Would I need some kind of license to sell gas?

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SecondMonkey

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As summer is starting to come I get sick every time I go past a gas station. My boat gets about 2mpg on premium fuel/oil mix...that works out to about $2/mile...and I love to drive around all day at 50mph.
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So, to avoid bankruptcy, I got an idea. I can buy ten 6 gallon gas cans, fill them up, and put them in my boat. Then, launch the boat in the river, find a nice beach and put up a sign that says "gas for sale" (at a markup of course). After I sell my gas I can drive around the rest of the day for free. :)

So anyway, my question is, would I need some kind of license to sell gas like this? I'd be buying it at the local gas station, so taxes are already paid. And I wouldn't be "pumping" anything, just handing out cans of gas.

Think I can get away with it, or are they going to haul me away?
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I don't think that would be illegal down here if you reported the nett difference as income on your tax return.
 
Originally Posted By: oilyriser
You use road taxed fuel in a boat? Can you buy farm gas, even cheaper?


There's no such thing as "farm gas" in the US as far as I know, only offroad diesel. You can apply for a tax refund on non road related uses of gasoline, but oregon law specifically says you can't do that for boat gas.
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(which is complete [censored]!)
 
Licenses, (plural), leases, and registrations would be more like it.

Who owns the beach? If you were to pull up on my land and start selling hazardous substances that would cost me a bundle to clean up if there was a release, I assure you that I would have no sense of humor about it. I know from personal experience the Army Corps of Engineers also has no sense of humor, and if it's not private or controlled by the Corp, the State probably won't like it either.

Once you get past the location problem, and can secure a business or occupation license from the local jurisdiction, if you still think you want to be in the gas business, then talk to whomever registers and regulates fuel storage, transportation, and point of sale facilities in your state. Be prepared for a real surprise when you start pricing out legal storage and spill protection. Plan on six figures. You can't skip this step, because you likely won't have any access to any of the funds set up to clean up releases unless you are legal and registered. A ten gallon jug from Wal Mart probably won't cut it. You think gas from the pump is expensive - wait until you price it out when it's floating on a stream or moving underground to who knows where (but they'll find out, and it won't be cheap). It would not surprise me that if you have gas anywhere near water, it will cost double to store it and dispense it.

If you think you can transport your product in your passenger car and boat, think again. You have to have proper transportation devices and registrations, or contract with someone who does. If your product goes kaboom or spills when being transported illegally, you'll likely have a real financial problem on your hands after you get out of prison.

You don't just think you can put something in a jug and sell it as gas, I hope? The public has to have confidence they are getting what they pay for. If you sell ten gallons of gas, it has to be ten gallons +/- whatever tolerance your state allows, and it has to be whatever AKI you're purporting to sell. You'll have to get whatever certification your state requires, and post it prominently.

If you're buying your gas inclusive of tax (make sure the environmental trust fund taxes are also being collected), you may not have to remit taxes, but you'll still need a tax id number and have to file with your taxing authority. If not, you'll need to collect and remit tax.

Oh, and there's worker's comp. If it's just you, you may not need it, but some states require it even if you have only one employee (you). You might be able to opt out, but maybe not.

Better have good insurance. Whether or not you sell bad gas, I can guarantee that some yahoo that bought gas from you anytime in the preceding year before his engine kabooms will be absolutely, positively, certain your gas is to blame. Either have good insurance, a legal reserve fund, or preferably both.

Hey, the good news is all of this new property you'll have to acquire will be depreciable.

This is a bit of a tongue in cheek response, but really why do you think the cost of gas is so expensive and hardly anyone sells it? It's not just because the cost of a barrel of oil is high, but the delivery infrastruture is extremely expensive compared to even twenty five years ago. The cost of a barrel of oil will eventually go back down, but infrastructure costs are only going to go up as environmental regulations becomve even more strict.

The corner gas station is gone forever.
 
Probably needs to set up some sort of business to protect his personal assets as well.

More lawyers, more paper, more fees.
 
Do you think that you'd have regular customers?
Wouldn't they wise up and get their own after the first time?
Can you rely on people running low on fuel to support your fuel needs?
You might be on that beach for a long time for nothing.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
The environmental fees would kill you, and the sale will be fully taxable.

What, exactly, would those "environmental fees" be? The gas would already be taxed when I buy it, and of course there's no sales tax in OR.
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Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Do you think that you'd have regular customers?
Wouldn't they wise up and get their own after the first time?
Can you rely on people running low on fuel to support your fuel needs?
You might be on that beach for a long time for nothing.

There are marinas everywhere that sell gas on the water for often twice as much as pump prices. They don't seem to have any problem selling it. I have a feeling there will be a lot more people running low this year than in previous years, due to gas prices. Plus I'll be sitting on the beach for a while relaxing anyway, why not make some money too?
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Originally Posted By: Win
Who owns the beach? If you were to pull up on my land and start selling hazardous substances that would cost me a bundle to clean up if there was a release, I assure you that I would have no sense of humor about it.

Be prepared for a real surprise when you start pricing out legal storage and spill protection. Plan on six figures.

If you think you can transport your product in your passenger car and boat, think again. You have to have proper transportation devices and registrations, or contract with someone who does.

