Why use thicker oil?

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Hello from Jersey again folks.

Question: Why do people use thicker oil?

I think the Jeep calls for a 5w40 or 10w40 oil; some owners have said they use 15w50. I understand using a thinker oil to offset an older engine's oil burning habit, & people use a thinner oil to to offset cold starting in the winter, but a thinker oil all the time? Im embarrassed to ask.

Just asking. I'm still a newbie. Thanks.

-A
 
It's a popular belief that thicker oils will maintain a thicker film at high temps than a thin oil will.

I don't pretend to be an engineer or chemist, but it's a mystery to me how oils as thin as 0W-20 or 5W-20 maintain a film at all considering how thin it looks when it's hot and pouring out the drain hole like water.
 
May quiet/smooth down a rough/noisy engine.

May reduce oil consuption on high-mileage engine.

May protect an engine prone to fuel dilution better.

May protect an engine operated a t high-rpms better.
 
remember the catchword: "May"....

Recall the SAE paper submitted by Honda Engineers RE: 0W20 on HOnda engines in late 90s (around 1998 or 99), Honda and a few other developments already working hard on using lower viscosity grade motor oil in the engine designs.

Also: due to technical progress made in IC engine developments during the past 20yrs or so (simply by looking at the rod/big end bearings and the materials it used will tell you a lot), improvements in manufacturing process, computerised engine control (which dramatically reduce fuel-related oil dilution/contaminations, more precise mixture control, etc.), etc. is what makes using "thinner" motor oil possible.

Unfortunately, avg joe on the street, as well as a lot of mechs are still falling behind in fully understanding this matter ....thus the urban legand remains.

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Q.
 
Originally Posted By: Quest
remember the catchword: "May"....

Recall the SAE paper submitted by Honda Engineers RE: 0W20 on HOnda engines in late 90s (around 1998 or 99), Honda and a few other developments already working hard on using lower viscosity grade motor oil in the engine designs.

Also: due to technical progress made in IC engine developments during the past 20yrs or so (simply by looking at the rod/big end bearings and the materials it used will tell you a lot), improvements in manufacturing process, computerised engine control (which dramatically reduce fuel-related oil dilution/contaminations, more precise mixture control, etc.), etc. is what makes using "thinner" motor oil possible.

Unfortunately, avg joe on the street, as well as a lot of mechs are still falling behind in fully understanding this matter ....thus the urban legand remains.

19.gif


Q.


It's no myth, I've seen the better protection offered by thicker oil first hand from my own teardowns. You're able to "get away" with thinner oils today due to the reasons you mentioned. It doesn't mean thicker oils don't protect better in some cases.
 
In one of AE Haas' pages:

"“Pressure and flow are tied together with viscosity, but none have anything to do with lubrication. Lubrication is a property of the fluid, not the force. The oil pump would pump water just as well, but it would offer no real lubrication. If we double the pressure, we double the flow. If you decrease the viscosity to a lighter oil, you increase flow at a loss of pressure. High flow helps to carry away more heat. High pressure helps to keep metal parts like the bearings out of contact with each other (scuffing).”"
 
Originally Posted By: Zhukov
In one of AE Haas' pages:

"“Pressure and flow are tied together with viscosity, but none have anything to do with lubrication. Lubrication is a property of the fluid, not the force. The oil pump would pump water just as well, but it would offer no real lubrication. If we double the pressure, we double the flow. If you decrease the viscosity to a lighter oil, you increase flow at a loss of pressure. High flow helps to carry away more heat. High pressure helps to keep metal parts like the bearings out of contact with each other (scuffing).”"


Take Haas' writings with a big grain of NaCl.

Quote:
High pressure helps to keep metal parts like the bearings out of contact with each other


They contain erroneous statements like the above.

Pressure increases the flow to a journal bearing, but once the bearing is full, additional pressure actually reduces clearance by a small amount. That is because the position that the oil is introduced to the bearing is the side away from the loaded side. It actually presses the loaded side of the journal and bearing together. That's not important because the pressure generated within the bearing by the hydrodynamic wedge is so much higher than engine oil pressure is, but it shows a lack of understanding on the part of the author of how hydrodynamic bearings work .

