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Royal Purple
German Castrol 0w30
Why the move to Group III?
- Thread starter Mystic
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German Castrol 0w30
Sorry George...not good enough.
I have freezer tested several GRP III /IV blends and they all appear to have very good cold weather flow characteristics - most notably Castrol Syntec 5w/50. Just think, a 50wt (50!!!) that flows well in the cold. I am sure it shears down as the miles pile up, so change it every 5k.
Most of Castrol's Syntec line is Grp III with small amounts of IV or V blended in (excl 0w30 GC). Perhaps Grp III's aren't all that bad when they have a little help from the IV's and V's. There are reports on this board of Grp III oils used in racing and we've already decided that Cosworth branded oil is part Grp III.
Maybe we are worrying over nothing. Just look at the used oil analysis of MotorCraft synthetic blends and full synthetics (GrpIII) - they look terrific!
BTW I am not a flaming Castrol fan, I use them in my examples because they were the first to do this PAO - Grp III switcheroo and are considered to be evil for doing so. I'm always looking to bust their chops by performing my own personal, albeit, very imprecise (my freezer tests for example)tests, even to the point of using their products in my cars and they are doing as good as the M1 was. Time will tell how all this boogie woogie blending turns out, but I will close with this thought: If anyone ever wanted to get into the lube oil business, there's a sea of people who DO care what goes into their engines and it someone based their whole company philosophy on GRP IV, V only, never to waver, they'd make it in todays marketplace. Cheers all!!
Most of Castrol's Syntec line is Grp III with small amounts of IV or V blended in (excl 0w30 GC). Perhaps Grp III's aren't all that bad when they have a little help from the IV's and V's. There are reports on this board of Grp III oils used in racing and we've already decided that Cosworth branded oil is part Grp III.
Maybe we are worrying over nothing. Just look at the used oil analysis of MotorCraft synthetic blends and full synthetics (GrpIII) - they look terrific!
BTW I am not a flaming Castrol fan, I use them in my examples because they were the first to do this PAO - Grp III switcheroo and are considered to be evil for doing so. I'm always looking to bust their chops by performing my own personal, albeit, very imprecise (my freezer tests for example)tests, even to the point of using their products in my cars and they are doing as good as the M1 was. Time will tell how all this boogie woogie blending turns out, but I will close with this thought: If anyone ever wanted to get into the lube oil business, there's a sea of people who DO care what goes into their engines and it someone based their whole company philosophy on GRP IV, V only, never to waver, they'd make it in todays marketplace. Cheers all!!
That's what the phrase "what the market will bear" means. If enough people decide that Mobil 1 isn't worth the money they charge, but that Chevron Synthetic is, then you can almost guarantee that Mobil 1 will be repriced similarly to Chevron Synthetic.
Mobil's big advantage is that for a long time, Mobil 1 was pretty much it as far as mass-market high performance oil was concerned, so it got a really good reputation.
Personally, I believe the proof is in the pudding; if someone figured out how to make a Group I oil that performed the same as a PAO/Ester oil, I'd think that there's no reason they shouldn't charge the same money as the synthetics do, especially if they can point at how they match the performance of the other oils.
In reality, something like that would probably be in the same price category as Pennzoil Platinum or Valvoline Durablend, not because the company feels that it's not worth the higher price, but because it'll sell better at the lower one.
Now we can stop picking on Castrol Syntec,Joe
I agree, let's base our decisions on the performance. If anything this should make us more objective when evaluating the performance.
Not to bust your balloon, but pour point depressants can (and do) lower the pour point of Group III fluids considerably. (And unadulterated Group III fluids with pour points lower than -50 deg. C. had been isomerized as early as 1996 according to Chevron's white paper, "The Evolution of Base Oil Technology".) Pour point is a "pour" (sorry) indicator of cold weather flow performance anyway since the test only represents the minimum measurable gravity flow over a five-minute period. (That's a flow more represenative of Silly Putty(tm) at room temperature - just try to start your engine if the oil won't flow any more readily than that!) A better qualifier of cold weather flow characteristics would be the lowest temperature at which the goo can be pumped - and you can take to the bank that it'll be a darned side warmer than -54 degrees F.
