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- Jul 15, 2023
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I think the future holds a solution to this problem, whether it be physical or chemical reductions in dendrite formation in lithium ion, or using other metals for the cathode, like sodium.
Yet another grid-scale battery fire
- Thread starter OVERKILL
- Start date
Pretty much every UPS uses sealed lead acid batteries. Sometimes they puff up when they get old but that’s about it.
Just read an article. Still burning almost two weeks later; has consumed over 5 MILLION gallons of water (in a state that imposes drought restrictions on its citizens while refusing to add additional dam storage); the water used to extinguish flames also provides a method for electrical arcs to reflash the fires; hydrogen cyanide is present at IDLH levels within a significant radius… man, when will we finally say “ENOUGH” to all of these green energy benefits?
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
This is what I’ve said is stupid - and said it for years now …
Battery fire at storage facility in Otay Mesa keeps reigniting
OTAY MESA — The long-smoldering battery plant fire in Otay Mesa neared the four-day mark Sunday with no indication that full containment was imminent.Cal Fire Capt. Brent Pascua sai…www.sandiegouniontribune.com
The Gateway Energy Storage facility in California caught fire 3 times over 5 days, and, at the time of the article, was still being babysat by firefighters due to the risk of additional flareups.
The 250/250MWh facility entered service late 2020.
EV’s must have batteries - but, stationary batteries used in this manner just yells poor judgment trying to prop up unreliable sources and driving up the cost of precious resources the EV’s need …
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
My current network rack UPS is an APC Lithium one. I'd assume APC has done their due diligence, but I guess we'll see, lol.
As these technologies spread, how can the concerns not spread at a similar rate at the very least?
Who really thinks putting a randomly activated arsonists all across our homes and workplaces is a good idea? Lead-acid and AGM have their limitations as far as storage goes, but I certainly don’t remember them having this propensity for self-immolation.
IMO this highlights the need to wait for proven technologies for battery/energy storage, rather than literally destroying several industries (that employ millions of people, no less) in order to forcibly replace it with one that self-destructs on its own timeline.
EVs and grid-scale storage may be viable some day in some guise, but today it seems like the risk to life, property, and society is way too great to force it as the sole path forward. Nukes have been proven for over 70 years especially in @overkill’s familiar CANDU and also naval-style reactors. Let’s be smart about this.
To store electrical energy, I prefer old school hydraulic pump storage to battery technology. Water can't catch fire, but I suppose dams can leak and fail.
Agree… dam failures would suck, but I would like to think in today’s day and age, especially decades after we designed and built the Hoover Dam, that we collectively have the know-how, techniques, and materials to build dams that will last almost indefinitely. Plus, the created lakes will add to the local economies. Seems like a win-win.
I read somewhere that the rainstorms that hit CA this year over about a monthlong span were around 7 TRILLION gallons of water, and that that could have satisfied all of their needs for several years… but they don’t have enough dam storage, and also have some dumb law that 75% of the LA River must be allowed to flow into the ocean because of some 3” long smelt.. meanwhile water prices are crazy and crops consume a supermajority of the water. So many EASY things could be done to improve the water situation in CA… but then there wouldn’t be any emergency…
I read somewhere that the rainstorms that hit CA this year over about a monthlong span were around 7 TRILLION gallons of water, and that that could have satisfied all of their needs for several years… but they don’t have enough dam storage, and also have some dumb law that 75% of the LA River must be allowed to flow into the ocean because of some 3” long smelt.. meanwhile water prices are crazy and crops consume a supermajority of the water. So many EASY things could be done to improve the water situation in CA… but then there wouldn’t be any emergency…
My view is this sort of thing is mostly virtue signalling to placate the masses demanding unicorns and rainbows. Even it's proponents know grid scale battery systems not practical or even practicable. All that have been built so far are tiny demonstrators compared to the scale of consumption but see how expensive, fragile and dangerous they are to the public and the environment.
California, brace yourselves for >$1 per kilowatt average prices.
California, brace yourselves for >$1 per kilowatt average prices.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Grid scale battery fires happen at an astonishingly higher rate than any other battery fire including EV's, laptops, phones and of course battery backups. I'm far more concerned about my son's e-scooter battery randomly igniting than the APC branded one in my UPS, I'm quite sure APC has done their homework.
The ROO and the SIZE of these grid scale battery fires truly boggles, and there have been facilities that have experienced multiple fires. If anything else was experiencing this rate of failure, people would be losing their minds. It would be like 1 in 5 gas furnaces just randomly burning down your house to put that in perspective.
“Shut your face and get that data out of here; this is the path we’ve chosen for you plebes”
The only outcome I see down this path is large, widespread outages as these installations multiply and predictably fail; followed by insane rate increases to cover the maintenance, repairs, and insurance costs of these things. Meanwhile, hydro & nuclear (and even NG) are all easily scalable, have very good and known availability rates, and in event of failures are usually easily controlled and have limited impact due to installation segregation.
Heck, Chernobyl was an outlier on so many levels; nobody in NA uses that reactor type and we’ve got several methods now that are very low risk even in failure. Then you’ve got all the containments.
As a side note OK, what (if you can discuss) are some of the remediation methods needed when they refuel Bruce/Darlington or the CANDU units? I know we’re a little off topic but maybe you can contrast to the remediation that will be needed for the mess San Diego is facing?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
CANDU's refuel online. We do however have units offline for refurbishment, but with 18 operating reactors and 12GW of low utilization gas capacity, that's not really much of an issue.
Lake Wholford, lake Hodges, and lake Henshaw in Northern San Diego County all have failing dams and are not permitted to be filled anywhere near capacity. Wholford by far the smallest is the only one having any work done. CA better wise up.
Here’s the State of CA’s inundation map:
Web Map Viewer
It’s not very friendly on a mobile device.