Quote:
The oil pump would pump water just as well, but it would offer no real lubrication.


1. Actually, an oil pump wouldn't pump water just as well. It would pump less because the lower viscosity water would leak internaly and external of the pump faster than oil would.

2. I doubt that I am the only engineer here that has successfully designed journal bearings that used water as a lubricant. They are neither rare nor rocket science.
 
I have used M1 15W-50 synthetic since 1990. Before that I used 5W-50 synthetic, before that I used 20W-50 conventional, and before that I used straight 40.

No one has been able to demonstrate any real world difference in gas mileage between a 5W-20 and a 15W-50. No one has been able to demonstrate that a XW-20/30 gives as much long term wear protection as a 15W-50. My Toyota with 300,000 miles, the Chevrolet with 207,000 miles, the Chrysler Van with 190,000 miles, the Pontiac Van with with 180,000 miles, the Saturn with 144,000 miles all say 15W-50 synthetic works really well. Living in an area where really cold is 8F and really hot is 102F also makes a difference. If I lived in a cold climate I would probably run a 5/10W-40, especially in the winter.

When I was going to college in Dayton, Ohio, back in the early 60's, it would often reach winter lows of up to -10 or so. Had no trouble with 20W-50 conventional but it was no where near the oil 15W-50 synthetic now is.

I suspect any XW-30 grade oil will take you to the 100,000 mile end of warranty. But when you have 200,000 to 300,000 miles and a screw into the spark plug hole compression tester shows compression pressure to still be withing +/- specs of a new engine, you got a good oil. Absolutely no engine noise or oil use between OCI is a great plus also.
 
Jeez. That means:

1) Choose a good name brand oil.
2) Choose a good filter.
3) Have moderately feasible oil changes.

Is that it? all the hub-bub is hogwash and just to pass time?

Huh.

-A
 
Hi,
regarding AEHaas's attributed comments such as;

"High pressure helps to keep metal parts like the bearings out of contact with each other (scuffing).”"

Mr Haas recently said that he places no importance on the HTHS viscosity of a lubricant. The statement above confirms his fallacy!
 
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Originally Posted By: Quest
remember the catchword: "May"....

Recall the SAE paper submitted by Honda Engineers RE: 0W20 on HOnda engines in late 90s (around 1998 or 99), Honda and a few other developments already working hard on using lower viscosity grade motor oil in the engine designs.

Also: due to technical progress made in IC engine developments during the past 20yrs or so (simply by looking at the rod/big end bearings and the materials it used will tell you a lot), improvements in manufacturing process, computerised engine control (which dramatically reduce fuel-related oil dilution/contaminations, more precise mixture control, etc.), etc. is what makes using "thinner" motor oil possible.

Unfortunately, avg joe on the street, as well as a lot of mechs are still falling behind in fully understanding this matter ....thus the urban legand remains.

19.gif


Q.
Do you have a link to this paper?
 
"Pressure increases the flow to a journal bearing, but once the bearing is full, additional pressure actually reduces clearance by a small amount. That is because the position that the oil is introduced to the bearing is the side away from the loaded side. It actually presses the loaded side of the journal and bearing together. That's not important because the pressure generated within the bearing by the hydrodynamic wedge is so much higher than engine oil pressure is..."

True, know fact.

aehaas
 
From a previous post:

I finally got to review an article:

Oil Flow in Dynamically Loaded Plain Bearings, April 2007, Ing E.J.M. Slaats:

I am still studying this bearing flow dynamics paper. But here are some initial observations:

They state that the oil hydrodynamic (HD) pressure is the sum of the oil feed pressure and the intra bearing HD pressure. Since the system feed pressure is so low compared to the HD pressure, the bearing Force is the same even with a system feed pressure of zero. This goes along with what I have said in the past. The oil pressure is not the determining factor for lubrication in a bearing. The effect is basically zero. The pressure only exists to move oil into the bearing as it is lost from the side of the bearing.

