Zimmerman trial BITOG style....

[Drew99GT]

It's not against the law to follow someone, even if 9/11 dispatch tells you not to. They have no legally authority. Zimmerman's lawyers made that crystal clear.

And how do you know he "confronted" Trayvon? Even if he did, and even if he started the fight, or it was a mutual scuffle, if Trayvon was winning tot he point of causing Zimmerman to incur injuries and fear great bodily harm, he has the right to use force to stop the aggression. The law is clear, as is the case law in Florida.

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
It's not against the law to follow someone, even if 9/11 dispatch tells you not to. They have no legally authority. Zimmerman's lawyers made that crystal clear.


Um, actually, it quite can be against the law to "follow" someone. I mean, can a stalker follow his ex-girlfriend all around town then? I'm pretty sure its not against the law to walk down the street either.

Quote:
And how do you know he "confronted" Trayvon?


Um, because he was like following him and can clearly be heard voicing contempt for "these guys" always getting "away" in the recording as he opened his car door and got out...

BTW, how do you know he didn't?

Quote:
Even if he did, and even if he started the fight, or it was a mutual scuffle, if Trayvon was winning tot he point of causing Zimmerman to incur injuries and fear great bodily harm, he has the right to use force to stop the aggression. The law is clear, as is the case law in Florida.


Awesome! We've discovered a new way to legally kill people! Start a fight, get your [censored] kicked a bit, then shoot them. And it was amazing that Zimmerman was having great bodily harm inflicted on him, yet managed to get his pistol upholstered and inflict a fatal shot...

I mean, really?

 

[FXjohn]

people like Zimmerman shouldn't own firearms. clearly he could have been the more mature and figured out a way to either not get into a fight or have his gun pointed at the kid so he didn't charge him

 

[JimPghPA]

Originally Posted By: AVB
Why does anyone think a stand your ground law is stupid?
Does anyone who disagrees with it know what it means?

It only means you don't have to try to retreat before defending yourself if you are attacked. It doesn't mean you can shoot someone just because they punched or shoved you. The level of force you are allowed to use to defend yourself depends on the level of force that you are being attacked with. You could use deadly force on someone if they were trying to bash your head in with a baseball bat, but not if it is just a wiffle ball bat.



But what if it were fists and the concrete below your head that was being used to damage your head?

 

[FXjohn]

Originally Posted By: JimPghPA

But what if it were fists and the concrete below your head that was being used to damage your head?


why would that be different from any other self defense law?

 

[JimPghPA]

There is a local religious group that commonly sends out pairs of young adults dressed in clean ironed white shirts and black dress pants. These young adults will gladly tell anyone who wants to listen about their religion. But they will also step up and help people in need in any way they can. The point here is that these young adults ALWAYS travel in pairs. Perhaps it would be a very good idea to somehow have people who want to patrol neighborhoods be educated about the advantages of traveling in pairs. That alone may have prevented this entire mess.

 

[FXjohn]

Originally Posted By: JimPghPA
There is a local religious group that commonly sends out pairs of young adults dressed in clean ironed white shirts and black dress pants. These young adults will gladly tell anyone who wants to listen about their religion. But they will also step up and help people in need in any way they can. The point here is that these young adults ALWAYS travel in pairs. Perhaps it would be a very good idea to somehow have people who want to patrol neighborhoods be educated about the advantages of traveling in pairs. That alone may have prevented this entire mess.



I agree with that. and video recording would be a good idea.
I'm just glad I don't need neighborhood patrol where I am

 

[fdcg27]

At 6' and 158 lbs, TM cannot have been a very formidable opponent.
I'm 5'6", and at 158 lbs, I'm really skinny.
At my current buck seventy five, I'm built looking, not fat looking.
My point is that a six foot guy at 158 lbs is a stick with no real strength.
This also suggests the use of drugs more serious than weed by TM.
If he had been able to throw a real punch, the paunchy, out of shape Z would have been down with one blow.
The fact that Zimmerman was able to draw and fire his weapon indicates that he was not likely in mortal danger.
Too bad that George had a gun instead of some ability to defend himself.
The goal in unarmed self defense is to inflict punishment on your assailant.
Properly placed blows to the stomach, groin, neck or face will get an assailant off of you.
Grab and pull at nose, ears or jewels will cause real damage and will get an assailant off of you.
Getting hold of a finger or two and bending them backwards until they break will get an assailant off of you.
A finger poked hard into an eye will get an assailant off of you.
A hand chop across the bridge of the nose will bring tears to an assailant's eyes and will get him off of you.
Lots of options in a fight.
The coward's first resort is to shoot and kill an assailant.
This was not a situation in which deadly force was needed or justified.
For that matter, a can of pepper would have had TM on the ground crying his eyes out without killing him.
Lots of options beyond deadly force.
Too bad George brought a gun to what should have been an unarmed roll on the ground between two guys who had no clue of how to really fight.
The whole question of who started the festivities is silly and smacks of grade school.
It takes two to tango, and George clearly played a role in getting things going.
That he then shot a kid dead whom he should have been able to man up to and fight off is sad.
This whole event is sad and I'm not sure that GZ should be found guilty of anything, while I deplore his actions.
He was scared, but it was he who decided to play amatuer policeman.

 

[FXjohn]

agree with most of the above. and acting as a member of an neighborhood patrol he is held to a higher standard.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
a can of pepper would have had TM on the ground crying his eyes out without killing him.


Mace,pepper spray,etc will have no effect on someone enraged and assaulting someone. Happened right in front of me one time. It took several of us to get the guy who got sprayed off of the guy he was assaulting. The spray to his eyes only made him angrier and the assault became more violent.

 

[Swarmlord]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
At 6' and 158 lbs, TM cannot have been a very formidable opponent.
I'm 5'6", and at 158 lbs, I'm really skinny.
At my current buck seventy five, I'm built looking, not fat looking.
My point is that a six foot guy at 158 lbs is a stick with no real strength.
This also suggests the use of drugs more serious than weed by TM.
If he had been able to throw a real punch, the paunchy, out of shape Z would have been down with one blow.
The fact that Zimmerman was able to draw and fire his weapon indicates that he was not likely in mortal danger.
Too bad that George had a gun instead of some ability to defend himself.
The goal in unarmed self defense is to inflict punishment on your assailant.
Properly placed blows to the stomach, groin, neck or face will get an assailant off of you.
Grab and pull at nose, ears or jewels will cause real damage and will get an assailant off of you.
Getting hold of a finger or two and bending them backwards until they break will get an assailant off of you.
A finger poked hard into an eye will get an assailant off of you.
A hand chop across the bridge of the nose will bring tears to an assailant's eyes and will get him off of you.
Lots of options in a fight.
The coward's first resort is to shoot and kill an assailant.
This was not a situation in which deadly force was needed or justified.
For that matter, a can of pepper would have had TM on the ground crying his eyes out without killing him.
Lots of options beyond deadly force.
Too bad George brought a gun to what should have been an unarmed roll on the ground between two guys who had no clue of how to really fight.
The whole question of who started the festivities is silly and smacks of grade school.
It takes two to tango, and George clearly played a role in getting things going.
That he then shot a kid dead whom he should have been able to man up to and fight off is sad.
This whole event is sad and I'm not sure that GZ should be found guilty of anything, while I deplore his actions.
He was scared, but it was he who decided to play amatuer policeman.


Right, because while in a fist fight EVERYONE can keep their wits about and process stuff logically enough to know exactly how to gain the upper hand.

Nobody, save TM and GZ, know exactly how the events unfolded and saying GZ should have done this or not done that is arrogant and foolish. Also, as anyone over the age of 10 is well aware, size doesn't matter in a fight.

A lot of assumptions from keyboard rangers in this thread...

 

[fdcg27]

Good pepper will work on anyone all of the time.
The typical civilian grade stuff may not.
You can't fight what you can't see, which is what makes real pepper effective.

 

[JANDSZIRKLE]

I just hope in some way, both sides, and families involved can find some peace in the situation.

Its a horrible situation, and the media is making more out of it than it should.

