Why the big push to eliminate ICEs?

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The problem is that if EVs become the norm the USA would literally have to rebuild almost the entire grid to handle the load.
Other than that you'd have numerous brown outs and related such problems.
Or charges different prices at different time. We don't have to rebuild the whole infrastructure to account for everyone flushing their toilets at the same time, we can handle this if we price correctly.

People will do all sorts of crazy thing to save 10c / kwh, or 20c / gallon.

As an example I was looking at the EV-A and EV-B PG&E rate in my area. The peak prices during 4-9pm is almost 47c/kwh whereas off peak from 12-7am is only 10c/kwh. Gradually I think if they price right the delta would be lower and the duck curve ramp less steep. (p.s. that rate is transmission plus generation, not just generation). People with large load will likely want to switch charging to that.
 
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Problem is that many utilities do not offer off peak rates, