xW-40 vs xW-30 for Mercedes V6 M272?

[OVERKILL]

It was a rather rhetorical question. Again, approvals are about meeting the bare min. They are still of value as that guarantees that you meet the min. But no means promise you the max. They should be more valuable for people that are not on this forum and don't have access to vast information on oil quality

A40 = oil has passed simulated lapping of the Nurburgring followed by a tear-down with measurements in a Porsche gasoline twin turbo engine. 229.5 consists of a litany of actual gasoline engine tests.

What comparable performance tests do you feel Rotella has that establishes a "bare minimum" at a higher bar?

 

[edyvw]

It was a rather rhetorical question. Again, approvals are about meeting the bare min. They are still of value as that guarantees that you meet the min. But no means promise you the max. They should be more valuable for people that are not on this forum and don't have access to vast information on oil quality

The key is: what is “bare minimum.”
You obviously don’t grasp that part.

 

[kschachn]

It was a rather rhetorical question. Again, approvals are about meeting the bare min. They are still of value as that guarantees that you meet the min. But no means promise you the max. They should be more valuable for people that are not on this forum and don't have access to vast information on oil quality

How do you measure the max? And where is that spelled out?

Approvals such as A40 and 225.9 aren’t ranges. And they are anything but a “min” in terms of performance. Are you suggesting Rotella meets the max?

 

[folzag2]

Your engine can run on MB 229.5 and MB229.51/52.
That engine in Europe ran on MB229.51 since 2009.

Yes, I was aware. But my question was really about slightly thinner 30 weight being ok for this engine, or is there reason to favor a 40.

As for long OCI's, both M1 0W40 FS and M1 ESP 0W30 are approved for long drain approvals that require 18k OCI (BMW LL01, or in case of ESP, VW 504.00).

I was not aware about that about ESP.

Personally, I would run Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40 if available at a good price. Running M1 0W40FS won't do any harm. It is exceptional oil. Base stocks matter, but what really matters is the final product.

I mean, the 5qt jugs from Walmart are all within a couple dollars of each other delivered to your door.

Yeah, they are all exceptional products, but ESP seems to be more exceptional, all things equal, which for me means 5qt jug pricing which implies the 30 weight ESP, which is not necessarily all things equal anymore.

Ok, interesting take about PPE. May I ask your reason why?

There's very little difference between a Euro 30 and Euro 40 in terms of viscosity. The 30 is at the highest end of HTHS for a 30 and 40s are at the low end.

Right. But it is a difference, which prompted me to wonder and to ask.

Thanks.

 

[jsean]

Just continue running a MB229.5 or 229.51/2 as others have mentioned. I’ve run M1 5w40, M1 0w40 and Pennzoil Platinum Euro depending on availability, pricing, etc.

Tons of old threads on Benzworld about suitable oils for the M272.

 

[Plumb Bob]

Just continue running a MB229.5 or 229.51/2 as others have mentioned.

Indeed. Leave Rotella where it belongs: Heavy Duty Diesels.

 

[folzag2]

Just continue running a MB229.5 or 229.51/2 as others have mentioned. I’ve run M1 5w40, M1 0w40 and Pennzoil Platinum Euro depending on availability, pricing, etc.

Tons of old threads on Benzworld about suitable oils for the M272.

It's hard not to cuss. Everything mentioned in the OP is 229.5/51. So, yeah, I know. I'm also not interested in old threads about old oils. This is a new thread about new oil, albeit in an old engine.

The question was not about selecting 229.5 or 229.51. The question was between 40 weight w/o PAO & esters and a 30 weight with PAO and esters.

 

[folzag2]

Have you thought about Rotella? Probably that's what I would use if I had your MB. Should not be an issue to find 5quart jugs

You're a troll. You know how I know you're a troll, because a real person would know HDD oils are sold in 4qt jugs, not 5qt jugs. Get your own thread and leave us alone. TYA.

 

[jsean]

It's hard not to cuss. Everything mentioned in the OP is 229.5/51. So, yeah, I know. I'm also not interested in old threads about old oils. This is a new thread about new oil, albeit in an old engine.

The question was not about selecting 229.5 or 229.51. The question was between 40 weight w/o PAO & esters and a 30 weight with PAO and esters.

I think you’re missing the point what folks are telling here. Your vehicle, so it’s your decision at the end.

Doesn’t matter if it’s x40 or x30 - as long as it meets 229.5/51/52. Have you looked up the specs? MB even gives you the entire listing of all oils that meet requirements.

 

[folzag2]

I think you’re missing the point what folks are telling here. Your vehicle, so it’s your decision at the end.

Doesn’t matter if it’s x40 or x30 - as long as it meets 229.5/51/52. Have you looked up the specs? MB even gives you the entire listing of all oils that meet requirements.

If it doesn't matter why do you keep derailing my question with your off-topic non-answers? Rhetorical. Don't answer that.

 

[jsean]

If it doesn't matter why do you keep derailing my question with your off-topic non-answers? Rhetorical. Don't answer that.

