Wind Turbine oil frozen. HOW does this happen?

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Tempest, I don't think your view of the wind farm is accurate. True, there are some problem with cost and bird kills, but these windfarms are being updated (especially the Altamont, since I used to work next to it and it was in the news all the time).%
 
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1. During the study period, wind generation was:

* below 20% of capacity more than half the time;
* below 10% of capacity over one third of the time;
* below 2.5% capacity for the equivalent of one day in twelve;
* below 1.25% capacity for the equivalent of just under one day a month.

The discovery that for one third of the time wind output was less than 10% of capacity, and often significantly less than 10%, was an unexpected result of the analysis

And:
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4. The incidence of high wind and low demand can occur at any time of year. As connected wind capacity increases there will come a point when no more thermal plant can be constrained off to accommodate wind power. In the illustrated 30GW connected wind capacity model with “must-run” thermal generation assumed to be 10GW, this scenario occurs 78 times, or 3 times a month on average. This indicates the requirement for a major reassessment of how much wind capacity can be tolerated by the Grid.

http://www.jmt.org/news.asp?s=2&nid=JMT-N10561
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
1. During the study period, wind generation was:

* below 20% of capacity more than half the time;
* below 10% of capacity over one third of the time;
* below 2.5% capacity for the equivalent of one day in twelve;
* below 1.25% capacity for the equivalent of just under one day a month.

The discovery that for one third of the time wind output was less than 10% of capacity, and often significantly less than 10%, was an unexpected result of the analysis

And:
Quote:
4. The incidence of high wind and low demand can occur at any time of year. As connected wind capacity increases there will come a point when no more thermal plant can be constrained off to accommodate wind power. In the illustrated 30GW connected wind capacity model with “must-run” thermal generation assumed to be 10GW, this scenario occurs 78 times, or 3 times a month on average. This indicates the requirement for a major reassessment of how much wind capacity can be tolerated by the Grid.

http://www.jmt.org/news.asp?s=2&nid=JMT-N10561


When I've been involved in any wind studies, a test tower is installed for a while to find out what's there, how often, and then economists carry out a cost benefit of the location and decide to build or not build.

No-one puts hundreds of thousands of dollars of gear up then stands looking shocked at the lack of output.

Like your oil people do test wells before putting a platform there...although test wells are less than 20% successful (i.e. 80% of the time, the result is virtually nothing), so I guess that drilling isn't very useful either.
 
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Like your oil people do test wells before putting a platform there...although test wells are less than 20% successful (i.e. 80% of the time, the result is virtually nothing), so I guess that drilling isn't very useful either.

Do they keep pumping the dry well? Wind turbines are a dry well.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Tempest
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Whats not to like??

Massive subsidies.


Yep, all those battle fleets patrolling the shipping lanes, hundreds of thousands of soldiers defending the flow of the wind to the turbines, etc. etc.


I get it, but I think the objection was linked to the fact that it was suggested that wind generation = 7 cents per KWh. There is no way that is the actual cost. If the consumer is paying that, then there is a built in subsidy.
 
This is a pretty disturbing image -

tehachapi-wind-turbines-p1.jpg
 
e93c1c01a07f294258f9c575.medium.jpg

http://ludb.clui.org/ex/i/CA4977/

5000 turbines. I couldn't find the square miles of land that it consumes.

Many of them no longer work due to lack of maintenance:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/03/19/the-reality-of-wind-turbines-in-california-video/



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a new survey by Frontier Pro Services, reported on at Renewable Energy World, says that 60% of US wind turbines may be behind on maintenance. Apparently, there simply aren’t enough qualified technicians to do the work.

The main component causing downtown for turbines is the gearbox, which if it fails can cost 15-20% of the price of the turbine to replace. Furthermore, failure to monitor and replace oil as needed can lead to wear on bearing and gears, causing greater financial loses than simply replacing the part.

Frontier says that "when a $1,500 bearing fails unnoticed, it can lead to production loss and revenue loss including an unscheduled replacement of a $100,000 dollar gearbox and a unscheduled crane cost of up to $70,000 to access the failed components."

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/09/...maintenance.php
 
tempest, check where the 25yr/150,000 hour coal and nuke fleet are in terms of prescribed life and OEM scheduled maintenance.

Being "overdue" on prescribed schedules (designed by the OEM company to keep parts and maintenance dollars flowing) does not mean under maintained.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
tempest, check where the 25yr/150,000 hour coal and nuke fleet are in terms of prescribed life and OEM scheduled maintenance.

Being "overdue" on prescribed schedules (designed by the OEM company to keep parts and maintenance dollars flowing) does not mean under maintained.


