Why the big push to eliminate ICEs?

[sk_pete]

I just heard recently that an EV owner was charged 3-4 times the going rate for their plate renewal. They looked into it and were told it was because they didn’t pay road taxes that are on fuel. So some states are starting to think about that.

https://translate.google.com/transl...q_id=VtEs8i3clRq-202105242007&dop_id=11878226
it´s here

 

[ZeeOSix]

People don’t drive like they want to conserve gas now, even at $4/gal, and if an ev is driven like that the battery depletes faster. Then wait hours to recharge? Let’s say 15 minutes, it’s still too slow. People are in a hurry to get home and turn on Netflix.

Maybe they can just watch Netflix at the gas station while charging, or on the road with auto-pilot engaged. No need to be in a hurry.

 

[Rmay635703]

Solar is pretty useless for charging cars on weekdays when the cars are parked at employer’s parking lots. It requires a huge investment to provide chargers to all the parked cars.

It is not a huge investment to place 110vac in workplace parking for the
every place I’ve worked up here in the north has 110v outlets for block heaters and lots of 277vac light posts. Aka they already have the infrastructure,

“Stations” are completely unnecessary unless a large portion of your workforce has to drive around during the day as a part of their job and even then L2 will always cover local driving.

if you have an 8hour plus shift 110v can provide all your daily driving needs, maybe have to motivate companies to offer a buck a day of charging to their employees as a perk?
When we costed out a string of 110vac, it was only about $40 an outlet when you were doing a large string of them, seems much more reasonable than you would think.

 

[PandaBear]

Solar is pretty useless for charging cars on weekdays when the cars are parked at employer’s parking lots. It requires a huge investment to provide chargers to all the parked cars.

We have a lot of chargers at work, and they seems to be adding on average a couple a month. People do charge at work and right now I think they limit to 3 hrs per charge then they start costing more. Yes it will happen soon.

The bigger problem isn't really "charger is expensive" but rather, if you build too many too fast then the non charging lots would be full whereas the charging lot would be empty. You need to gradually build them up so you do not waste parking lot space.

I think ChargePoint and Tesla may pay for the installation and then make money off the charging rate (by the hours, I heard they end up around 26c/kwh which is actually a decent deal consider you don't need that big of a battery pack when you buy your EV if you can charge at work, and at home with EV-A / B rate you still need to pay 12c/kwh at midnight).

 

[PandaBear]

It is not a huge investment to place 110vac in workplace parking for the
every place I’ve worked up here in the north has 110v outlets for block heaters and lots of 277vac light posts. Aka they already have the infrastructure,

“Stations” are completely unnecessary unless a large portion of your workforce has to drive around during the day as a part of their job and even then L2 will always cover local driving.

if you have an 8hour plus shift 110v can provide all your daily driving needs, maybe have to motivate companies to offer a buck a day of charging to their employees as a perk?
When we costed out a string of 110vac, it was only about $40 an outlet when you were doing a large string of them, seems much more reasonable than you would think.

The problem isn't in the current load or 110v vs 277v. The problem is metering and safety / electric code / etc. You do not want to encourage employees plugging their cars into your 110v and eat into your facility load and have to pay for it.

Building a charger typically means someone (Charge point, wall street, Tesla, government, etc) pay for the investment then gets paid either by the hour or kwh, or vehicle sales. Typically they limit to 3 hours per charge at the moment but it is possible to make it longer or shorter depends on the demand. It is not a big deal and people are not losing loads of money unless they offer free charging.

Based on the duck curve above, work place chargers can eventually turn into a money maker if they don't overbuild (think of it as vending machines).

 

[wpod]

No one really need to vacation far away so lets ban commercial, passenger aviation . That will eliminate pollution greatly as well as the spread of diseases.

 

[wpod]

If vehicles existed that took straight crude oil into their "fuel" tanks to run, then yeah, you could call it organic. The process of refining crude into gasoline fails the organic test.

Ships run bunker oils and people complain how theynpollute.

 

[Snagglefoot]

It is not a huge investment to place 110vac in workplace parking for the
every place I’ve worked up here in the north has 110v outlets for block heaters and lots of 277vac light posts. Aka they already have the infrastructure,

“Stations” are completely unnecessary unless a large portion of your workforce has to drive around during the day as a part of their job and even then L2 will always cover local driving.

if you have an 8hour plus shift 110v can provide all your daily driving needs, maybe have to motivate companies to offer a buck a day of charging to their employees as a perk?
When we costed out a string of 110vac, it was only about $40 an outlet when you were doing a large string of them, seems much more reasonable than you would think.

I’ll go for that, and leave it alone, but I’d wonder I’d a guy would come, in excavate, install posts and underground wire and wire say 100 outlets for $4000. Plus you need 1500 Amps of 110 service.

 

[Rmay635703]

The problem isn't in the current load or 110v vs 277v. The problem is metering and safety / electric code / etc. You do not want to encourage employees plugging their cars into your 110v and eat into your facility load and have to pay for it.

Building a charger typically means someone (Charge point, wall street, Tesla, government, etc) pay for the investment then gets paid either by the hour or kwh

Based on the duck curve above, work place chargers can eventually turn into a money maker if they don't overbuild (think of it as vending machines).