From the above link "Lubrication performance that previously was achieved only in small-volume niche applications, using PAO and other specialty stocks, is now widely available using the new generation of Group II and Group III oils."
Sure...but I still don't like being deceived. In that referenced article, the PAO formulation still have advantage, albeit a small one. You can buy for value, or you can buy the best no matter the cost. Here's a local price survey I did a few weeks ago:
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Castrol Syntec $5.52/qt $21.67/5qt-jug (Group III)
Mobil 1 $5.68/qt $21.94/5qt-jug
Mobil 1 Extended Performance $6.22/qt $27.52/5qt-jug
Pennzoil Platinum $3.97/qt $18.97/5qt-jug (Group III)
Shell Rotella T-Synthetic $19.95/5qt (Group III) =>$15.96/gallon
Super Tech Full Synthetic $12.34/5qt-jug (Group III)
For the Mobil 1 Extended Performance price premium, I expect a PAO based oil. For the Mobil 1 price premium over Pennzoil Platinum, I expect a PAO based oil. Shell Rotella T-Synthetic is group III based, but is an HDEO so I can accept the slight price premium over Penz Platinum. But Castrol Syntec AND the Mobil 1 products are just way outta line. Which I won't buy any of those two at the current pricing schedule until some concrete evidence convinces me otherwise.
Not to hijack the thread, but is it unethical to charge as much as the customer will pay? If M1 generates the sales and gross margin dollars that XOM has planned for it, then why let up on the price? If they lower the price to make equivalent gross margin on more units, they don't make as much $$ because there are more bottles to fill, more boxes to pack, more touches everywhere, etc.
I don't have to buy their product, nor does anyone else. But they have a huge investment in their marketing efforts, and apparently they have established the brand to the point that a large enough customer base will pay.
Another angle: Don't forget that your local retailer sets the retail you pay at the store. M1 may actually cost less now, but your local retailer won't lower their prices until necessary. Retail 101...
I don't have to buy their product, nor does anyone else. But they have a huge investment in their marketing efforts, and apparently they have established the brand to the point that a large enough customer base will pay.
Another angle: Don't forget that your local retailer sets the retail you pay at the store. M1 may actually cost less now, but your local retailer won't lower their prices until necessary. Retail 101...
Patman
Staff member
I'm glad I stockpiled a bunch of green GC!
I've still got 39L of it, and even when that runs out I can still buy the gold GC, which is still using a group 4/5 base oil.
At the same time, I do think that a lot of group 3 oils perform extremely well, which is why I decided to switch my wife's Honda over to Syntec 5w30. And Terry thinks very highly of Pennzoil Platinum, and I'd honestly consider running that oil in my own car someday.
At the same time, I do think that a lot of group 3 oils perform extremely well, which is why I decided to switch my wife's Honda over to Syntec 5w30. And Terry thinks very highly of Pennzoil Platinum, and I'd honestly consider running that oil in my own car someday.
Is it ethical to bamboozle the customer? If so, I guess the tobacco companies were the most ethical of all then.
I don't think the CEOs of large oil companies take ethics classes judging from the performance of many of them. They probably think ethics are old fashioned.
I will not use Mobil 1 again in the wintertime like I was doing unless Exxon/Mobil 1) lowers the price since they are now using Group III oil and it costs them less to make the oil; 2) the pour point is still low enough to justify spending more to use it in the wintertime.
How many people are there now at this web site? Well over 10,000. Those 10,000 people know many more people and the word is out Exxon/Mobil has gone back to Group III oil in Mobil 1. Remember that Mobil took Castrol to court when Castro called their Group III oil 'synthetic.' Well, the shoe is on the other foot now, right? Castrol won that court battle. They can call their oil synthetic. Well, fine, Exxon/Mobil call call Mobil 1 synthetic. But I don't have to buy it unless the 2 above conditions are met.
We have to live in a world where few people have ethics or even understand what it means to have ethics. Fine, they don't have to have ethics. But if they want to sell their products to me they better lower the price. And they better prove that their new product is as good as the old one. If I can get Chevron Group III synthetic for less than the Mobil 1 guess which product I am going to buy? The Chevron is probably as good as the new Mobil 1, don't you think?
I will not use Mobil 1 again in the wintertime like I was doing unless Exxon/Mobil 1) lowers the price since they are now using Group III oil and it costs them less to make the oil; 2) the pour point is still low enough to justify spending more to use it in the wintertime.
How many people are there now at this web site? Well over 10,000. Those 10,000 people know many more people and the word is out Exxon/Mobil has gone back to Group III oil in Mobil 1. Remember that Mobil took Castrol to court when Castro called their Group III oil 'synthetic.' Well, the shoe is on the other foot now, right? Castrol won that court battle. They can call their oil synthetic. Well, fine, Exxon/Mobil call call Mobil 1 synthetic. But I don't have to buy it unless the 2 above conditions are met.
We have to live in a world where few people have ethics or even understand what it means to have ethics. Fine, they don't have to have ethics. But if they want to sell their products to me they better lower the price. And they better prove that their new product is as good as the old one. If I can get Chevron Group III synthetic for less than the Mobil 1 guess which product I am going to buy? The Chevron is probably as good as the new Mobil 1, don't you think?
I am not accusing anybody of anything. According to what people have discovered (there was another similar post to this one) Mobil 1 is now largely Group III. I believe that some people have contacted Exxon/Mobil about this. Check the other post. If Exxon/Mobil is saying that Mobil 1 is now Group III than that must be correct. Heck, I will email Exxon/Mobil myself and try to find out for myself. How about if we all email Exxon/Mobil-go to their Mobil 1 web site.
Assuming that Mobil 1 is now Group III or largely Group III, and assuming that the price of Mobil 1 stays about the same or even increases, why should I not be willing to buy Chevron synthetic (which is probably Group III except for the 0W-30) if the Chevron synthetic is cheaper?
Why even bother with buying a synthetic for the wintertime anyway. If Pennzoil conventional will flow good enough in the cold I can use it for a lot less.
Assuming that Mobil 1 is now Group III or largely Group III, and assuming that the price of Mobil 1 stays about the same or even increases, why should I not be willing to buy Chevron synthetic (which is probably Group III except for the 0W-30) if the Chevron synthetic is cheaper?
Why even bother with buying a synthetic for the wintertime anyway. If Pennzoil conventional will flow good enough in the cold I can use it for a lot less.
Some cataloge numbers start with two digits if the are mineral oil or two different ones if they are PAO. I forget the numbers though!
I am going to hold off on my comments until I can find out for sure if Mobil 1 is in fact now a Group III. I want to know for sure Mobil 1 is now a Group III. But a guy in another post said that he tested Mobil 1 and it was Group III. And I believe that Johnny confirmed that Pennzoil Platinum is now a Group III base oil.
Perhaps a Group III can be every bit as good as a PAO synthetic. And the courts have ruled that a Group III oil can be considered a synthetic. But if a Group III base oil can be made a lot cheaper than a PAO I think the price of the oil should go down unless the cost of chemical additives has gone up. Perhaps a Group III synthetic could even be superior to a PAO oil. Who knows? We are not lubrication chemists.
If Mobil 1 still flows at very low temperature than it is still a good winter oil. On the other hand if the pour point is now much higher than it probably would not be as good of a winter oil.
First we have to confirm that in fact Mobil 1 has changed. There has to be some way to check that.
Perhaps a Group III can be every bit as good as a PAO synthetic. And the courts have ruled that a Group III oil can be considered a synthetic. But if a Group III base oil can be made a lot cheaper than a PAO I think the price of the oil should go down unless the cost of chemical additives has gone up. Perhaps a Group III synthetic could even be superior to a PAO oil. Who knows? We are not lubrication chemists.
If Mobil 1 still flows at very low temperature than it is still a good winter oil. On the other hand if the pour point is now much higher than it probably would not be as good of a winter oil.
First we have to confirm that in fact Mobil 1 has changed. There has to be some way to check that.
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