There are also some motorcycle JASO rated oils that are not officially registered with JASO and lack the JASO logo, like Valvoline M/C oils. Then some cycle specific oils are registered with JASO but lack the logo. If an oil like Rottella T4 says it meets JASO then they must have done enough testing on it to make that statement, even though it’s not offically registered with JASO.
Yamaha Seca 750, 1982 model
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An oil I'm very fond of, Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w50, is not JASO certified.
Digging in to the Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 turns out to be a bit convoluted because it doesn't even say "Meets JASO MA, MA1 or MA2" on the bottle or on their website (linked below). All it says on the bottle is what's underlined in red, which just eludes to that it's OK for wet clutch use and to also use oil approved for wet clutch use. And even on Mobil's website they never say it meets any JASO spec or even mention wet clutch use (link below). Some other brands of motorcycle V-Twin oils actually say "Meets JASO MA2" on the bottles.
Then from the Mobil 1 website (snapshot below) they explain the difference between their M/C oil and automotive oil which I think some people don't keep in mind with JASO rated oil, and that's the anti-wear aspect for the transmission in a shared sump system. JASO rated oil isn't just about the friction level for the wet clutch, but typically also have higher levels of additives that are wet clutch comparable that to help protect the transmission gears too - see bullet #4 in the Mobil info below. Transmission gear wear/pitting is one of the aspects discussed in the JASO T903 spec.
https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants...s/our-products/products/mobil-1-v-twin-20w-50
This is from the PDF info shown below on Mobil's website, link bellow downloads the PDF:
https://www.mobil.com/lubricants/-/...-1/pdf/emsga-mobil1productguide-v2-9-1-22.pdf
Lots of Phosphorus and Zinc in the V-Twin oil. The Racing 4T shows a JASO rating, but not the V-Twin even though Mobil says it's "suitable for wet clutch" on the bottle label with no mention of meeting any JASO spec.
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Folks getting there undies in a bundle about Rotella having or having not a JASO rating is ridiculous. Top tier motorcycle oils don't have it.
Redline 10w40 and 20w50 MC oils have 2260 PPM of zinc and 130 of moly. Used to have 500 of moly. Bottle has always said JASO MA/MA2.
Companies are not worried about the rating or not rating when the proof is the experience for decades with their oils in engines and sumps.
Redline 10w40 and 20w50 MC oils have 2260 PPM of zinc and 130 of moly. Used to have 500 of moly. Bottle has always said JASO MA/MA2.
Companies are not worried about the rating or not rating when the proof is the experience for decades with their oils in engines and sumps.
Nobody has their "undies in a bunch" when Rotella says it "Meets JASO MA/MA2". That's better than a jug of oil not saying anything about JASO.
Top tier motorcycle oils will always say they meet JASO and some will be registered with JASO. Show me a marketed top tier motorcycle oil that has zero reference to meeting JASO specs on the bottle.
If you call or contact any oil maker that does not specifically say on the bottle that it meets JASO or some other "it's OK to use in wet clutches" kind of text (like the Mobil V-Twin example above) and you ask them if it's OK to use it in your wet clutch motorcycle they will tell you they don't recommend to use it. Then the cycle owner's bike becomes the "wet clutch test machine".
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I disagree, absolutely riders get undies in a bundle because Rotella says it meet specs and doesn't have the official symbol on it.
The predictable argument is why trust what they say when they haven't been willing to certify it officially. There are a number of threads we both have been part of where that becomes part of the conversation. And at some point the sky is falling in those threads.
Top tier oils that don't have a rating and have been proven in motorcycle use, proves
IMO, the contradiction JASO is with respect to reality, and guys hang their hat on it. A top tier company such as Mobil states it's suitable for clutch lubrication in literature, but doesn't rate it JASO, is not going to hang their hat on something they can't back up or know isn't true.
I doubt Mobil would tell a caller on the phone 20w50 VTwin is not suitable for clutches/not recommended when literature says it is.
The predictable argument is why trust what they say when they haven't been willing to certify it officially. There are a number of threads we both have been part of where that becomes part of the conversation. And at some point the sky is falling in those threads.
Top tier oils that don't have a rating and have been proven in motorcycle use, proves
IMO, the contradiction JASO is with respect to reality, and guys hang their hat on it. A top tier company such as Mobil states it's suitable for clutch lubrication in literature, but doesn't rate it JASO, is not going to hang their hat on something they can't back up or know isn't true.
I doubt Mobil would tell a caller on the phone 20w50 VTwin is not suitable for clutches/not recommended when literature says it is.
I was referring to people in these discussions on BITOG. Like explained, there's difference between zero info about "Meets JASO xyz" and being officially registered with JASO. I've shown examples of some main brand M/C oils that fits that over the years in these M/C oil discussions. But they do say "Meets JASO MA/MA2" on the bottle. I will not use any oil that doesn't at least say that. I highly doubt they slap that on the bottle from out of their behinds without knowing it will at least meet the three different SAE #2 fiction spes called out in JASO T903.
I've use oils that are rated JASO on the bottle but not officially registered with JASO. As long as it's a well know brand specifically marketed M/C oil then I'm fine with it. You won't find a marketed M/C oil that at least says "Meets JASO xyz" on the bottle.
Like said in every M/C oil discusion, each cycle's wet clutch is different and sure some non-JASO rated oil could work. But that doesn't mean they might have a shorter life over the long run either. Mobil wouldn't even say it's OK for a wet clutch on the bottle if they know it wasn't. But it is stange they didn't put the "Meets JASO xxy" on the bottle unless it only meets some fo the JASO requirements.
Would you use a motor oil that says absolutely nothing about wet clutch use on the bottle or thier website and make your bike a "wet clutch test machine"?
Maybe you missed my point - go back and look. Call Mobil and ask them if they recommend using a automotive motor oil that says absolutely nothing about JASO or wet clutch use on it. I bet they are not going to say: "Sure, we all know JASO is a bunch of non-sense ... go for it".
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I didn't mention anything about Automotive oils, we are talking about motorcycle oils. With that, Rotella is an HDEO which is not an Automotive oil. I think that point was missed as well as the point guys will get up in arms that it says JASO on the bottle but doesn't have the stamp. You and I are coming from the same place with respect to the oils we would most likely put in a shared sump.
What you said in the above post, you would not use Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w50 if it was an appropriate grade in a shared sump because it doesn't have a JASO spec mentioned, though Mobil says it's safe to use.
To say bikes have different wet clutch systems with respect to a shared sump, there is not much difference, if any, between a Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha, or other mainline manufacturer clutch. They use the same types of steels and same types of fiber plates unless it's exotica and they're using something different which isn't the mainstream this discussion, in my opinion, is addressing.
I wouldn't use a 10w30 or lighter grade oil in a motorcycle because they are defacto energy conserving unless JASO. And will quickly shear out of grade in engines that routinely run 3500 to 4,000 RPM at legal Road speeds compared to cars that run closer to 2000 RPM and don't have gears to deal with.
However 10w-40, 20w50, we've been over this, we are in different places with respect to what we understand to be what a friction modifier is other than traditional additives.8
But wouldn't it be great for somebody that is in the oil industry to identify the friction modifiers in an oil that are outside of the traditional additives that are used to give them that rating? Or is it the viscosity itself?
As I said above we've been over this, I will use a 10w40, 20w50 non JASO oil in a bike and run it with confidence if it was a quality oil. Automotive oils in those grades generally do not have the robust base oil and resistance to shear that motorcycle specific oils do.
For that reason I have no reason to run MC specific oils in the bike that started this thread because oil changes come fairly frequently because of contaminants not oil breakdown. 20w50 Automotive oils are not energy conserving and any UGM forum will back up the use over millions of miles of Automotive grade 20w50.