Where I work we have our own substation and pay industrial rates (off book is about 6.5cents/kwhr)

I really see absolutely no reason why a company can’t have 110v @ 10
cents an hour as a free perk of working there.

This business of spending thousands to 10s of thousands of somebody’s money on a station is splitting hairs over a penny of electricity

I can understand charging for rapid charging but likewise see no reason you want to loose productivity having people leave work every 3 hours to switch spots

 

[Job]

Maybe they can just watch Netflix at the gas station while charging, or on the road with auto-pilot engaged. No need to be in a hurry.

If you choose Lounge Option on the EV order form, there you go.

 

[PandaBear]

I’ll go for that, and leave it alone, but I’d wonder I’d a guy would come, in excavate, install posts and underground wire and wire say 100 outlets for $4000. Plus you need 1500 Amps of 110 service.

Those outlet are likely just for block heaters, and likely will run only for a few minutes here and there to prevent starting problem, not to charge your EV.

 

[Skippy722]

While I agree that the grid needs rebuilding, I don't think it is as dire as "every EV will be doing a full recharge every night". Every ICE is not refilling their tank every day (outside of pandemic buying); I would have to think that a "smart" charger could simply be told when the car is needed, and then charge at a corresponding rate. For example, I get home at 6pm, plug in and set an alarm for 7am departure--the car knows I want the interior at 70F and fully charged by then, and it figures out how to do that for me. If that's a trickle charge for 12 hours, or a fast pulse charge at 3am, I don't care.

*

Does anyone know what the utilization of the grid actually is? I mean, when CA starts doing rolling blackouts, I'm not sure if that is the powerplants not keeping up, or the wires themselves overheating. Regardless: the wires (the grid we are discussing) can only pass so many amps. What is the typical percentage of usage, winter vs summer? Are we running at 90% already and thus have no overhead? or are we at 50% and assuming that it's just going to fault out?

It varies. Right now CAISO in California has plenty of supply available. But I’ve also seen them at almost 100% utilization.

http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/index.html

 

[Snagglefoot]

Wait for all the fun pranks with guys pulling the plugs on co-workers.

 

[PandaBear]

Wait for all the fun pranks with guys pulling the plugs on co-workers.

Most businesses have security cameras if they are going so far to put chargers in the parking lots. Most businesses also have a lot of policies to avoid getting sued, so you will likely see the pranksters fired these days.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Wait for all the fun pranks with guys pulling the plugs on co-workers.

Charging at work, for subsidized or even free, is a great perk. Generally, you have to move your car when it's charged, or you get dinged.
In Silicon Valley, "the ability to charge" comes up during employment interviews.

One VP bought a Leaf so he could use the commuter lane (something I disagree with). He told me he never charges at home.

 

[philipp10]

I understand the push to bring more electrics online, but I don't understand the push to eliminate ICEs so quickly. People are not going to convert overnight. The transformation will take decades, and some people will still want ICE powered vehicles. Why can't we have both?

Well it's not going to "take a push" much longer when the cost to own of EV's slips below the cost to own ICE. Then the lower cost car will win. As others say, "follow the money"

 

[eljefino]

Well it's not going to "take a push" much longer when the cost to own of EV's slips below the cost to own ICE. Then the lower cost car will win. As others say, "follow the money"

After rebates and tax incentives my Prius Prime came in at about the cost of a base hyundai elantra. I "could" just gas it and drive it like a regular prius but it came with a EVSE in the trunk...

But I think it'll be a while until a full on EV with 350-mile range matches this mark. 2030?

 

[Cujet]

Problem is that many utilities do not offer off peak rates,

We don't have off peak rates. Instead, we have a 750kwh monthly cap. Exceed that an the KWH cost skyrockets.

We pay 12 cents per KWH, HOWEVER when connection fees, storm mitigation fees, utility fees, universal tax, utility tax, sales tax and more are added in, the first 750KWH ends up between 18 and 22 cents per. Over 750, the KWH cost increases to 22, and the taxes follow suit, but the fees do not.

EV's have similar per mile costs at those rates, when compared to a Honda Accord hybrid or Camry Hybrid. But are absolutely less expensive than more muscular, conventional cars.

 

[philipp10]

1995: There is NO WAY power tools will ever become cordless and if they are, they will COST FAR MORE....
2010: There is NO WAY some guy with a weird name will ever be able to start up a battery car company....especially in California of all places...
2021: There is no way EV's will EVER be as cheap as an ICE car and the batteries WON'T LAST.....

 

[vw7674]

1995: There is NO WAY power tools will ever become cordless and if they are, they will COST FAR MORE....
2010: There is NO WAY some guy with a weird name will ever be able to start up a battery car company....especially in California of all places...
2021: There is no way EV's will EVER be as cheap as an ICE car and the batteries WON'T LAST.....

actually, cordless tools DO cost far more than a simple Skil corded drill from say, 1970. And they don't run for twenty-five years before getting scrapped.
And the battery powered cars HAVE been seriously subsidized to the point of absurdity.
And the battery tech allowing the non-fuel powered vehicles the range of gasoline/diesel/LPG are STILL NOT BEING BUILT.

The more things have changed, the more they stay the same.