Since you claim you know the specs, you’d also know that approved x30 oils are listed and available. So why even start this pointless thread and be snippy with everyone? Rhetorical. Don’t answer that.

 

[folzag2]

Guy with pointless answers -- says he's only ever run 40 weights and moreso just follow the specs, as if the latter has not been said a thousand times before -- gets mad that guy asking OP is mad that another thread is turning pointless because guys with pointless answers keep weighing in with pointless answers.

Original question:

Anybody know how these engines fair on a thinner oil? Does it matter?

 

[chris719]

Right. But it is a difference, which prompted me to wonder and to ask.

The answer is there is no practical difference, or they would not be allowed under the same specifications. I would have zero reservations using a 30 vs 40 Euro oil as long as it was at least 3.5 HTHS.

 

[scrllock]

It's hard not to cuss. Everything mentioned in the OP is 229.5/51. So, yeah, I know. I'm also not interested in old threads about old oils. This is a new thread about new oil, albeit in an old engine.

The question was not about selecting 229.5 or 229.51. The question was between 40 weight w/o PAO & esters and a 30 weight with PAO and esters.

Anybody know how these engines fair on a thinner oil? Does it matter?

The grade isn't really a big difference between the oils at hand (30 grade euro vs M1 0w40). Minor differences in KV100, either could be 3.6 HTHS and be basically identical from a protection standpoint. Remember that HTHS doesn't scale indefinitely. The important thing here is protection after XX,XXX miles. And the only way we can realistically make a determination about which oils meet that is approvals. You can compare UOAs but remember, the purpose of an UOA is to tell you if you can use the oil longer. It does not tell you if the motor is actually doing "better" with one oil or another, just if there is catastrophic failure.

The answer is there is no practical difference, or they would not be allowed under the same specifications. I would have zero reservations using a 30 vs 40 Euro oil as long as it was at least 3.5 HTHS.

this.

 

[edyvw]

Yes, I was aware. But my question was really about slightly thinner 30 weight being ok for this engine, or is there reason to favor a 40.

It is not grade, it is HTHS. The previous version of M1 0W40 had HTHS of 3.6cP. I was running that version on track to 300f (that is when car went into safe mode). I still did 5k OCI. Current M1 0W40 is some 3.7-3.8cP. ESP is 3.5 or bit higher. There are W30 oils with HTHS of 3.6 to 3.7. Pennzoil Euro L 5W30 is 3.68cP as GTL base generally provides higher HTHS.
MB229.5/51/52 requires a minimum HTHS 3.5 REGARDLESS of grade. HPL has several XW30 oils that are creeping to 3.6cP like the previous M1 0W40. Motul X-MAX 0W40 has HTHS of 3.6cP. So, ESP is perfectly fine from a protection standpoint.

Ok, interesting take about PPE. May I ask your reason why?

GTL base is very clean, and provides high HTHS out of similar KV100. I think PPE 5W40 is bit higher than 3.8cP. Also, it generally has very good pour point and low Noack. I used PPE 5W40 on track in BMW too. Here is your talking best off-the-shelf oils. You won't make mistake. I would skip Castrol Edge 5W30 or 5W40 though.

 

[altaylar]

Sorry that the thread got a little off topic after my message. I was just trying to say in my opinion Rotella is a good option for the older engines and in Ferrari forums many people use them for their cars from 90s and early 2000s even though they lack Ferrari approval, and even though an oil having a certain certification is definitely of some value, it should not be ignored or percevied as inferior because it does not, and that Rotella is attractive price wise and easy to find in bigger containers, a point the OP mentioned.

You're a troll. You know how I know you're a troll, because a real person would know HDD oils are sold in 4qt jugs, not 5qt jugs. Get your own thread and leave us alone. TYA.

You are absolutely right, I am a European and I am used to metric units increasing in increments of 10. The imperial units are still confusing for me, so for a moment my mind thought 1 Gal was equal to 5 quarts rather than 4. Again, you are absolutely right, the oil I mentioned is being sold in 4 quart bottles and not 5. My apologies for the confusion

 

[OVERKILL]

Sorry that the thread got a little off topic after my message. I was just trying to say in my opinion Rotella is a good option for the older engines and in Ferrari forums many people use them for their cars from 90s and early 2000s even though they lack Ferrari approval, and even though an oil having a certain certification is definitely of some value, it should not be ignored or percevied as inferior because it does not, and that Rotella is attractive price wise and easy to find in bigger containers, a point the OP mentioned.

People use all manner of things for some perceived benefit, that may be wholly imagined. Engines are shockingly tolerant of "less than ideal" fluids, without tear-downs to establish actual in-service performance compared to something that may be more appropriate, like an A3/B4 lube with a list of formal approvals, there's no merit to the claim that despite it lacking gasoline approvals, that its performance is just as good in gasoline applications.