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Recently, Sandy Butterfield, a former chief wind turbine engineer at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) in Colorado, was quoted as stating that the wind industry expects today's gearboxes to last 7–11 years. This markedly contrasts with the 20-year design lifetime of the wind turbines. And the implications for the industry are huge, since changing a gearbox is typically a lengthy and extremely costly exercise.

And:
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Except in a few cases of major turbine concept issues or gearbox defects, modern wind turbines gearboxes usually do not fail in the first few years of operation. Turbines in the 1.5–3 MW class have been built on the experience of smaller machines where gearbox failure was a chronic issue, and wind turbine and gearbox designs have been improved, allowing gearboxes to work properly in the first years of operation. However, inspections after 3–5 years performed on gearboxes of these large wind turbines usually show that major gearbox overhauls or replacements will be required in the next few years.

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2010/06/wind-turbine-gearbox-reliability
Now that article is all about solving problems, but gear box failures are a major problem with these things. This is with wind providing ~1% of our power. Can you imagine trying to maintain millions and millions of these over vast areas of land, in highly windy conditions?
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingston_Fossil_Plant_coal_fly_ash_slurry_spill

property rights of those who volunteered land versus those washed away ?

I remember that and it was very unfortunate. The story quickly went away since it was a government corporation that owned it. Seems like they tried to cover up known problems there.
http://www.beasleyallen.com/news/tva-schemed-to-avoid-blame-in-kingston-coal-ash-spill/

Seems some plants use a dry process and some a wet for fly ash. What are the advantages and disadvantages of these?
 
Another problem, and I think I mentioned this point previously, was the piting of bearings and gear teeth.

PAG synthetic lubricants are now being used in many gearboxes to reduce pitting.

The mechanical solution mentioned above makes sense in light of the fact that the transmission, for reliability reasons, should only transmit axial torque, and not be reqired to support off-axis mechanical forces.
 
Gear oils without EP additives have been found to greatly reduce the micro-pitting problems with wind turbine gear oils.
 
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Originally Posted By: Kestas
We are no strangers to the windmill industry. Our company supplies bearings to some of the applications. Here are a couple of facts that I've run across:

- The gearboxes step up the rotating speed 100:1 to run the generator. I imagine that this is where the machinery is sensitive to oil viscosity.

- The electricity produced by a windmill presently costs 1.5X the electricity from a coal-fired plant.

- Average lifetime for a windmill before serious repair or refurbishment is 6 years. They're shooting for 10 or even 20 years.

- Minimum wind speed for windmill operation is 10 mph. They are trying to push this down to 6 mph. Maximum wind speed is around 30 mph before they shut it down.

- Many windmills that break down sit idle because they aren't worth fixing.


Guys, I don't have time to read the whole thread, but a few mistakes and bad assumptions here. I was a wind turbine tech in Minnesota for a year and a half, working the buffalo ridge area. 1.) These are wind turbines, not wind mills. 2.) The production wind speed varies from turbine to turbine, as does the max speed. The S88 maxes out at 25 m/s wind and produces at 8 m/s IIRC. 3.) The turbines imported from California were very old models and had no heaters or insulation. All turbines sold by Suzlon in Minnesota contain heaters for the gear box, battery boxes and various other components. The refurb Cali turbines are also very low output as opposed to S88 turbines that produce 2.1 Mega watts. 4.) Turbines in Minnesota face a huge temperature and operating condition variance, and require very specific lubricants. 5.) All Suzlon turbines are sold with a 5 year warranty, with options for maintenance plans after that. Turbines are typically available for production 97% of the time, winds permitting. 6.) Those Cali turbines are several generations old. Its like comparing a 1975 Little Red Express to a 2006 Ram SRT10. Without getting too technical suffice it to say the technology and performance are orders of magnitude apart. 7.) Major components last varying times. Generator bearings are the most predictable wear items, the rest of it can vary tremendously.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Another problem, and I think I mentioned this point previously, was the piting of bearings and gear teeth.

PAG synthetic lubricants are now being used in many gearboxes to reduce pitting.

The mechanical solution mentioned above makes sense in light of the fact that the transmission, for reliability reasons, should only transmit axial torque, and not be reqired to support off-axis mechanical forces.


We used Mobil SHC 320
 
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P.S. The chinese were putting up gear box-less Turbines in Minnesota when I left....never did find out how well they held up. They looked weird, like a Stewie's head.
 
Originally Posted By: Kestas
I believe it costs $30K to repair some of these windmills.
That won't even pay for the crane service if you need to swap a gearbox, as a local yuppy run town found out when the gearbox went on the "town windmill" after the company which provided the warranty went under. They're looking at close to half a mil to buy a new gearbox in Germany, adapt it, and install it. No guarrantee it will run any longer than the year and half the current one did.
 
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