However, if it was the end of the world, a clutch would do fine. Oil would would be changed more often because it will lose grade, shift feel and quality falls off. I expect a 10w40 or 20w50 or whatever grade to remain that grade.
What you said in the above post, you would not use Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w50 if it was an appropriate grade in a shared sump because it doesn't have a JASO spec mentioned, though Mobil says it's safe to use.
To say bikes have different wet clutch systems with respect to a shared sump, there is not much difference, if any, between a Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha, or other mainline manufacturer clutch. They use the same types of steels and same types of fiber plates unless it's exotica and they're using something different which isn't the mainstream this discussion, in my opinion, is addressing.
I wouldn't use a 10w30 or lighter grade oil in a motorcycle because they are defacto energy conserving unless JASO. And will quickly shear out of grade in engines that routinely run 3500 to 4,000 RPM at legal Road speeds compared to cars that run closer to 2000 RPM and don't have gears to deal with.
However 10w-40, 20w50, we've been over this, we are in different places with respect to what we understand to be what a friction modifier is other than traditional additives.8
But wouldn't it be great for somebody that is in the oil industry to identify the friction modifiers in an oil that are outside of the traditional additives that are used to give them that rating? Or is it the viscosity itself?
As I said above we've been over this, I will use a 10w40, 20w50 non JASO oil in a bike and run it with confidence if it was a quality oil. Automotive oils in those grades generally do not have the robust base oil and resistance to shear that motorcycle specific oils do.
For that reason I have no reason to run MC specific oils in the bike that started this thread because oil changes come fairly frequently because of contaminants not oil breakdown. 20w50 Automotive oils are not energy conserving and any UGM forum will back up the use over millions of miles of Automotive grade 20w50.
However, if it was the end of the world, a clutch would do fine. Oil would would be changed more often because it will lose grade, shift feel and quality falls off. I expect a 10w40 or 20w50 or whatever grade to remain that grade.
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Mobil 1 Racing 10W-40 is API SN and JASO MA/MA2.
Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 is rated as API SJ oil which standard came out in 1996-2004. JASO MA/MA2 came out in 2006.
Also, on all bottles V-Twin oil (older and newer) says: 3-Way Protection: Engine, Transmission/Gears, Primary Chaincase (Clutch).
Older bottle
Newer bottle
If you call or contact any oil maker that does not specifically say on the bottle that it meets JASO or some other "it's OK to use in wet clutches" kind of text (like the Mobil V-Twin example above) and you ask them if it's OK to use it in your wet clutch motorcycle they will tell you they don't recommend to use it. Then the cycle owner's bike becomes the "wet clutch test machine".
^^^ See my quote above yours. My comment was about asking an oil maker if they would recommend using an oil that speaks of zero use in a wet clutch. They are not going to recommend using an auto PCMO or HDEO that says nothing about wet clutch use. That's the point you keep missing in my comment. Of course if they mention JASO or it's "OK" to use in a wet clutch they are going to recommend its use.
I would prefer that it at least says "Meets JASO MA/MA2" on the bottle. But the Mobil V-Twin on the label does say: "also suitable for wet clutch" ... even though they don't even say that on their website for the V-Twin oil. Take that as you will. I'd use it over an oil that says absolutely zero about JASO or "wet clutch use".
I'm talking about the design performance of the clutch to hold the max torque and power of the engine it's on with respect to different friction levels of all possible oils that may be used in the engine. Of course they are all basically mechanically designed the same, but they are not all exactly matching in torque and HP holding performance based on the friction level of the oil. That's what JASO was trying to do is ensure the oil would work in a broad spectrum of motorcycle wet clutch designs.
I wouldn't use a 10W-30 even if it was JASO rated ... there are some out there. Maybe if I put a front ski on my bike and road it in the snowy mountains, lol.
It's not just the viscosity. If that was the case JASO wouldn't have ever materialized and exist and every xW-40 and higher oil in the world would work in every wet clutch motorcycle ever made. Been through all of that already.
