Would a total ban on Chinese imports help the USA?

[Gary Allan]

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It's really not that simple.

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Who said it was simple? But are you attempting to call this "easy" in terms of the social upheaval? The loss of purpose ..the degradation of all that are surrounding you and below you in status?

Our shepherds are MAKING this devolution EASY and transparent in allowances. This is "engineered" to be seamless and painless ..and even gainful to those who support it. You don't perceive that you're hurt by it NOW. You may have a time line that allows you some feeling of exemption ..or you may be well buffered by it.

..but one of your family tree will surely be paying for the party. ..but since you can't fight city hall ..you might as well rationalize it or intellectualize it ..justify it ..or just deny it.

Keep in mind, I'm not in distress. I'm distressed about where this is going. I'm surely not the only one that sees this. Now I may be the only one to talk about it (shhh!!! don't bring it up - it's embarrassing!)

 

[hungdynasty]

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If this is too political G-MAN, my apologies.

We've had some good threads on China lately, and this is one question I've been wanting to ask all of you guys for quite some time; I was just waiting for the right moment.

I kind of think that a ban on Chinese imports would be good for this country, but I'm kind of limited at my knowledge of economics, so your thoughts and general comments would be much appreciated.

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Merkava_4

I think in any trading there must be two sides, seller and buyer. Chinese as sellers just can't sell anything without buyers, and buyers means those giant american companies and importers like Motorola, Dell, Wal-Mart....etc. To solve your concern american people have to make those giants buying things manufactured in USA, I don't think to ban chinese goods would help because there are quite a lot of countries around the world are with even cheaper labours than in china. Those american giants can probably move all their manufacturing to other cheap-labour countries in a year if chinese exports is banned. USA may not have any political problems with those countries like having with china but american people will still suffer the same from those imports.

 

[Papa Bear]

Ban all Chinese products ... except take-out

 

[Gary Allan]

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USA may not have any political problems with those countries like having with china but american people will still suffer the same from those imports.

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If you're reading about "political problems" ..the matter is already solved. The saber rattling, whether it is threats of nuke development ..or flooding the market with US$$ is JUST to get the reaction needed to allow the required/desired action. Threaten with a nuke? Get a deal. You can't just give anyone a deal without cause.

All the results of this threat are old news in some office somewhere.

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

"You don't perceive that you're hurt by it NOW."
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Gary, the white American male doesn't have the status that he had 50 years ago. So what. Each individual must make his own way and be his own manager. We are free to leave America if we so choose. Loads of people went to Canada in the 60s and seventies to avoid military service. They weren't stopped.

Make yourself as valuable as possible through knowledge and skills and combine this with an ethic to work. Don't procreate if you can't afford it. You'll be alright. Just as long as the government doesn't tax you into poverty so that those who don't work, learn or move can eat. JMO

 

[Gary Allan]

G-M ..it's just hard to accept devolution in the midst of ultimate achievement. I'll never welcome the upcoming 3rd world status that this nation will endure ..and I can clearly tag where the inducements are coming from. I don't accept that this is necessary for all the king's men to get their cut.

This is a race to the sub mundane. Don't ever sell me on any "we" rah-rah hooplah. It's always been a fairytale.

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

"I'll never welcome the upcoming 3rd world status that this nation will endure .."
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Geez Gary, basically full employmnet (by anyone's measure), the highest standard of living in the world. We export more than we ever have. We are more productive as a workforce than ever. We produce more goods and services per energy unit used than any country on Earth but we are teetering on 3rd world status?

More of the world's nations are looking to invest here . The only thing that stops us is an educational system which allows the few to disrupt the education of the many and a dole which rewards anti-social and irresponsible behavior. Of course there's the legal system which paints idiots as victims and the many must pay for this.

My guess is that you will see Europe enjoying 3rd world status before the U.S. due to it's socialistic leanings and no border E.U. policies. Once the Europeans get to pay the freight for their own defense and it eats at their GDP, my guess is that depression comes their way before it comes ours.

Poor people in this country drive cars, have computers and access to unlimited educational opportunities. What they do with their opprtunities is left to them, not some bureaucrat.

Solving the imbalance in trade is as simple as developing alternative, renewanble efficient energy sources. It doesn't seem that insurmountable.

 

[Merkava_4]

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I don't think to ban chinese goods would help because there are quite a lot of countries around the world are with even cheaper labours than in china. Those american giants can probably move all their manufacturing to other cheap-labour countries in a year if chinese exports is banned.

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Yes you've just described a major loophole in American labour laws. I believe that American owned manufacturers should only be allowed use American labour to build their products. I also believe that they should only be allowed to build their products on American soil. To further seal my hypothetic law, I would also make it to where no foreign investors are allowed to invest in an American owned company.

