What is the iron issue with Mobil 1?

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Unfortunately, oil analysis is not very good at distinguishing wear between different formulations. Emission spectroscopy has a particle size limit of 3 to 5 microns, which means that particles larger will not be detected. Unfortunately, most serious wear issues generate wear particles in the range of 5 - 15 microns. Oil analysis only measures about 15-20% of the particles in the oil, and changing form one formulation to another is likely to change the particle size profile. Usually formulations with more antiwear additive will more aggressively react with the metal surface and when rubbing occurs will produce smaller particles. Generally, more antiwear additives will give greater iron spectrochemical numbers, even though the total iron can be lower. There are other techniques such as ferrography, which looks at the wear particles under a microscope, but now we are talking about analysis many times more expensive than spectrochemical analysis. The oils with the better spectrochemical numbers will be much less chemically active on the metal surface, so they will be less able to handle more severe loads. There is always a trade-off between chemical wear and adhesive wear. Chemical wear is the very small particles and soluble metals which is identified in the spectrochemical analysis, while adhesive wear is many orders of magnitude greater than the chemical wear, but much is not identified in spectrochemical analysis. But if you were using spectrochemical analysis as a maintenance tool and started seeing a deviation over the baseline, then you would know something was wrong.

It is very difficult for an individual to be able to look at numbers which will conclusively determine the best formulation, you simply have to rely on the reputation of the marketer and whether you trust the marketer's technical expertise. With most of our formulations, we rely on major additive manufacturers to do the basic API sequence testing to determine criteria such as antiwear, dispersancy, cleanliness, etc. All the oil companies rely on the additive manufacturers to do the engine test work. We will take their basic package and add additional antiwear, friction modifiers, oxidation inhibitors or whatever can be safely modified to provide superior performance. Some of the bench tests such as 4-Ball can be useful, but a blind adherance to optimize with one single test will result a less-than-optimum performing lubricant. There are always trade-offs in engine oils, and we try to enhance antiwear and friction reduction at higher temperatures and loads, while trying to maintain performance at lower and normal loads and temperatures.

Regards,

Roy
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
RedLine sometimes shows increased Pb values on the initial changeover but that seems to settle off after a few OCIs. RedLine usually returns really low Fe values from what I've observed.

Not that a few ppm of Pb or Fe in a UOA really matters all that much.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1154400

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1215910&fpart=1



There was a paper/statement from a guy at Redline that buster posted up a while back. It was a good read.


My bad, dawg.
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Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
RedLine sometimes shows increased Pb values on the initial changeover but that seems to settle off after a few OCIs. RedLine usually returns really low Fe values from what I've observed.

Not that a few ppm of Pb or Fe in a UOA really matters all that much.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1154400

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1215910&fpart=1



There was a paper/statement from a guy at Redline that buster posted up a while back. It was a good read.


My bad, dawg.
grin2.gif



LOL!
cheers3.gif
 
Like I said, I'm now in the witness protection program.
Nevertheless, I managed to persuade you people to have a most fascinating discussion. This thread should go into the permanent archives.
 
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M1 is pretty arrogant but i buy it anyways...they would say it is a nominal diference with iron and not importaNT
 
Originally Posted By: chet2
M1 is pretty arrogant but I buy it anyways...they would say it is a nominal difference with iron and not importaNT


It probably isn't important...

If 20+ppm of iron was significant, wouldn't we be seeing engines drop dead all over the place? I know countless people who rarely change their oil, and their cars keep on running.
All of us sit here and argue over a few PPM while everyone else is blissfully going about their day, totally clueless to whether there is 5ppm or 400ppm of iron sitting in their sump. If you tried to talk to them about it, they would think you’re crazy, and continue about their day.

The more I sit and read about UOA's, the less interested I become in the actual wear metals. UOA's are good to check the condition of the oil, not the condition of the engine. If you have damaged an engine enough to the point where it actually shows in the UOA, chances are you are well aware of it before the UOA results came back. You don't need to know wear metal counts to figure out you spun a bearing.

