Winter Tires CR Report

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted by HangFire
I have studless General Altimax Arctic's (pre-12) on their 5th Winter but they are only about 4.5 years old. They were awesome when new but at 10K miles last Winter they suddenly lost their mojo on wet ice, no longer able to get up my steep driveway.
My Arctics are now 10 years old. Similarly, I think I remember noticeable drop in their winter performance after the first 4 - 5 seasons, despite still having most of the tread left. I'm way overdue for new winter tires. I thought I was going to ditch this car, so I was reluctant to spend money on new winter tires for it, but if I still have it come next winter, I'm definitely getting new winter tires for it.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by LazyDog
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by LazyDog
I currently have the General Arctic which are about 10 years old
No way I'd run 10 year old tires. Experts (NTSB, industry people, etc.) say tires must be replaced every 6 to 10 years, the recomendations vary. Rubber could begin to come apart on the road.

I've got a set of Michelin Xice3 tires, and they are quality, perform well. I'm surprised CR didn't score them higher. The Hakkapealiitta scored tops at Car and Driver recenty. https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/g23898710/best-winter-snow-tires/

I missed that part. Running 10 year old tire is hazard to everyone on the road.
I take mine off after 5, exceptionally 6 years from DOT.



If you only run your tires during winter months, you will be buying new tires every 4 years is this what you do???

The DOT 10 year is 2nd week of 2020, car is driven to train station 2 miles round trip.

I do replace my all season tires every 5 years but never gave it much thought about the winter tires which a run 4 months only every year.

Well on cars I drive, winter tires barely live to see end of second season considering mileage I put on them skiing (My Michelin Xi2 on Toyota are probably make some 12-15k this winter).
On my wife car, yes, they maybe make 2000 miles.
To answer your question: YES, once tire hits 5-6 year mark from DOT, it is out. I have 2 1/2 year old kid, one on the way and wife that I love, despite being my wife

I was test driver before, and while not working for tire company, had plenty of opportunity to understand how tires work, and how time works against them as well as hazards on the road. Tires are cheap, they are only thing that transfers power or brake force to the surface. They are most important thing that keep your head attached to your body!

 

[littlehulkster]

Honestly, don't worry about it too much. Just get what you can afford from a reputable company (do not cheap out and buy garbage Chinese tires, you WILL regret it if you live in a place with real weather) and as long as it's 3 peak mountain snowflake rated, you're probably going to be fine. Even the worst 3PMSF tire is better than the best all-season in the winter. I never really bought into the whole performance snow tire thing, as it's a really bad idea to drive quickly in the snow and ice no matter what tires you have. Think ahead, increase your distances and slow down and you'll be fine with snows on all 4 corners in anything short of the most severe weather.

 

[krzyss]

I have Xi3 and i do like them.
They are quiet, decent snow, ice performance. not bad for studless in dry and wet but I prefer performance winter in such conditions.


They last long time so they may not be worth it to you if you do not drive much.


Krzys

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Honestly, don't worry about it too much. Just get what you can afford from a reputable company (do not cheap out and buy garbage Chinese tires, you WILL regret it if you live in a place with real weather) and as long as it's 3 peak mountain snowflake rated, you're probably going to be fine. Even the worst 3PMSF tire is better than the best all-season in the winter. I never really bought into the whole performance snow tire thing, as it's a really bad idea to drive quickly in the snow and ice no matter what tires you have. Think ahead, increase your distances and slow down and you'll be fine with snows on all 4 corners in anything short of the most severe weather.


That does not have to do anything with snow. Performance snow tires were new thing some 20 years ago when H speed index was introduced for snow tires, primarily on German market. What that means is snow tires capable of high speeds in good weather without compromising integrity of tire.

 

[krzyss]

Performance winter tires excel in the most typical winter conditions. Dry and wet ;-)


Krzys

 

[theorist]

Lazydog, if you drive this little, you might consider one of the new all-weather tires like the Michelin CrossClimate+ or Vredestein Quatrac5. They have the snowflake twin peaks approval for dedicated winter tires but wear longer and provide summer performance comparable to all season tires. With only one set of tires, you could keep your rubber fresh without spending money replacing old but lightly worn tires.

I also recommend looking at the winter tire tests at tirerack.com, caranddriver, and perhaps tyrereviews.co.uk. Tyrereviews.co.uk compiles and summarizes tire tests from across Europe. I love it except it often makes me jealous when we sometimes can't get the same tires here in the US. In the US I don't think I've seen any tests of half worn tires. I agree that this is a top concern. For a sense of how they perform when they aren't worn I look at the user reviews, especially at tirerack.com.

I haven't had any of the three that you asked about but have driven the same General Altimax Artic as you, as well as the Michelin X-Ice Xi3 and Xi2, Blizzak WS80, WS70, & WS60, as well as a Good year, a Pirelli, a Dunlop, and GT Champiro. All we're much better than all seasons on snow or ice except the Champiros. For the price I liked the old Generals best, especially in slush, even though they were noisier than most others and not great on ice without studs. Overall I liked the Michelin best. I did find the Xi3 much quieter and found it great overall - wear, ice, snow, and dry.