 

[oilyriser]

If I run a business in Canada, and subvert labor laws to make my business more profitable, I'll get taken to court and fined. Yet we give free reign to distributors who import products from countries that do just that, and nothing happens to them.

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

I believe in no competition because Americans can't compete.

 

[Shannow]

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We produce more goods and services per energy unit used than any country on Earth but we are teetering on 3rd world status?

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LOL, I don't know where you plucked that "statistic" from.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/env_pol_car_dio_fro_fos_fue_200_pergdp-fossil-fuels-2000-per-gdp

Australia is 6th worse.

Note, the stat doesn't include nukes/renewables, which makes those with nukes/renewables even worse than the ranking here.

 

[CivicFan]

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I believe in no competition because Americans can't compete.

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So far, this was the best sentence in the whole dialog.

Now, let me give you a short run scenario of banning, or restricting, the Chinese imports. Most of the Made in China products we buy are assembled in China of foreign parts; the multinationals take advantage of the low skilled labor costs. When there are tariffs on these products, the increase in costs will have to be transferred to the consumer resulting in higher prices, and inflation. The salaries will lose their buying power. The result of the inflation would be two fold - the Fed raising the interest rates and the consumers eventually demanding higher salaries. High interest rates will mean less credit available which will further reduce consumption and investment by the businesses; higher salaries will mean higher locally produced goods/service prices and more inflation.

In the long run, the importers will shift their production to other countries such as Vietnam. Then we will have the same conversation some 5-10 years after that.

So, you are all voting for a Democrat as a president, I assume? They keep talking about restricting foreign trade with China.

 

[moribundman]

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I believe in no competition because Americans can't compete.

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So far, this was the best sentence in the whole dialog.

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American'ts can't, Americans can -- whether or not they want to is another question. The prospect of making a profit, and even if it's only a short term profit with in the long run possibly destructive consequences, is a very powerful motivator.

Short term thinking is the beginning of the end. That's why I found it so hilarious when someone recently was wondering why German tool manufacturers were not competing in the oh-so-huge US consumer market. Stoopid idjits, they don't want to sell their tools at a competitive level! I'm sure it's hard to comprehend for some.

 

[moribundman]

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So, you are all voting for a Democrat as a president, I assume? They keep talking about restricting foreign trade with China.

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Thank the Lord this isn't political commentary!

Who exactly sold US interstate highways to foreign companies? Who wants so desperately the Trans-Texas Corridor?

 

[Gary Allan]

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Geez Gary, basically full employmnet (by anyone's measure), the highest standard of living in the world. We export more than we ever have. We are more productive as a workforce than ever. We produce more goods and services per energy unit used than any country on Earth but we are teetering on 3rd world status?

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Oh really? Full employment? Funny how we're in a recession with above 5-6% unemployment (of fuzzy figured members) and are in an inflationary environment below 5% (or whatever the new spun number is) ..and so is the rest of the world that sucks us dry for a purpose. I think your energy figures are off. Back when we elevated Japan to our level of success, they were at all time highs of manufacturing, had a larger population, and yet only has 1/5th our energy consumption.

Productivity means more unneeded people.

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More of the world's nations are looking to invest here . The only thing that stops us is an educational system which allows the few to disrupt the education of the many and a dole which rewards anti-social and irresponsible behavior. Of course there's the legal system which paints idiots as victims and the many must pay for this.

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You are surely joking. The foreign investment will be for one of two reasons. One, they're so loaded with USpaper that they can't get any worth out of it unless they "loan" it back to us ..so we can continue to employ them buying their garbage. ..or...Two, our interest rates go sky high like in the Carter administration. There we got blamed for all the lack of economic growth in the rest of the world because double digit inflation paid off in spades for places that didn't have it ...like Europe.

I won't even comment on the education system horse "stuff". If everyone was just as smart as you (and I'll assume that you're not even smart enough to do everything) ...some of them will still be on welfare. Some will still be flipping burgers. There is no "upward mobility" in assured advancing employment today. McD's may be the end of the road no matter how smart you are. Most likely the smarter will be at the top ...but you've got a very VERY broad bottom dwelling zone that's getting bigger. No matter how smart you are ...you're still going to fill the empty chairs. This is a very simple concept.

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My guess is that you will see Europe enjoying 3rd world status before the U.S. due to it's socialistic leanings and no border E.U. policies. Once the Europeans get to pay the freight for their own defense and it eats at their GDP, my guess is that depression comes their way before it comes ours.

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Poor people in this country drive cars, have computers and access to unlimited educational opportunities. What they do with their opprtunities is left to them, not some bureaucrat.