You seem to have missed the point completely, Win. All beaches in OR are owned by the state and are public. There is no storage or spill protection needed for a few cans of gas. In fact plastic gas cans already have certain ratings on them from UL or similar. And yes, I can transport them in my car and boat. There are no laws against filling gas cans and putting them in the back of your truck. There are no laws against filling gas cans and putting them in the back of your boat. There are no laws against filling gas cans and placing them on the beach. These are things I routinely do every boating season, and so do most other boaters.

The legalities of selling from the beach are a non issue, I already know I can do that. The legalities of transporting and storing (hardly can call it "storing" for a few hours) gas on the beach is a non issue, I know I can do that. I can also offer the gas to other boaters for free...the only real question is whether I can ask for money in return.
 
Originally Posted By: SecondMonkey
Originally Posted By: Pablo
The environmental fees would kill you, and the sale will be fully taxable.

What, exactly, would those "environmental fees" be? The gas would already be taxed when I buy it, and of course there's no sales tax in OR.
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I just don't think it's that simple. I'm no OR legal expert, but I highly doubt you can throw up a sign and start selling gasoline on a waterway. I know there is no sales tax in OR, but you guys have a fuel tax (at least did when I lived there up until 1992). If you are selling fuel as a commercial venture, you will be taxed (again).
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
I just don't think it's that simple. I'm no OR legal expert, but I highly doubt you can throw up a sign and start selling gasoline on a waterway.


Yeah, that is the question. Does anybody know what agency I would have to ask about selling gas?

I agree, partially, that you can't just put up a sign and start selling gas. But I think the fact that it's only a one day thing, nothing is installed, no big tanks are filled, no fuel deliveries are made, and no gas is pumped, are sure to make a big difference over setting up a full on gas station.

Then again, if it works out well I might just open up a full time gas station, there are many marinas down river that sell gas, so I know it's legal, it's just a matter of what permits are needed.
 
Well, I finally found the Oregon "fuels tax group" run by the DOT. I have emailed them my question, and also read through all the state regulations on selling gasoline. From what I read, I interpret it to be legal to do what I want to do, with no license, so long as I don't import/export fuel between cities or counties, or "deliver or place fuel for a price into a receptacle on a motor vehicle, from which receptacle the fuel is supplied to propel the motor vehicle."

All that means is I can't pour the gas in the tank for them.

The way I see it, I would be running a delivery business, not a "fuel dealer".
 
Might be handy to find out if jurisdiction changes when you're on the water.

There's this little harbor I used to frequent, with one dock selling gas (dyed 93 octane unleaded only-- no 87!) and one mobile (correct spelling) floating, moving "gypsy" operation. Figure the marina owner was behind most of the "gypsy" rumors. Anyhow, the story went the gypsies were under federal jurisdiction and not subject to the county inspector. Gypsy fuel was of course cheaper than the marina fuel.

(I wonder if they were ten miles out in international waters, if they could skip other taxes etc.)

Oddly, though the fuel was dyed, it was more expensive than road taxed fuel.

If I were you I'd set up a sign that read "Lemonade, $3.999 a gallon" and be sure you have some lemonade. If some big red gas cans were incidentally around, well, those are for fueling your mobile lemonade business!
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Originally Posted By: SecondMonkey
You seem to have missed the point completely, Win.


Boy, did I ever. You wrote this which made me think you wanted to transport motor fuels, for sale to the public, at a profit:

"I can buy ten 6 gallon gas cans, fill them up, and put them in my boat. Then, launch the boat in the river, find a nice beach and put up a sign that says "gas for sale" (at a markup of course). "

Which, in the two states I sell gas, is a pretty tightly regulated enterprise. If you can do it the way you're talking about in Oregon, I honestly don't know whether to stand back and applaud your complete and absolute freedom from the pestilence of government, or be totally appalled at the utter lack of protection for the environment, lack of protection for the motoring public while you're transporting your inventory of distilled dynamite in plastic jugs, or total lack of protection for the consumer who may or may not be getting what they think they are getting.

So, I gotta ask, what's plan B when somebody decides to beach their boat next to you and sell his/her gas a nickel cheaper? Are the boaters on your creek going to get to enjoy a good old fashioned price war? Are you prepared to sell gas for less than what you paid for it to retain your market share?
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino
If I were you I'd set up a sign that read "Lemonade, $3.999 a gallon" and be sure you have some lemonade. If some big red gas cans were incidentally around, well, those are for fueling your mobile lemonade business!
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Actually, I'll probably end up giving the gas away for free, after they pay a $4-5-6 delivery charge for the can.
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Originally Posted By: Win
Which, in the two states I sell gas, is a pretty tightly regulated enterprise. If you can do it the way you're talking about in Oregon, I honestly don't know whether to stand back and applaud your complete and absolute freedom from the pestilence of government, or be totally appalled at the utter lack of protection for the environment, lack of protection for the motoring public while you're transporting your inventory of distilled dynamite in plastic jugs, or total lack of protection for the consumer who may or may not be getting what they think they are getting.


So, in Arkansas, people aren't allowed to fill their own gas cans and then cart them back home in the back of their trucks? How do they run their lawnmowers?
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Again, you're missing the point. Fuel dealers and haulers are highly regulated here just like everywhere else. Under all the laws I read, I would be neither a dealer nor a hauler as long as I follow a few basic guidelines I outlined above.
 
Well, I sent a very detailed description of what I want to do to the Oregon DOT "fuels tax group", that regulates everything gasoline here. Here is their answer:

Quote:
At this time you do not need a license from the Fuels Tax Group.


Look for me out on the river this summer. 10% off to BITOG members.
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