Let's go back a square: Is it really possible that over pressure could be sufficient to distort/crush the "Spiral Steel Center Tube" (Wix nominclature)? Why wouldn't the by-pass valve prevent that or the outer gasket fail first? Stated differently, I find it hard to imagine that there would be enough oil pressure to distort the center tube once the outer gasket failed. This seems really extraordinary, no?
WIX Filter Failure
- Thread starter ZeeOSix
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Let's go back a square: Is it really possible that over pressure could be sufficient to distort/crush the "Spiral Steel Center Tube" (Wix nominclature)? Why wouldn't the by-pass valve prevent that or the outer gasket fail first? Stated differently, I find it hard to imagine that there would be enough oil pressure to distort the center tube once the outer gasket failed. This seems really extraordinary, no?
Good question. If the Fram video I previously posted is to be believed it's possible to distort/blow out the can, so wouldn't it also be possible to collapse a center tube? And the "Spiral Steel Center Tube" would/could explain the twisting of the media as it collapsed.
Ignore that the youtube maker arrived at a simplistic conclusion based on a limited knowledge of oil filter function and what 'he thinks' is the only factor. Imo, extreme oil pressure caused the Wix to collapse. As for the cause of that pressure, could be one factor mentioned or a combination of those previously proposed. But no, I don't believe it as simple as the youtube maker's conclusion of one filter vs another.
Extraordinary yeah, impossible, it doesn't seem so imo.
Let's go back a square: Is it really possible that over pressure could be sufficient to distort/crush the "Spiral Steel Center Tube" (Wix nominclature)? Why wouldn't the by-pass valve prevent that or the outer gasket fail first? Stated differently, I find it hard to imagine that there would be enough oil pressure to distort the center tube once the outer gasket failed. This seems really extraordinary, no?
Good question. If the Fram video I previously posted is to be believed it's possible to distort/blow out the can, so wouldn't it also be possible to collapse a center tube? And the "Spiral Steel Center Tube" would/could explain the twisting of the media as it collapsed.
Ignore that the youtube maker arrived at a simplistic conclusion based on a limited knowledge of oil filter function and what 'he thinks' is the only factor. Imo, extreme oil pressure caused the Wix to collapse. As for the cause of that pressure, could be one factor mentioned or a combination of those previously proposed. But no, I don't believe it as simple as the youtube maker's conclusion of one filter vs another.
Extraordinary yeah, impossible, it doesn't seem so imo.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Whatever happened to this filter (staged or otherwise) was well beyond the design limitations of the product.
Agreed. Either way it was disingenuous to blame the filter.
Whatever happened to this filter (staged or otherwise) was well beyond the design limitations of the product.
Agreed. Either way it was disingenuous to blame the filter.
If we had one continuous, and unedited, video showing the filter actually being cut open and the guts removed I might buy it. As it is to me it smells of a scam. How do we know that this is legit and isn't staged? 2 videos with a large chunk of the action so to speak not show. Could even be 2 different filters( same part # )as another poster mentioned. I just don't believe filters fail like that. To me it appears to be damage that was intentionally caused by a person with the media out of the fiilter. JMHO.
Here is the 2:20 screen shot. Sorry about the flickr thing. Photobucket was down last night so I tried to do with with flickr to no avail( hate flickr ). I will leave it to each person to judge for themselves but I see a spot that looks like a cut has started.
Here is the 2:20 screen shot. Sorry about the flickr thing. Photobucket was down last night so I tried to do with with flickr to no avail( hate flickr ). I will leave it to each person to judge for themselves but I see a spot that looks like a cut has started.
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Originally Posted By: Hounds
Let's go back a square: Is it really possible that over pressure could be sufficient to distort/crush the "Spiral Steel Center Tube" (Wix nominclature)?
I think sayjac got it right with his comments above. I agree that the oil pump's pressure regulator probably malfunctioned and there was some very high pressure put into the oil filter. Per the FRAM training video, if the oil pump pressure regulator fails, there can be 300+ PSI output. The fact that the poster of the video showed that the filter's gasket puked oil all over the place indicates there was a huge amount of pressure in the filter. The spiral center tube, once it started to collapse probably naturally caused the element to twist as pressure collapsed it inward and downward.
Once the initial collapse of the guts occurred, then the element couldn't seal any more because it couldn't maintain the seal on the base plate. The oil would then just bypass the filter like there were no guts at all inside the can. This all probably happened withing a very short time frame - in mere seconds.
If the oil pump was still putting out massive pressure, then the engine's oiling circuit received the brunt of the over pressure - that's probably what actually damaged his engine. If this is what happened, and this guy rebuilds his engine without checking out the pump's pressure regulator, it will happen again, no matter what oil filter is installed.
Originally Posted By: Hounds
Why wouldn't the by-pass valve prevent that or the outer gasket fail first? Stated differently, I find it hard to imagine that there would be enough oil pressure to distort the center tube once the outer gasket failed. This seems really extraordinary, no?
It is extraordinary. I'd bet if someone disabled the oil pump's pressure relief valve you could replicate this failure pretty easily. The element and center tube is not designed to withstand hundreds of PSI delta across it ... it's designed to withstand more like 30 PSI. The bypass probably did open, but if the oil pump is putting out that much volume and pressure there is no way a wimpy bypass valve is going to handle the massive over load, therefore the filter collapses.
Let's go back a square: Is it really possible that over pressure could be sufficient to distort/crush the "Spiral Steel Center Tube" (Wix nominclature)?
I think sayjac got it right with his comments above. I agree that the oil pump's pressure regulator probably malfunctioned and there was some very high pressure put into the oil filter. Per the FRAM training video, if the oil pump pressure regulator fails, there can be 300+ PSI output. The fact that the poster of the video showed that the filter's gasket puked oil all over the place indicates there was a huge amount of pressure in the filter. The spiral center tube, once it started to collapse probably naturally caused the element to twist as pressure collapsed it inward and downward.
Once the initial collapse of the guts occurred, then the element couldn't seal any more because it couldn't maintain the seal on the base plate. The oil would then just bypass the filter like there were no guts at all inside the can. This all probably happened withing a very short time frame - in mere seconds.
If the oil pump was still putting out massive pressure, then the engine's oiling circuit received the brunt of the over pressure - that's probably what actually damaged his engine. If this is what happened, and this guy rebuilds his engine without checking out the pump's pressure regulator, it will happen again, no matter what oil filter is installed.
Originally Posted By: Hounds
Why wouldn't the by-pass valve prevent that or the outer gasket fail first? Stated differently, I find it hard to imagine that there would be enough oil pressure to distort the center tube once the outer gasket failed. This seems really extraordinary, no?
It is extraordinary. I'd bet if someone disabled the oil pump's pressure relief valve you could replicate this failure pretty easily. The element and center tube is not designed to withstand hundreds of PSI delta across it ... it's designed to withstand more like 30 PSI. The bypass probably did open, but if the oil pump is putting out that much volume and pressure there is no way a wimpy bypass valve is going to handle the massive over load, therefore the filter collapses.
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
If we had one continuous, and unedited, video showing the filter actually being cut open and the guts removed I might buy it. As it is to me it smells of a scam. How do we know that this is legit and isn't staged? 2 videos with a large chunk of the action so to speak not show. Could even be 2 different filters( same part # )as another poster mentioned. I just don't believe filters fail like that. To me it appears to be damage that was intentionally caused by a person with the media out of the fiilter. JMHO.
Guess I have a different perspective. The snap-shots I posted from the first video at 1:24 clearly shows no cut in the can. Then he clearly shows the crushed guts and rattles the guts of the can between 1:24 and 1:35. Pretty hard to fake all that IMO since the can isn't cut at that time.
See my explanation above on how I think the filter crushed. If there is 300 PSI in the can due to a failed pump pressure regulator, then it's easy to see why it would collapse like that.
IMO the shot at 2:20 is worthless and doesn't show any discernible cut in the can. The best shot in the whole video is at 1:24.
If we had one continuous, and unedited, video showing the filter actually being cut open and the guts removed I might buy it. As it is to me it smells of a scam. How do we know that this is legit and isn't staged? 2 videos with a large chunk of the action so to speak not show. Could even be 2 different filters( same part # )as another poster mentioned. I just don't believe filters fail like that. To me it appears to be damage that was intentionally caused by a person with the media out of the fiilter. JMHO.
Guess I have a different perspective. The snap-shots I posted from the first video at 1:24 clearly shows no cut in the can. Then he clearly shows the crushed guts and rattles the guts of the can between 1:24 and 1:35. Pretty hard to fake all that IMO since the can isn't cut at that time.
See my explanation above on how I think the filter crushed. If there is 300 PSI in the can due to a failed pump pressure regulator, then it's easy to see why it would collapse like that.
IMO the shot at 2:20 is worthless and doesn't show any discernible cut in the can. The best shot in the whole video is at 1:24.
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
If we had one continuous, and unedited, video showing the filter actually being cut open and the guts removed I might buy it. As it is to me it smells of a scam. How do we know that this is legit and isn't staged? 2 videos with a large chunk of the action so to speak not show. Could even be 2 different filters( same part # )as another poster mentioned. I just don't believe filters fail like that. To me it appears to be damage that was intentionally caused by a person with the media out of the fiilter. JMHO.
Here is the 2:20 screen shot. Sorry about the flickr thing. Photobucket was down last night so I tried to do with with flickr to no avail( hate flickr ). I will leave it to each person to judge for themselves but I see a spot that looks like a cut has started.
I agree. Regarding the shot at 2:20, I was actually refering to the moment slightly further ahead where his hand touches the filter. It's a little tricky to stop at. That's the thing a lot can happen in camera movement within the same second of this video. You know what they say the hand is quicker than the eye lol.
If we had one continuous, and unedited, video showing the filter actually being cut open and the guts removed I might buy it. As it is to me it smells of a scam. How do we know that this is legit and isn't staged? 2 videos with a large chunk of the action so to speak not show. Could even be 2 different filters( same part # )as another poster mentioned. I just don't believe filters fail like that. To me it appears to be damage that was intentionally caused by a person with the media out of the fiilter. JMHO.
Here is the 2:20 screen shot. Sorry about the flickr thing. Photobucket was down last night so I tried to do with with flickr to no avail( hate flickr ). I will leave it to each person to judge for themselves but I see a spot that looks like a cut has started.
I agree. Regarding the shot at 2:20, I was actually refering to the moment slightly further ahead where his hand touches the filter. It's a little tricky to stop at. That's the thing a lot can happen in camera movement within the same second of this video. You know what they say the hand is quicker than the eye lol.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Hounds
Let's go back a square: Is it really possible that over pressure could be sufficient to distort/crush the "Spiral Steel Center Tube" (Wix nominclature)?
I think sayjac got it right with his comments above. I agree that the oil pump's pressure regulator probably malfunctioned and there was some very high pressure put into the oil filter. Per the FRAM training video, if the oil pump pressure regulator fails, there can be 300+ PSI output. The fact that the poster of the video showed that the filter's gasket puked oil all over the place indicates there was a huge amount of pressure in the filter. The spiral center tube, once it started to collapse probably naturally caused the element to twist as pressure collapsed it inward and downward.
Once the initial collapse of the guts occurred, then the element couldn't seal any more because it couldn't maintain the seal on the base plate. The oil would then just bypass the filter like there were no guts at all inside the can. This all probably happened withing a very short time frame - in mere seconds.
If the oil pump was still putting out massive pressure, then the engine's oiling circuit received the brunt of the over pressure - that's probably what actually damaged his engine. If this is what happened, and this guy rebuilds his engine without checking out the pump's pressure regulator, it will happen again, no matter what oil filter is installed.
Originally Posted By: Hounds
Why wouldn't the by-pass valve prevent that or the outer gasket fail first? Stated differently, I find it hard to imagine that there would be enough oil pressure to distort the center tube once the outer gasket failed. This seems really extraordinary, no?
It is extraordinary. I'd bet if someone disabled the oil pump's pressure relief valve you could replicate this failure pretty easily. The element and center tube is not designed to withstand hundreds of PSI delta across it ... it's designed to withstand more like 30 PSI. The bypass probably did open, but if the oil pump is putting out that much volume and pressure there is no way a wimpy bypass valve is going to handle the massive over load, therefore the filter collapses.
Still there would need to a huge pressure differential and not just high oil pressure to distort the filter element. Even if we assume the oil pressure went high we should also assume that the filter bypass was working, so why should we assume there was a huge pressure differential? The only time we'd see the filter element get crushed if there was overpressure and the filter bypass failed (or more likely was missing).
But you say the "filter bypass can't take the load". How do you know that? Most likely the bypass is sized so it can bypass as much oil as an oil pump's pressure relief valve can, or as much oil as the filter feed can flow. That's the goal of a bypass to allow nonrestrictive flow.