My comment - As long as the system pressure is 10 PSI for every 1,000 RPM then oil flow should be sufficient to keep the bearing wet in a properly working SI engine.

I cannot reproduce the equation here but see item 2.4.1. In order to keep the force, F, in the bearing a constant value while increasing the clearance, C, (more leakage of oil) you need to logarithmically increase the oil flow, Q. Note the multiple powers of the clearance, C, in the numerator. I also read this as a 1:1 ratio of force, F, to flow, Q. This is the best I can do to reproduce this equation:

Q Flow = nsides X FC/2u X (C/R)squared X 1/(B/D)squared X M

R is the bearing radius, B is bearing width, D is bearing diameter, M is the squeeze velocity, u the kinematic viscosity.

My point is that the oil pressure has nothing to do with lubrication or wear in a bearing.

Viscosity and film thickness are still important because of the spacing needed for dirt, soot and to keep the asperities separated. The paper did note that the combined roughness of the journal and bearing made oil film thickness a factor. But after the break in period, there was much less film thickness needed. They stated the roughness value for the bearing surface actually becomes zero so it is only the journal roughness that comes into play after this time period.

What goes against this is that many new cars are supplied with a thinner than specified oil grade than placed into the engine as OEM. Maybe they want a lesser film thickness than is needed during break in to help smooth the surfaces.

aehaas

More:

They infer that wear (of main bearings) does not occur under normal operating conditions. Wear occurs when the load and oil sump temperatures are high and even at high loads under low RPM situations. They repeat that wear is also a function of the start up period.

They state that when the hydrodynamic pressure increases under high engine loads the oil viscosity increases. This would of course contrast to the shear thinning of oil with bearing velocity. Oil viscosity is not only shear but also pressure dependent. They say film thickness increases with increassing peak pressures because of the Elasto-hydrodynamic behavior of the oil.

It seems they study only the effects of hydrodynamic lubrication. When the film thickness decreases, the additive packages of the finished oil lubricant come into play. They do not go into this aspect of lubrication and wear protection.

What is not explained is why there is start up wear. They state that as long as the film thickness is 3 times the roughness there is no wear. Yet the oil is very thick at start up (relative to operating oil temperatures) and there is the highest level of wear. This was not addressed in the paper.

aehaas
 
Hi,
aehaas - As I see it you cannot have it as a "bit both ways". In one Post you dismiss HTHS viscosity as a factor - above you endorse it!

When the automotive designers that represent their organisations on the Technical Panels of the API and ACEA and mandate minimum HTHS viscosities one would assume that they may know something about their subject!

And when bearing manufacturers who work with these designers as Suppliers and specify certain HTHS viscosity minimums - they would know something too?

Well I can tell you that they do and that the HTHS viscosity of engine lubricants has a very significant affect on engine duarability!

Using the correct lubricant as specified by the engine's manufacturer (preferably Approved and Listed) is a key ingredient in enabling the average person to achieve the maximum durability from their purchase
 
doug, how can I get to the HTHS requirement for my engine? I have never seen it required for my car, could it be inherent in the requirement for SM/ILSAC GF4 oil? THen again i see generally the HTHS being lower for lower viscosity oils (in general)
 
Hi,
crinkles - Yes it is inherent in the lowest viscosity lubricants specified for your engine

The ACEA Quality system's coding system is more transparent - eg A1/B1 should not be used where a A3/B3 lubricant is specified
They state clearly that "These oils may be unsuitable for use in sme engines. Consult owner manual or handbook if in doubt"

As an example an A1/B1 0W-20 viscosity lubricant will have a HTHS viscosity around 2.6cP. You will not find that viscosity lubricant with a A3/B3 ACEA Quality rating (3.5cP)

Where a Euro manufacturer has a minimum HTHS viscosity it will be spelled out in the need to use a A3/B3 (example) lubricant and internally. It is covered in the manufacturer's Approved lubricants List
 
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