The only actual engine issue I feel UOA's are good for is to check coolant contamination. But then again, that’s not a wear metal...

Let’s not even get started about the whole single pass analysis thing. Anyone who has taken a research or science class knows that a single pass or a single sample of anything is completely useless. I have seen UOA samples analyzed by competing labs with a huge change in numbers. Who are we to believe in this case?

As a penzzoil user, I am going to have to agree with Mobil on this one. UOA's are nothing but a fun read for those with money to burn. So while the rest of you are droping $20+ each oil change to have someone tell you your engine is ok, I'll just keep dumping my sump and refilling. When we both reach 200k miles, we can have a nice chat about who's engine is in better condition. I don't care if you used the tears of God to lubricate your engine, at 200k there won't be a [censored] bit of difference from someone who used a quality approved oil. In fact, the only difference would be the weight of your wallet...
 
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http://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/technology/277946/f1-oil-technology.html

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ExxonMobil's mobile laboratory will be present at track tests and samples of engine oil will be taken and analysed after each run using a spark emission spectrometer. This measures 19 seperate elements in parts per million, with abnormal readings indicating possible potential problems. For example an abnormally high iron reading may indicate an increase in wear or stress on components in relation to the previous oils tested.


It's wear.
 
Originally Posted By: pickled
I have to say that I agree with Buster...it's wear. M1 does well at keeping things clean and takes heat though. They sell it on the cheap in Wally.


That`s always made me wonder...........would an oil that cleans impeccably have to sacrifice on lubrication? While on the other hand,an oil that lubricates better be a bit weak on the cleanliness? Maybe a good compromise would be to run a synthetic every other oil change? :^)
 
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Use a little tool called statistical process control (SPC) and pop for a ferrogram every once in a while and then tell me the same thing about UOA's. If you don't know what SPC is there was this really cool guy named Shewhart and a few of his friends named Deming and Juran that wrote a few "pamphlets" that are widely read. There is a reason why industrial predictive maintenance programs use UOA's to verify their vibration analysis, ultrasonic inspections and thermography.
 
Mobil 1 may produce more wear and provide cleanliness, otyher oils may provide less wear and a little less cleanliness. I don't think either of the weakness are significant enough to matter. Choose your faveorite bassed on what you want out of the oil.
 
Originally Posted By: pickled
The really weird thing is that Delvac1 doesn't show this trend at all in diesel fleet use
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I think because it's a better oil. Bit more expensive too.

From Roy Howell:

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There are always trade-offs in engine oils
 
Originally Posted By: pickled
Use a little tool called statistical process control (SPC) and pop for a ferrogram every once in a while and then tell me the same thing about UOA's. If you don't know what SPC is there was this really cool guy named Shewhart and a few of his friends named Deming and Juran that wrote a few "pamphlets" that are widely read. There is a reason why industrial predictive maintenance programs use UOA's to verify their vibration analysis, ultrasonic inspections and thermography.


That goes hand-in-hand with Doug's rather extensive posting on the use of UOA's though. You need a massive statistical base to compare your results to and the comparisons are done over an extensive time-frame.

Tracking UOA's in a fleet of OTR transport trucks all running the same loads, using the same engines, allows one to create an extensive UOA database where one can glean useful information about contamination, oil life, lubricant durability/longevity and gives you a base to compare future results from those vehicles to. Anomolies are then easier to identify and track, and weight can then be assigned to what you are observing because you have a huge base of data from the same equipment to compare it to.

On the other hand, getting a couple of UOA's done on a car and then freaking out about 7ppm of Fe between OCI's.......... well, there's nothing useful about that.
 