Guilty verdict or not, I believe our judicial system will do its job correctly and the outcome will hopefully resolve the issues at hand.

 

[fdcg27]

I work in an environment where it may be necessary to use unarmed self defense skills at any time.
We are tested in USD at least once each year, and many of us practice on a regular basis.
Many of us are also certified in pepper (and, yeah, it works great) as well as the PR24, in addition to traditional firearms.
How about you?

 

[97tbird]

Certainly not a valid 'argument', but watching some of the trial videos, GZ looks around constantly, like a cornered person with his eyes darting around in a VERY guilty manner.
Just an observation, proves nothing.

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
It's not against the law to follow someone, even if 9/11 dispatch tells you not to. They have no legally authority. Zimmerman's lawyers made that crystal clear.


Um, actually, it quite can be against the law to "follow" someone. I mean, can a stalker follow his ex-girlfriend all around town then? I'm pretty sure its not against the law to walk down the street either.

Quote:
And how do you know he "confronted" Trayvon?


Um, because he was like following him and can clearly be heard voicing contempt for "these guys" always getting "away" in the recording as he opened his car door and got out...

BTW, how do you know he didn't?

Quote:
Even if he did, and even if he started the fight, or it was a mutual scuffle, if Trayvon was winning tot he point of causing Zimmerman to incur injuries and fear great bodily harm, he has the right to use force to stop the aggression. The law is clear, as is the case law in Florida.


Awesome! We've discovered a new way to legally kill people! Start a fight, get your [censored] kicked a bit, then shoot them. And it was amazing that Zimmerman was having great bodily harm inflicted on him, yet managed to get his pistol upholstered and inflict a fatal shot...

I mean, really?


Who called 9/11??? Really? Your post is full of non sense hyperbole. Following a stranger as a neighborhood watchman is not stalking, and equating it to stalking an ex girlfriend is typical loss of argument strawman material. Stick to the facts and testimony of witnesses of the case. Was he charged with stalking? No.

 

[pbm]

Why didn't Trayvon Martin call the police instead of becoming the aggressor?....and instead of calling that fat chick?

 

[FXjohn]

Originally Posted By: pbm
Why didn't Trayvon Martin call the police instead of becoming the aggressor?....and instead of calling that fat chick?


because he's a dumb youngster. why wasn't zimmerman able to handle this situation? I say he's not the kind of person who should be acting like a cop.

 

[punisher]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Zimmerman is kind of a hothead punk with a not so squeaky clean criminal history. Treyvon was a thug; he was into fighting and general thugary. When 2 characters like that meet, bad things usually happen. BUT, based purely on the law and the facts/testimony given in court, even if Zimmerman started the fight, he ended up on the bottom getting his head pounded in and he should walk on both 2nd degree murder and manslaughter.

That's the way I see it. If Zimmerman walks, he'll be sued in civil court until the day he dies and he basically won't be able to be seen in public for years to come. His life is over regardless of the outcome. Well, he'll probably get some lucrative book deals!


Exactly.

From the way the law is written, and the fact that Zimmerman COULD have legitimately feared death or grievous bodily harm at the hands of Martin, then it was a legal shoot. Zimmerman did not have to actually be in danger of the above "death or grievous bodily harm", he had to BELIEVE he was. The prosecution must prove he wasn't in fear of the above, and I did not see that. It is a huge burden for the prosecution to overcome. I cannot fathom how this case was even brought to trial, but I am sure politics played a role.

With that being said, I think Zimmerman is an idiot who started, and likely escalated a situation that resulted in the death of a 17 year old. Being guilty of bad judgment is not the same as being guilty of a crime.

The law itself, self defense, "Stand Your Ground", you can argue until the cows come home.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: pbm
Why didn't Trayvon Martin call the police instead of becoming the aggressor?....and instead of calling that fat chick?


Precious` testimony was hillarious! "I caint read no curssif!",when she said she`d written it. "Don`t ax me again,I DONE TOLD YOU!" when the attorney was questioning her. I say throw the case out of court,witness already was caught lying on the stand.