HDEO's are additivized to deal with diesel soot, and this can negatively impact the performance, to some degree, of the AW package. They often also use different types of ZDDP, again, due to the application being diesel, rather than gasoline, which have different temperature ranges for components and may place different demands on the lubricant, in different areas.

None of this means they will cause rapid, or considerable damage, but it does mean they are potentially suboptimal when used in a gasoline application, as that's not what they were primarily designed for.

HDEO's became popular in gasoline apps this side of the pond primarily due to their price and availability, as they were far easier to get your hands on, and for a considerably lower price, than A3/B4 lubes. That of course changed with the widespread availability of M1 0W-40, but the mythos surrounding HDEO's, most notably Rotella, which many didn't really know why it became popular in the first place, but perpetuated the recommendation, particularly in certain crowds, persists.

 

[altaylar]

I just edited my previous message to add the following, but seeing there is already another post, I am posting this seperately:

PS: I think we all could benefit from being a bit more respectful on this forum. In the end, we are all here over a common interest, and trying to educate ourselves while helping others where we can. My opinion may not align with someone`s and vice versa, and that should be okay. I think there is enough number of people on this forum who think HDEO should only be used for Diesel Cars as well as enough number people who think the dual rated HDEO can be agreat option for gas engines that both opinion do deserve some respect, as well as the holder of those opinions. I was not intending to offend anyone who does not share my opinon.

People use all manner of things for some perceived benefit, that may be wholly imagined. Engines are shockingly tolerant of "less than ideal" fluids, without tear-downs to establish actual in-service performance compared to something that may be more appropriate, like an A3/B4 lube with a list of formal approvals, there's no merit to the claim that despite it lacking gasoline approvals, that its performance is just as good in gasoline applications.

HDEO's are additivized to deal with diesel soot, and this can negatively impact the performance, to some degree, of the AW package. They often also use different types of ZDDP, again, due to the application being diesel, rather than gasoline, which have different temperature ranges for components and may place different demands on the lubricant, in different areas.

None of this means they will cause rapid, or considerable damage, but it does mean they are potentially suboptimal when used in a gasoline application, as that's not what they were primarily designed for.

HDEO's became popular in gasoline apps this side of the pond primarily due to their price and availability, as they were far easier to get your hands on, and for a considerably lower price, than A3/B4 lubes. That of course changed with the widespread availability of M1 0W-40, but the mythos surrounding HDEO's, most notably Rotella, which many didn't really know why it became popular in the first place, but perpetuated the recommendation, particularly in certain crowds, persists.

This is a wonderful information, thanks. I never knew that there were various types of ZDDP optimized for different settings. As far as I know one of the main reasonings behind using these oils in older engines was due flat tappets needing higher ZDDP.

 

[OVERKILL]

I just edited my previous message to add the following, but seeing there is already another post, I am posting this seperately:

PS: I think we all could benefit from being a bit more respectful on this forum. In the end, we are all here over a common interest, and trying to educate ourselves while helping others where we can. My opinion may not align with someone`s and vice versa, and that should be okay. I think there is enough number of people on this forum who think HDEO should only be used for Diesel Cars as well as enough number people who think the dual rated HDEO can be agreat option for gas engines that both opinion do deserve some respect, as well as the holder of those opinions. I was not intending to offend anyone who does not share my opinon.



This is a wonderful information, thanks. I never knew that there were various types of ZDDP optimized for different settings. As far as I know one of the main reasonings behind using these oils in older engines was due flat tappets needing higher ZDDP.

Yes, them having higher ZDDP levels than SM and later API-spec lubricants, and at a low price, was part of the reason, but A3/B4 lubes also have elevated levels of ZDDP.

 

[edyvw]

Sorry that the thread got a little off topic after my message. I was just trying to say in my opinion Rotella is a good option for the older engines and in Ferrari forums many people use them for their cars from 90s and early 2000s even though they lack Ferrari approval, and even though an oil having a certain certification is definitely of some value, it should not be ignored or percevied as inferior because it does not, and that Rotella is attractive price wise and easy to find in bigger containers, a point the OP mentioned.

You are absolutely right, I am a European and I am used to metric units increasing in increments of 10. The imperial units are still confusing for me, so for a moment my mind thought 1 Gal was equal to 5 quarts rather than 4. Again, you are absolutely right, the oil I mentioned is being sold in 4 quart bottles and not 5. My apologies for the confusion

It is exactly that, opinion.
However, don't get worked up the way people responded. You also stated how MB 229.5 is a minimum specification, and not a maximum, without actually understanding any of that.

As for what people use, well, what does make it right if they use it? Rotella gained popularity some 15-20yrs ago in Subaru and VW forums here in US bcs. there were not thick 5W40 oils and those engines were big fuel diluters. Bcs. Rotella had a higher KV100; it ended up in the high 30's at the end of OCI. People discounted other advantages of oils that carry factory approvals. Ferrari does not have an approval. Ferrari usually used whatever oil brand they have a marketing deal with (Shell). In 90's Ferrari, Shell Helix 5W40 is oil I would personally use.