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Yes, let's make sure that poor people here are just like those in Africa or India ..that will teach them!! Hey, pal, we both know that you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. So what if there's more crime, decaying infrastructure, bankrupt education systems ...it's what they deserve ..and they brought it on themselves. If they had given money back to the manufacturing companies (that many have never worked for) ..they would still have their jobs ..have better housing ...better paved roads...upgraded appliances ...they would have it all ..compliments of the gratitude of the manufacturers and boards of directors for their selfless and noble behavior. What were they thinking

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Solving the imbalance in trade is as simple as developing alternative, renewanble efficient energy sources.

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You can solve the balance in trade a couple of ways. You can just pay as you go. 1.5 trillion out ...1.5 trillion in. Take a number for better service. Or, you can just exchange the status of other country's populations for your own. Make idle useless eaters into productive individuals ..and take employed and productive individual here ..and turn them into useless eaters by sending their jobs to others.

I don't see how energy enters into the equation. It costs just as much to buy energy in China as it does here ..or in Europe. We just have the added burden of defending the strategic supplies ..so that our emerging economies can continue to exchange useless eaters for productive people. Eventually, when you have enough useless eaters ..that you can't feed ..they'll be eager to work for the slave wages required to become producers again. Sounds like a good deal.

We're obviously here to help others help themselves ......to our future and allow them to make it their own. Naturally some brokering fees will be assessed for the access.

 

[GROUCHO MARX]

"I don't see how energy enters into the equation. It costs just as much to buy energy in China as it does here ..or in Europe. "
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Absolutely wrong, Gary. The cost of building coal burning energy plants in China is a small fraction of what it takes to get around environmental requirements here (if you could).

If you don't see how energy affects our trade imbalance, I guess I'm through here. Until we can get some handle on energy independence, our foreign policy, our defense strategies and the amount we must borrow to fund a miltary is all functional.

If one doesn't think that an uninterrupted supply of oil isn't critical to all of our geo-political machinations, one is living on some different planet. You lived through gas shortages of the 70s. Extend that scenario to a decade and see what the quality/standard of living will be. I shudder, but I can get by on a lot less and be happy.

 

[oilyriser]

It might take twice as many BTUs to produce a $ of GDP in India as here, but that dollar there goes 10x as far to keep you fed, housed, and clothed.

 

[Shannow]

oilyriser, India uses 56% the BTUs per $GDP than the U.S. (actually that only counts the carbon, so they'd be well below half the U.S. and Oz in terms of use of energy for GDP).

 

[Gary Allan]

Hmmm...we provide the security to provide the oil to those who produce widgits that they sell us cheaper. That is, we're not only giving them a purpose ...we're subsidizing them too with stable energy supplies??

Who does this for us?? If asked, I withdraw my permission. No ticky ..no washy.

..but in terms of the cost of a product ...the energy balance is probably moot. Now the cost of DOING BUSINESS ...that's a whole different deal.

Now, sure, if you produce and endless supply of clean energy ...Utopia is here to stay. You can do anything with enough energy.


..but we're getting a bit off of the main theme here.

Does it ultimately hurt the USA to have trade imbalances in terms of employment and support for the society in terms of revenue to sustain it. Sustain means "at present or IMPROVED levels (those may mean former levels too)"

Yes or No??

If yes, then there's the question, "why is it allowed to occur?". That is, why would you willingly ...willfully sabotage the inherent "good health" of your nation? Just what is the ultimate goal here (the important question)? What defensible position supports it in terms of any sensible philosophy or theory?

If no, then I need to understand how a declining environment is actually improving things (in the confines of benefit to the support of the society and those within it).


If voted upon, what would be most likely approved?

Leave it like it is and expect more of what you've gotten (for the masses)?

Stop what you're doing. When you find yourself in an ever deepening hole ..the first rule is, STOP DIGGING.

Now it's obvious that those who are digging ..aren't expecting to be in the hole.

..or is there some other way to say it? I'm all ears.

Now before you label me some type of commie ...I'm all for a true "free market" economy. Just let the chips fall as they may. No loans ...no cheap credit ...just pay as you go. If we don't have enough cash ...well that's just too bad. They want to sell more, then they have to sell it for less. Real simple.

..but that would get in the way of profits, right? Commerce couldn't flow. SO?

It's not as though there isn't suffering under the current mess of a system we're using now. It's just who does the suffering is filtered. Manipulated conditions to funnel the money in a preferred manner. Fine exercise of power along the lines of excellence.

..but I'm done.. this is beat.

 

[oilyriser]

I'm not sure about the oil security for widget makers idea, since oil will always be available at OPEC prices. But securing who gets to pump the oil and reap the profits is another subject.

There are demographic factors working against the developed nations, and they are feeling the problems associated with having fewer workers to support the management classes. Outsourcing is a way to fill in the gaps.

Japan went to robots, why not N.A. and EU?