And then filter element doesn't look crushed from hydraulic pressure. It looks crushed vertically by vertical pressure like someone standing on the filter. I don't buy this guy's story.
Originally Posted By: Hounds
Let's go back a square: Is it really possible that over pressure could be sufficient to distort/crush the "Spiral Steel Center Tube" (Wix nominclature)?
I think sayjac got it right with his comments above. I agree that the oil pump's pressure regulator probably malfunctioned and there was some very high pressure put into the oil filter. Per the FRAM training video, if the oil pump pressure regulator fails, there can be 300+ PSI output. The fact that the poster of the video showed that the filter's gasket puked oil all over the place indicates there was a huge amount of pressure in the filter. The spiral center tube, once it started to collapse probably naturally caused the element to twist as pressure collapsed it inward and downward.
Once the initial collapse of the guts occurred, then the element couldn't seal any more because it couldn't maintain the seal on the base plate. The oil would then just bypass the filter like there were no guts at all inside the can. This all probably happened withing a very short time frame - in mere seconds.
If the oil pump was still putting out massive pressure, then the engine's oiling circuit received the brunt of the over pressure - that's probably what actually damaged his engine. If this is what happened, and this guy rebuilds his engine without checking out the pump's pressure regulator, it will happen again, no matter what oil filter is installed.
Originally Posted By: Hounds
Why wouldn't the by-pass valve prevent that or the outer gasket fail first? Stated differently, I find it hard to imagine that there would be enough oil pressure to distort the center tube once the outer gasket failed. This seems really extraordinary, no?
It is extraordinary. I'd bet if someone disabled the oil pump's pressure relief valve you could replicate this failure pretty easily. The element and center tube is not designed to withstand hundreds of PSI delta across it ... it's designed to withstand more like 30 PSI. The bypass probably did open, but if the oil pump is putting out that much volume and pressure there is no way a wimpy bypass valve is going to handle the massive over load, therefore the filter collapses.
Still there would need to a huge pressure differential and not just high oil pressure to distort the filter element. Even if we assume the oil pressure went high we should also assume that the filter bypass was working, so why should we assume there was a huge pressure differential? The only time we'd see the filter element get crushed if there was overpressure and the filter bypass failed (or more likely was missing).
But you say the "filter bypass can't take the load". How do you know that? Most likely the bypass is sized so it can bypass as much oil as an oil pump's pressure relief valve can, or as much oil as the filter feed can flow. That's the goal of a bypass to allow nonrestrictive flow.
And then filter element doesn't look crushed from hydraulic pressure. It looks crushed vertically by vertical pressure like someone standing on the filter. I don't buy this guy's story.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Still there would need to a huge pressure differential and not just high oil pressure to distort the filter element.
If there is 200~300 PSI of intlet pressure on the filter there will be a HUGE pressure differential across the element. The large pressure differential is what crushed the filter's guts.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Even if we assume the oil pressure went high we should also assume that the filter bypass was working, so why should we assume there was a huge pressure differential? The only time we'd see the filter element get crushed if there was overpressure and the filter bypass failed (or more likely was missing).
Along with high oil pressure is high oil flow volume - that is what caused the huge pressure delta across the element. It takes way more pressure to make a larger volume go through the same flow resistance. The pressure regulator on an oil pump is also a volume regulator, because you can't have one without the other. If you have high oil pressure you also have high oil flow volume. This is the nature of a positive displacement oil pump. When you get a really large flow volume going, there is no way the bypass valve can handle all the flow. Bypass valves are not designed to save a filter if the oil pump goes haywire.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
But you say the "filter bypass can't take the load". How do you know that? Most likely the bypass is sized so it can bypass as much oil as an oil pump's pressure relief valve can, or as much oil as the filter feed can flow. That's the goal of a bypass to allow nonrestrictive flow.
There is a difference between the oil filter bypass valve and the oil pump's bypass/pressure relief valve. Oil pumps are designed to regulate the oil pressure and flow, so their regulation valve should be sized correctly. In some cases, I believe even some oil pump's don't have the right sized pressure relief valve to properly maintain a constant maximum output pressure, especially when the oil is cold and thick.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
And then filter element doesn't look crushed from hydraulic pressure. It looks crushed vertically by vertical pressure like someone standing on the filter. I don't buy this guy's story.