If I drove as little as you is probably choose the Blizzak WS80 or coming WS90. Their I've traction is amazing ( until the are half worn), the WS80 is pretty quiet, and they group well in snow, slush and dry, ok in the rain. ( Most dedicated winter tires are hydrophilic for better ice and snow traction, while summer tires and many all season tires are hydrophobic for better wet traction.) Blizzak's be main disadvantage is that they wear quickly, but it sounds like that's not a big concern with your usage. The other thing I don't like about them is the turn in response is very poor due to the tread squirm, but I care more about that than most and run dedicated extreme summer tires when I can. I tell myself the tread squirm reminds me to not drive in the winter like I would in the summer on Michelin super sports or Bridgestone S04s. The Blizzak will grip in the dry when you need them too. Your car just loses its sporty responsive nature, if it had one.

If you want more responsive handling year round, I'd recommend the Vredestein Quatrac5 or Michelin CrossClimate plus.

Also, regardless of age I don't use winter tires for severe winter duty with less than 4 to 6 /32nds of an inch remaining tread depth. When they get that low I'll either unload them or use them as mediocre, noisy all season tires.

 

[mightymousetech]

Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Even the worst 3PMSF tire is better than the best all-season in the winter.



This is actually completely untrue.

I know a guy who is in charge of winter tire testing at Transport Canada. It is actually a big issue. A large portion of winter tires with the 3PMSF rating are worse than the top all seasons in winter conditions.

 

[flipb5]

I've been driving the Cooper Discovery True Norths past two weeks on a Subaru Outback. So far they have been great! Very quiet and after a couple of snowstorms here in Maine they are amazing in snow, ice, freezing rain. I highly recommend them! So much better than the General Arctics that I have on my Impreza. Make the switch.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by LazyDog
I was browsing through a Consumer Reports while picking some medicine. I have a 960 Volvo rear wheel drive that I run winter tires.

I currently have the General Arctic which are about 10 years old but only about 25k miles on the tires. I do like the winter performance on the snow, rain, ice but
they are noisy on dry pavement.

The top rated tires are
1. Cooper Discovery
2. Hankook winter
3. Continental winter contact

The Generals came in 6 place below the Michelin's.

Do you have any of the top 3 tires and can share your experiences.


Forget Cooper and Hankook.
Hankook especially! Take into consideration that these tests are only reference to new tires. Key is how that tire is going to perform after 10k or 20k.
Safest bet in the long run is Michelin, Continental and Nokian (though i a not that happy with drop in their performance after one season).
Anyway, stay away from Hankook!


Do you have any actual EVIDENCE of this?

 

[BJD78]

My Mom lived in Fargo ND and just kept winter tires on years round. Se rarely drove outside of Fargo city limits and was probably doing good to put on 5-7K miles on per year. Many people up there just run snow tires year round especially if they seldom drive in the heat of summer for long trips.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Jarlaxle
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by LazyDog
I was browsing through a Consumer Reports while picking some medicine. I have a 960 Volvo rear wheel drive that I run winter tires.

I currently have the General Arctic which are about 10 years old but only about 25k miles on the tires. I do like the winter performance on the snow, rain, ice but
they are noisy on dry pavement.

The top rated tires are
1. Cooper Discovery
2. Hankook winter
3. Continental winter contact

The Generals came in 6 place below the Michelin's.

Do you have any of the top 3 tires and can share your experiences.


Forget Cooper and Hankook.
Hankook especially! Take into consideration that these tests are only reference to new tires. Key is how that tire is going to perform after 10k or 20k.
Safest bet in the long run is Michelin, Continental and Nokian (though i a not that happy with drop in their performance after one season).
Anyway, stay away from Hankook!


Do you have any actual EVIDENCE of this?

Hankook? Had one of their winter tires on my vehicles. Safe to say worst winter tire that I have ever purchased. Had several Hankook tires on vehicles (not by choice in this case) and they were mediocre at best. But winter tires I had were really abysmal.
Nokian? Have currently R2 on Tiguan, and drop in performance from last season (when they made only 2k) is astonishing for a tire of that price. Just tells you that there are first tier manufacturers and then tire manufacturers that consider themselves first tier just because they overprice their product.

 

[MNgopher]

A Counterpoint: All tire manufacturers make some good tires and some bad tires. Since the previous poster is not sharing exactly which model of tire was the worst, I've ran two sets of Hankook Winter tires. One was the Ipike W409 and the am currently running a set of RW11's on our Explorer.

The RW11's are not quite as sure footed as the W409s seemed to be, but we find the RW11's to do just fine in most snow conditions from slush to crunchy dry fluff. They seem to have less lateral grip in hardpack and ice than the W409's did, but we still find them to be predictable.

For a relatively low cost tire, they do what they are supposed to and are wearing extremely well. They are leaps and bounds above regular all season tires.

 

[E365]

I've had the Cooper Discoverer True North on my Focus since late October. Zero complaints. I've used the Blizzak WS50, WS70 and WS80 on various cars over the last 10+ years.

Not that I've done a scientific, side-by-side test, but I don't think the Cooper D.T.Ns give up anything to the WS80. I'd say they're actually quieter than the WS80 too.