I thought you said in another thread that you use oils that at least says "Meets JASO xyz" (but not officially registered with JASO). You can make your bike a wet clutch test machine, but I won't every do it. I don't want to be messing with possible clutch issues due to non-JASO rated oil. Others can play 2-wheel test lab, lol.
Just because it's not "Energy Conserving" doesn't mean it's automatically going to meet JASO specs. Like said, if that was the case then every motorcycle maker wouldn't even mention JASO specs in the owner's manual. And the automotive oils were not same back in 1982 when that bike was made, and JASO didn't exist until 1998. Some people think because the OM in 1982 (or before 1998) didn't mention JASO than any oil is fine to run. I don't have that viewpoint because oil formulations have change since then.
Just because it stays in grade doesn't mean the friction level is good from day one. There have been plenty of people on many motorcycle boards who have reported clutch slippage with non-JASO rated oils. Not every motorcycle can go that route, and using my bikes as a wet clutch test machine isn't on my to do list.
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See post 43. Only mention of wet clutch use is on the bottle label ... the part I underlined in red.
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How's the Seca?? 
We should just merge our threads. They've become all about JASO.
We should just merge our threads. They've become all about JASO.
We're not getting anywhere with this in terms of learning anything new. It's picking out minutiae and semantics and not reading into what's being said, which is a reasonable observation.
Look at the bottom of Z's post number 43, which he re-referenced in the post directly above this. I referenced it in the multi-quote reply you shared. It has been overlooked at least twice now.
It's quoting and a litany with every post at this point, not sure the overall usefulness for either of us at this point or anybody who will read this thread afterwards.
Look at the bottom of Z's post number 43, which he re-referenced in the post directly above this. I referenced it in the multi-quote reply you shared. It has been overlooked at least twice now.
It's quoting and a litany with every post at this point, not sure the overall usefulness for either of us at this point or anybody who will read this thread afterwards.
It's the JASO worship at this point IMO. Anecdotal evidence is being brought up of people using non-jaso oils and experiencing slippage, but you can also find plenty of people experiencing clutch slippage while using jaso oils.
And the kicker in this particular discussion is that JASO didn't even exist when this bike was built, but nope it's gotta be JASO no matter what.
And the kicker in this particular discussion is that JASO didn't even exist when this bike was built, but nope it's gotta be JASO no matter what.
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A little known fact on the Seca, of course you know it. The front brake MC is not on the handlebar. there is a cable from the lever to the MC.
How's the braking feel with that in between?
How's the braking feel with that in between?
Owned the Seca 650 and it was a pleasure to ride EXCEPT for one thing. The center of gravity was too high w/the huge gas tank. (Especially apparent w/a passenger.) I really regretted not driving to a BMW dealer a distance away and not buying an R65. The price was not that much more for the BMW. I have a feeling I would have keep the BMW a whole lot longer!
Any time there is discussion about motorcycle oil JASO is going to come up.
Like said, if someone wants to experiment with non-JASO motor oils and use their bike as wet clutch test machine then go for it. If they think it works, then great it's not my cycle. There's a reason JASO materialized ... it's not all "fake" like some people seem to believe.
I pointed out that the Mobil V-Twin mentions it's "also suitable for wet clutch" use if that's what you're referring to. As mentioned, kind of puzzling that Mobil just didn't say it "Meets JASO MA/MA2" on the bottle instead of just that mention of suitable for wet clutch use.
Might not be useful to guys who don't care about JASO since it seems to go against everything they may or may not believe about motorcycle oil.
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I'd bet there are way more cases of clutch slippage using non-JASO rated oil.
Like mentiioned ealier, oil formulations have changed a lot since these bikes were built. Just because JASO didn't exist then doesn't mean every motor oil on the market is going to work well in a wet clutch motorcycle. And transmission wear protection is also something that is part of what a motorcycle oil is formulated to address.
I'm trying to get the topic back to the bike I was posting about, this oil stuff is going around in circles. Start another thread and I'll join in.