If there was 200~300 PSI inside that can, even for a few seconds, I can see how that element crushed down. The pressure was trying to implode the core while also pushing down on the top end cap. It would be just like a 200~300 lb guy standing on the element while pressure tried to implode the core. Like sayjac and I said above, the twisted core design probably twisted once the core started getting compressed and the element crushed down vertically.
Still there would need to a huge pressure differential and not just high oil pressure to distort the filter element.
If there is 200~300 PSI of intlet pressure on the filter there will be a HUGE pressure differential across the element. The large pressure differential is what crushed the filter's guts.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Even if we assume the oil pressure went high we should also assume that the filter bypass was working, so why should we assume there was a huge pressure differential? The only time we'd see the filter element get crushed if there was overpressure and the filter bypass failed (or more likely was missing).
Along with high oil pressure is high oil flow volume - that is what caused the huge pressure delta across the element. It takes way more pressure to make a larger volume go through the same flow resistance. The pressure regulator on an oil pump is also a volume regulator, because you can't have one without the other. If you have high oil pressure you also have high oil flow volume. This is the nature of a positive displacement oil pump. When you get a really large flow volume going, there is no way the bypass valve can handle all the flow. Bypass valves are not designed to save a filter if the oil pump goes haywire.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
But you say the "filter bypass can't take the load". How do you know that? Most likely the bypass is sized so it can bypass as much oil as an oil pump's pressure relief valve can, or as much oil as the filter feed can flow. That's the goal of a bypass to allow nonrestrictive flow.
There is a difference between the oil filter bypass valve and the oil pump's bypass/pressure relief valve. Oil pumps are designed to regulate the oil pressure and flow, so their regulation valve should be sized correctly. In some cases, I believe even some oil pump's don't have the right sized pressure relief valve to properly maintain a constant maximum output pressure, especially when the oil is cold and thick.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
And then filter element doesn't look crushed from hydraulic pressure. It looks crushed vertically by vertical pressure like someone standing on the filter. I don't buy this guy's story.
If there was 200~300 PSI inside that can, even for a few seconds, I can see how that element crushed down. The pressure was trying to implode the core while also pushing down on the top end cap. It would be just like a 200~300 lb guy standing on the element while pressure tried to implode the core. Like sayjac and I said above, the twisted core design probably twisted once the core started getting compressed and the element crushed down vertically.
Well you say that an oil filter bypass will allow a high pressure differential if oil pressure is excessive but that means the bypass is more restrictive than oil filter feed. I don't think it is. Filter bypasses are quite large and I'd say as large as the filter feed.
All this talk about a failed pump relief valve, 200-300 psi of oil pressure and that filter bypasses are more restrictive than the oil filter feed is really speculative. As is how the filter center tube and element would collapse. 200+ psi would've likely blew out the filter can not to mention the gasket. That's what usually happens (or always) when oil pressure is excessive. I tend to believe this whole thing is a hoax.
All this talk about a failed pump relief valve, 200-300 psi of oil pressure and that filter bypasses are more restrictive than the oil filter feed is really speculative. As is how the filter center tube and element would collapse. 200+ psi would've likely blew out the filter can not to mention the gasket. That's what usually happens (or always) when oil pressure is excessive. I tend to believe this whole thing is a hoax.
More video forensics. Here's a snap-shot out of each video showing that the filter in each video is the same one. See the paint chip "fingerprint" circled in red. The second photo isn't as clear, but you can see the two chips on the edge of the base above the left side of the "X" in WIX are the same.
Snap-shot from 1st video before filter is cut open.
Snap-shot from 2nd video before filter is cut open.
Snap-shot from 1st video before filter is cut open.
Snap-shot from 2nd video before filter is cut open.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Well you say that an oil filter bypass will allow a high pressure differential if oil pressure is excessive but that means the bypass is more restrictive than oil filter feed. I don't think it is. Filter bypasses are quite large and I'd say as large as the filter feed.