 

[littlehulkster]

Originally Posted by mightymousetech
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Even the worst 3PMSF tire is better than the best all-season in the winter.



This is actually completely untrue.

I know a guy who is in charge of winter tire testing at Transport Canada. It is actually a big issue. A large portion of winter tires with the 3PMSF rating are worse than the top all seasons in winter conditions.


The 3PMS symbol indicates that a tire meets a minimum level of traction in ice and snow, and there are a few all-seasons that have it.

The question I'd have is if this is true, why those tire manufacturers aren't getting their tires 3PMS certified, as it would be a marketing boon for them. Unless you're talking about the Vredsteins, Nokians and the like that have already done that.

 

[cb450sc]

Originally Posted by MNgopher
A Counterpoint: All tire manufacturers make some good tires and some bad tires. Since the previous poster is not sharing exactly which model of tire was the worst, I've ran two sets of Hankook Winter tires. One was the Ipike W409 and the am currently running a set of RW11's on our Explorer.

The RW11's are not quite as sure footed as the W409s seemed to be, but we find the RW11's to do just fine in most snow conditions from slush to crunchy dry fluff. They seem to have less lateral grip in hardpack and ice than the W409's did, but we still find them to be predictable.

For a relatively low cost tire, they do what they are supposed to and are wearing extremely well. They are leaps and bounds above regular all season tires.


I totally agree and have the same tires. I have the W409's on my Kia Optima. They have been excellent tires on snow, ice and slush. I purchased a set of RW11's for my Honda Civic. They are probably the worst winter tires I have purchased. They replaced an old set of tiger paws which provided better traction than the new tires.

 

[tomlct]

I bought Goodyear UltraGrip Ice WRT at the end of 2017, and I have used them in snow, but nothing very deep yet. I don't see them listed in that picture of the CR review, but I like them, and Goodyear has a similar offer going now, as when I bought them - rebates on the tires, and double the rebate amount if you pay with a Goodyear Credit Card. If you like Goodyears, the price after a doubled rebate might work out for you.

 

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted by littlehulkster
…… The 3PMS symbol indicates that a tire meets a minimum level of traction in ice and snow, and there are a few all-seasons that have it.

The question I'd have is if this is true, why those tire manufacturers aren't getting their tires 3PMS certified, as it would be a marketing boon for them. Unless you're talking about the Vredsteins, Nokians and the like that have already done that.


There are parts of the world where the Mountain/Snowflake symbol is not a marketing plus. I suspect this has to do with "Not Invented Here!", as the symbol is pretty much a Canadian/North American invention. So it is understandable why many all season tires might not be marked with the symbol.


Also, notice I fixed the first statement you made. Ice traction is NOT part of the testing protocol.

 

[OhioMazda]

Originally Posted by maxdustington
Originally Posted by Dave9
If we were only talking about straight, dry roads, and a grandma driver, then sure you can maybe eek out a few more years past 5 years but with an emphasis on "few".

This topic though, is the exact opposite when the expressed need is Winter Tires, snow, ice, rain performance.

Don't worry too much about "best" tire. Get the cheaper ones (this does not mean totally ignore test results but weigh them considering these are new tire tests) because you need to change your tires out more often, so cheaper will make you feel less of a loss doing so before the tread wears out.

Cheaper winter rated tires achieve good winter traction at the expense of wear. This makes them a bad value for someone who would wear them out in 3 years but in 10, not so much. Hardening of the rubber compound is your worst enemy. Change out your tires before that gets too bad. A good winter tire is a poor winter tire when it gets to be 7 years old. If you're a really conservative driver you may not wreck or get stuck but still, you're better off getting cheaper tires and not running them after the rubber hardens, and still being a conservative driver.
My snowies are a decade old and my car is a tank in the snow. I often drive too fast for the conditions, take corners fast , etc and get excellent grip wet, dry or in slush considering how old they are. I think one of the rears on my Dad's truck is thirty years old (original spare on a 88 GMC) and it gets heavy payloads from time to time.

Do new tires out perform old ones? Of course. Can anyone prove to what extent? Not that I have seen.
Are old tires more dangerous that new ones? Of course. Can anyone prove to what extent? Nope.
Do government safety inspections include inspecting tires for age? Not any that I have heard of.
Has anyone ever artificially aged tires to test them and settle this once and for all? No, and they never will.

No one will ever test this because the test results would cause less tires being sold. No evidence or government safety mandates = marketing wank that gets parroted constantly in mainstream automotive media.


Um, yes they have.

NHTSA

There are lots of variables that affect tire life, but 5 or 6 years is enough. Tires are wear items, and most people have completely unrealistic expectations about how long they should last.

 

[OhioMazda]

Originally Posted by mightymousetech
Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Even the worst 3PMSF tire is better than the best all-season in the winter.



This is actually completely untrue.

I know a guy who is in charge of winter tire testing at Transport Canada. It is actually a big issue. A large portion of winter tires with the 3PMSF rating are worse than the top all seasons in winter conditions.

Does Transport Canada publish these results? I want to buy some of these all seasons that are better than mediocre snows.