seems to be emerging is that an older Grp I or Grp II oil with loads of ZDDP seems to have excellent adhesion properties.
Originally Posted By: river_rat
Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
But see above, third post herein, for my experience with the truly shot Dodge Caravan, and the three different oils.
I read that, but thought you were talking about all engines.
What I'm trying to say is that:
1. Esters minimize start up noise in noisy engines: noisy, that is, due to worn crank bearings
2. But if you don't have a noisy engine, that is, the crank bearings aren't worn, you won't get start up noise
3. So, you don't have to worry about your oil
4. But if you do have a shot engine, ester-based oils will stop the damage caused by dry start ups
5. So, you can put off the evil day when you have to pop your wallet for a rebuilt engine
6. And this is true for any engine with say 100K on the clock.
Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
But see above, third post herein, for my experience with the truly shot Dodge Caravan, and the three different oils.
I read that, but thought you were talking about all engines.
What I'm trying to say is that:
1. Esters minimize start up noise in noisy engines: noisy, that is, due to worn crank bearings
2. But if you don't have a noisy engine, that is, the crank bearings aren't worn, you won't get start up noise
3. So, you don't have to worry about your oil
4. But if you do have a shot engine, ester-based oils will stop the damage caused by dry start ups
5. So, you can put off the evil day when you have to pop your wallet for a rebuilt engine
6. And this is true for any engine with say 100K on the clock.
Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
What seems to be emerging is that an older Grp I or Grp II oil with loads of ZDDP seems to have excellent adhesion properties.
Base oil polarity goes pretty much like this:
group V esters > group I > group II > group III > group IV PAO
The difference between the polarity of esters and group I is quite a bit, while the difference between group III and PAO isn't all that great.
What seems to be emerging is that an older Grp I or Grp II oil with loads of ZDDP seems to have excellent adhesion properties.
Base oil polarity goes pretty much like this:
group V esters > group I > group II > group III > group IV PAO
The difference between the polarity of esters and group I is quite a bit, while the difference between group III and PAO isn't all that great.
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
What seems to be emerging is that an older Grp I or Grp II oil with loads of ZDDP seems to have excellent adhesion properties.
Base oil polarity goes pretty much like this:
group V esters > group I > group II > group III > group IV PAO
The difference between the polarity of esters and group I is quite a bit, while the difference between group III and PAO isn't all that great.
Thank you, this is extremely interesting.
BTW, this is what I'd figured out, unscientifically.
Obvious questions:
1 How is polarity measured?
2 How can the layman find out which oils contain what amounts of esters?
Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
What seems to be emerging is that an older Grp I or Grp II oil with loads of ZDDP seems to have excellent adhesion properties.
Base oil polarity goes pretty much like this:
group V esters > group I > group II > group III > group IV PAO
The difference between the polarity of esters and group I is quite a bit, while the difference between group III and PAO isn't all that great.
Thank you, this is extremely interesting.
BTW, this is what I'd figured out, unscientifically.
Obvious questions:
1 How is polarity measured?
2 How can the layman find out which oils contain what amounts of esters?
Don't most oil filters nowadays have back flow valves so oil gets to the top of the engine quicker?
Originally Posted By: Mustang Man
Don't most oil filters nowadays have back flow valves so oil gets to the top of the engine quicker?
Certainly. Some are better than others. A good one, and a 0W or 5W oil, will get oil to your bearings in very little elapsed time.
But in that "elapsed time" you still want some oil present to stop metal to metal contact on the crankshaft. And the more worn the crankshaft bearings are, the more important this becomes.
Don't most oil filters nowadays have back flow valves so oil gets to the top of the engine quicker?
Certainly. Some are better than others. A good one, and a 0W or 5W oil, will get oil to your bearings in very little elapsed time.
But in that "elapsed time" you still want some oil present to stop metal to metal contact on the crankshaft. And the more worn the crankshaft bearings are, the more important this becomes.
Originally Posted By: Velo_Fello
What I'm trying to say is that:
1. Esters minimize start up noise in noisy engines: noisy, that is, due to worn crank bearings
2. But if you don't have a noisy engine, that is, the crank bearings aren't worn, you won't get start up noise
3. So, you don't have to worry about your oil
4. But if you do have a shot engine, ester-based oils will stop the damage caused by dry start ups
5. So, you can put off the evil day when you have to pop your wallet for a rebuilt engine
6. And this is true for any engine with say 100K on the clock.
That makes sense to me, except maybe for #6. I don't consider 100K a really high mileage these days.
My wife's car at 155K, and her last one (until the tranny blew chunks) at 160K make/made no untoward noises at all.
Nor does a buddy's Grand Cherokee with 1/4 million miles. etc, etc.
But yes, I think when the oil clearances open up, a "clingier" polarity oil will likely stay in the enlarged gaps better during the off period--and should provide a cushion until new oil arrives as too far apart on one side usually means too close together on the other side.
What I'm trying to say is that:
1. Esters minimize start up noise in noisy engines: noisy, that is, due to worn crank bearings
2. But if you don't have a noisy engine, that is, the crank bearings aren't worn, you won't get start up noise
3. So, you don't have to worry about your oil
4. But if you do have a shot engine, ester-based oils will stop the damage caused by dry start ups
5. So, you can put off the evil day when you have to pop your wallet for a rebuilt engine
6. And this is true for any engine with say 100K on the clock.
That makes sense to me, except maybe for #6. I don't consider 100K a really high mileage these days.
My wife's car at 155K, and her last one (until the tranny blew chunks) at 160K make/made no untoward noises at all.
Nor does a buddy's Grand Cherokee with 1/4 million miles. etc, etc.
But yes, I think when the oil clearances open up, a "clingier" polarity oil will likely stay in the enlarged gaps better during the off period--and should provide a cushion until new oil arrives as too far apart on one side usually means too close together on the other side.
Let me add one more thing about 100K engines and ester oils.
I've had three leaky engines all around 100K (two 1.8L Miatas, a 1.9L Saturn). I put in ester-containing oils (Redline in Miatas, Royal Purple in Saturn). The leaks, from the camshaft position sensors (Miatas) and front crank seal (Saturn) soon stopped.
Esters have natural seal-swelling properties.
I think 'high mileage' oils have lots of esters. Experts to comment???
I've had three leaky engines all around 100K (two 1.8L Miatas, a 1.9L Saturn). I put in ester-containing oils (Redline in Miatas, Royal Purple in Saturn). The leaks, from the camshaft position sensors (Miatas) and front crank seal (Saturn) soon stopped.
Esters have natural seal-swelling properties.
I think 'high mileage' oils have lots of esters. Experts to comment???
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