The filter's bypass valve in not meant to flow tons of oil flow. It's designed to flow some of the oil past the media when the media becomes restrictive enough to make the bypass crack open. In this case, if the oil pump pressure regulator failed, then the filter was hit quickly with a very large flow volume that crushed it within seconds ... there is no way a filter's bypass valve is going to save the filter in that case. Go disable your pump's pressure relief valve and fire up the engine with 35 deg F oil and see what it does to the oil filter. It will destroy it big time.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
All this talk about a failed pump relief valve, 200-300 psi of oil pressure and that filter bypasses are more restrictive than the oil filter feed is really speculative. As is how the filter center tube and element would collapse. 200+ psi would've likely blew out the filter can not to mention the gasket. That's what usually happens (or always) when oil pressure is excessive. I tend to believe this whole thing is a hoax.
The gasket did puke oil all over the place ... a clear sign that the can had very excessive oil pressure. The can can probably take over 300 PSI of pressure, but the base gasket will give out and leak before the can blows. I think in one of the FRAM training videos they show an over pressure test, and the gasket gives up around 300 PSI before the can bulges out or splits. From everything I've seen, I don't think it's a hoax at all. This is a case where the oil filter was extremely over pressurized.
Well you say that an oil filter bypass will allow a high pressure differential if oil pressure is excessive but that means the bypass is more restrictive than oil filter feed. I don't think it is. Filter bypasses are quite large and I'd say as large as the filter feed.
The filter's bypass valve in not meant to flow tons of oil flow. It's designed to flow some of the oil past the media when the media becomes restrictive enough to make the bypass crack open. In this case, if the oil pump pressure regulator failed, then the filter was hit quickly with a very large flow volume that crushed it within seconds ... there is no way a filter's bypass valve is going to save the filter in that case. Go disable your pump's pressure relief valve and fire up the engine with 35 deg F oil and see what it does to the oil filter. It will destroy it big time.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
All this talk about a failed pump relief valve, 200-300 psi of oil pressure and that filter bypasses are more restrictive than the oil filter feed is really speculative. As is how the filter center tube and element would collapse. 200+ psi would've likely blew out the filter can not to mention the gasket. That's what usually happens (or always) when oil pressure is excessive. I tend to believe this whole thing is a hoax.
The gasket did puke oil all over the place ... a clear sign that the can had very excessive oil pressure. The can can probably take over 300 PSI of pressure, but the base gasket will give out and leak before the can blows. I think in one of the FRAM training videos they show an over pressure test, and the gasket gives up around 300 PSI before the can bulges out or splits. From everything I've seen, I don't think it's a hoax at all. This is a case where the oil filter was extremely over pressurized.
And another thing, the inlet holes on a WIX are fairly big. It might be possible to press a rod down on to the end caps and bend the center tube. I'd believe that before believing oil overpressure led to overwhelming the filter bypass.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Those two pics of the filter marks don't look the same to me at all
Of course they wouldn't (I expected that) ... you've got it set in your mind this is all fake, so why would it look the same?
Those two pics of the filter marks don't look the same to me at all
Of course they wouldn't (I expected that) ... you've got it set in your mind this is all fake, so why would it look the same?
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
And another thing, the inlet holes on a WIX are fairly big. It might be possible to press a rod down on to the end caps and bend the center tube. I'd believe that before believing oil overpressure led to overwhelming the filter bypass.
If that was the case you'd obviously see damage/marks for that being done. I see no such damage on the guts of the filter. Someone would literally have to take a hammer to a rod and pound the snot out of the element. So that was done with not one mark being left on the bottom end cap or ADBV? Come on ...
Just face it, no matter what evidence there is you will always come up with some excuse or wild theory why it's a hoax. That's fine ... it's amazing how good evidence is always excused for some reason when people have blinders on.
And another thing, the inlet holes on a WIX are fairly big. It might be possible to press a rod down on to the end caps and bend the center tube. I'd believe that before believing oil overpressure led to overwhelming the filter bypass.
If that was the case you'd obviously see damage/marks for that being done. I see no such damage on the guts of the filter. Someone would literally have to take a hammer to a rod and pound the snot out of the element. So that was done with not one mark being left on the bottom end cap or ADBV? Come on ...
Just face it, no matter what evidence there is you will always come up with some excuse or wild theory why it's a hoax. That's fine ... it's amazing how good evidence is always excused for some reason when people have blinders on.