IMR works pretty good for my applications. If I see ppm increase of greater than 2ppm/1,000 miles it triggers process shift warnings based on the fact that 95 times out of 100 something is really different. This baseline cost me $150 to develop, but gives me an oil dumping point or vehicle disposal point for my vehicle upon confirmation sampling. I use one lab, the Indianapolis lab, in the Polaris system and have sent in duplicates and triplicates to verify their method variation in respect to spectroscopic analysis of metals. I now perform viscosity @100, TBN analysis and coolant contamination analysis in my own lab to save money.
 
Here's a story for you...

Before I was a BITOG member and my Santa Fe was new (after break-in) I used Mobil-1 Syn 5w30 and changed according to the owners manual at 6K KM (3500 Miles) not knowing any better I did this for 80K KM (50K miles). When I bought the Santa Fe I bought a ton of M1 because I had a way of getting it cheaper than retail at the time. (no longer have this connection) I literally had about 20 jugs.

I joined BITOG and learned all about UOA's etc. so wanting the best for my truck I did a UOA. I got back the results and all the numbers were in check and quite low (including iron at 8ppm).

I kept using Mobil and then I read about the hoopla that apparently they had changed to GRP-III as a part of or as their main basetock for oil. Thought nothing of it at the time.

So I get to the end of my warranty with Hyundai at 100K KM (60K miles) and I see this stuff called Amsoil. So I thought I would try some. I buy the SSO stuff which is just new and put it in for a couple of changes and do a UOA. I notice that the wear numbers on the UOA's are slightly lower but the Iron is almost in half at 4ppm. I figure this is good so I want to keep using it and seeing as I don't have Mobil left I continue on.

Then I read here about all the Iron spikes etc. and this has got me curious.

So one OCI later I dump my Amsoil and put back my trusty (good until this point) Mobil 5w30 back in. I run it for 6K KM and dump it out, then refill with more and drive to 6K KM and send in a UOA. I get back the results and the Iron is at 48ppm!
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Scared for dear life, and before reading Doug's article I empty it out and put back in my Amsoil and drive it 6K KM and do a UOA and it's back to around 4ppm again.
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Very happy that I adverted disaster I check the next fill of Amsoil and again I see 4ppm.

I then read Doug's article in the meantime and see that higher Iron PPM doesn't necessarily equate to higher wear.

I put Mobil back in for one last try and again it tests around 40ppm.
shocked2.gif


While I didn't notice any performance change or metal filings in my oil pan, on the drain plug or in my EAO filter with FilterMag there is definitely something spiking these numbers in my engine when it comes to Iron and I just can't sleep at night IMO, taking a chance that I could be risking the engine with these numbers.

So I switched back to Amsoil and stuck with it. Since then I have tried Pennzoil Platinum and some Dino's that peaked my interest and none of them that I had a UOA done on showed the Iron levels that M1 did.

I'm not saying that this in anyway equates to M1 causing wear, but I sure as heck am not going to see in time what happens.

If Amsoil isn't that much more than M1 and doesn't report those same elevated numbers to me it seems like a logical choice.

Cheap insurance I guess...
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: pickled
I have to say that I agree with Buster...it's wear. M1 does well at keeping things clean and takes heat though. They sell it on the cheap in Wally.


That`s always made me wonder...........would an oil that cleans impeccably have to sacrifice on lubrication? While on the other hand,an oil that lubricates better be a bit weak on the cleanliness? Maybe a good compromise would be to run a synthetic every other oil change? :^)


I think it depends on the mechanism for cleaning. If a significant amount of the cleaning is done by one of the base oils, then I can believe that it could prevent anti-wear additive buildup on the metal. If it's done by detergents like calcium (which may still fight with the AW additives for surface area) I think the metal may still be better protected, even though the coverage of the AW additives may not be as full as it would otherwise be. I think the high calcium levels in Pennzoil Platinum, and the typical low iron numbers in UOA's might attest to this.

I'm wondering if Mobil 1's use of Alkylated Naphthalene has anything to do with this. (no, I didn't read this entire thread, so if it was mentioned I missed it)
 
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