Read up:
http://www.aftermarketsuppliers.org/Councils/Filter-Manufacturers-Council/TSBs-2/English/88-3R2.pdf
http://www.aftermarketsuppliers.org/Councils/Filter-Manufacturers-Council/TSBs-2/English/96-2R2.pdf
http://www.aftermarketsuppliers.org/Councils/Filter-Manufacturers-Council/TSBs-2/English/83-1R2.pdf
http://ca.fram.com/sites/default/f/uploads/en/collapsedcentertubes.pdf
http://www.aftermarketsuppliers.org/Councils/Filter-Manufacturers-Council/TSBs-2/English/88-3R2.pdf
http://www.aftermarketsuppliers.org/Councils/Filter-Manufacturers-Council/TSBs-2/English/96-2R2.pdf
http://www.aftermarketsuppliers.org/Councils/Filter-Manufacturers-Council/TSBs-2/English/83-1R2.pdf
http://ca.fram.com/sites/default/f/uploads/en/collapsedcentertubes.pdf
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Well you say that an oil filter bypass will allow a high pressure differential if oil pressure is excessive but that means the bypass is more restrictive than oil filter feed. I don't think it is. Filter bypasses are quite large and I'd say as large as the filter feed.
The filter's bypass valve in not meant to flow tons of oil flow. It's designed to flow some of the oil past the media when the media becomes restrictive enough to make the bypass crack open. In this case, if the oil pump pressure regulator failed, then the filter was hit quickly with a very large flow volume that crushed it within seconds ... there is no way a filter's bypass valve is going to save the filter in that case. Go disable your pump's pressure relief valve and fire up the engine with 35 deg F oil and see what it does to the oil filter. It will destroy it big time.
You say this but this is just your belief not really backed up by real proof. I believe the filter bypass is not restrictive relative to the filter feed. I'll agree to disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
All this talk about a failed pump relief valve, 200-300 psi of oil pressure and that filter bypasses are more restrictive than the oil filter feed is really speculative. As is how the filter center tube and element would collapse. 200+ psi would've likely blew out the filter can not to mention the gasket. That's what usually happens (or always) when oil pressure is excessive. I tend to believe this whole thing is a hoax.
The gasket did puke oil all over the place ... a clear sign that the can had very excessive oil pressure. The can can probably take over 300 PSI of pressure, but the base gasket will give out and leak before the can blows. I think in one of the FRAM training videos they show an over pressure test, and the gasket gives up around 300 PSI before the can bulges out or splits. From everything I've seen, I don't think it's a hoax at all. This is a case where the oil filter was extremely over pressurized.
Oil filter cans have blown out before the gasket. But the fact he claims oil went every where isn't really proof positive he had excessive oil pressure since it requires trusting what this guy says. Your argument is that a blown and leaking oil filter seal will protect the filter can but a filter bypass won't protect a center tube from pressure differential doesn't really add up IMO. If you had 300 psi oil pressure outside the oil filter element, the filter bypass is going to provided for ~290 psi inside the filter element, so no excessive presure differential and no crushed element.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Well you say that an oil filter bypass will allow a high pressure differential if oil pressure is excessive but that means the bypass is more restrictive than oil filter feed. I don't think it is. Filter bypasses are quite large and I'd say as large as the filter feed.
The filter's bypass valve in not meant to flow tons of oil flow. It's designed to flow some of the oil past the media when the media becomes restrictive enough to make the bypass crack open. In this case, if the oil pump pressure regulator failed, then the filter was hit quickly with a very large flow volume that crushed it within seconds ... there is no way a filter's bypass valve is going to save the filter in that case. Go disable your pump's pressure relief valve and fire up the engine with 35 deg F oil and see what it does to the oil filter. It will destroy it big time.
You say this but this is just your belief not really backed up by real proof. I believe the filter bypass is not restrictive relative to the filter feed. I'll agree to disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
All this talk about a failed pump relief valve, 200-300 psi of oil pressure and that filter bypasses are more restrictive than the oil filter feed is really speculative. As is how the filter center tube and element would collapse. 200+ psi would've likely blew out the filter can not to mention the gasket. That's what usually happens (or always) when oil pressure is excessive. I tend to believe this whole thing is a hoax.
The gasket did puke oil all over the place ... a clear sign that the can had very excessive oil pressure. The can can probably take over 300 PSI of pressure, but the base gasket will give out and leak before the can blows. I think in one of the FRAM training videos they show an over pressure test, and the gasket gives up around 300 PSI before the can bulges out or splits. From everything I've seen, I don't think it's a hoax at all. This is a case where the oil filter was extremely over pressurized.
Oil filter cans have blown out before the gasket. But the fact he claims oil went every where isn't really proof positive he had excessive oil pressure since it requires trusting what this guy says. Your argument is that a blown and leaking oil filter seal will protect the filter can but a filter bypass won't protect a center tube from pressure differential doesn't really add up IMO. If you had 300 psi oil pressure outside the oil filter element, the filter bypass is going to provided for ~290 psi inside the filter element, so no excessive presure differential and no crushed element.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Oil filter cans have blown out before the gasket. But the fact he claims oil went every where isn't really proof positive he had excessive oil pressure since it requires trusting what this guy says. Your argument is that a blown and leaking oil filter seal will protect the filter can but a filter bypass won't protect a center tube from pressure differential doesn't really add up IMO. If you had 300 psi oil pressure outside the oil filter element, the filter bypass is going to provided for ~290 psi inside the filter element, so no excessive presure differential and no crushed element.
Go read the TSBs I posted links to above. If a filter's bypass valve always protected the filter from extreme inlet pressure and very high pressure differentials as a result, then there would never be a case of a blown up filter or a filter with a crushed center tube or crushed element. This obviously happens in the real world, otherwise there wouldn't be technical information about it. Go disable your oil pump's pressure regulator and see what happens.
Oil filter cans have blown out before the gasket. But the fact he claims oil went every where isn't really proof positive he had excessive oil pressure since it requires trusting what this guy says. Your argument is that a blown and leaking oil filter seal will protect the filter can but a filter bypass won't protect a center tube from pressure differential doesn't really add up IMO. If you had 300 psi oil pressure outside the oil filter element, the filter bypass is going to provided for ~290 psi inside the filter element, so no excessive presure differential and no crushed element.
Go read the TSBs I posted links to above. If a filter's bypass valve always protected the filter from extreme inlet pressure and very high pressure differentials as a result, then there would never be a case of a blown up filter or a filter with a crushed center tube or crushed element. This obviously happens in the real world, otherwise there wouldn't be technical information about it. Go disable your oil pump's pressure regulator and see what happens.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Read up:
http://www.aftermarketsuppliers.org/Councils/Filter-Manufacturers-Council/TSBs-2/English/88-3R2.pdf
http://www.aftermarketsuppliers.org/Councils/Filter-Manufacturers-Council/TSBs-2/English/96-2R2.pdf
http://www.aftermarketsuppliers.org/Councils/Filter-Manufacturers-Council/TSBs-2/English/83-1R2.pdf
http://ca.fram.com/sites/default/f/uploads/en/collapsedcentertubes.pdf
And in all those links it is repeatedly said that a malfunctioning bypass valve is necessary for a center tube collapse (and maybe along with oil overpressure). I only saw in one sentence that an improperly sized bypass can be at fault. Of course if the bypass is improperly sized it could be a problem. But improperly doesn't mean normal, common or regularly. Is this WIX's bypass improperly sized for this application? We have no real proof that it is.
So we have to believe this guy had system overpressure, an improperly working filter bypass, the filter element collapsed seemingly vertically, no real claim against WIX, etc. I tend to believe he tampered with the filter and it didn't actually fail in service.
Read up:
http://www.aftermarketsuppliers.org/Councils/Filter-Manufacturers-Council/TSBs-2/English/88-3R2.pdf
http://www.aftermarketsuppliers.org/Councils/Filter-Manufacturers-Council/TSBs-2/English/96-2R2.pdf
http://www.aftermarketsuppliers.org/Councils/Filter-Manufacturers-Council/TSBs-2/English/83-1R2.pdf
http://ca.fram.com/sites/default/f/uploads/en/collapsedcentertubes.pdf
And in all those links it is repeatedly said that a malfunctioning bypass valve is necessary for a center tube collapse (and maybe along with oil overpressure). I only saw in one sentence that an improperly sized bypass can be at fault. Of course if the bypass is improperly sized it could be a problem. But improperly doesn't mean normal, common or regularly. Is this WIX's bypass improperly sized for this application? We have no real proof that it is.
So we have to believe this guy had system overpressure, an improperly working filter bypass, the filter element collapsed seemingly vertically, no real claim against WIX, etc. I tend to believe he tampered with the filter and it didn't actually fail in service.
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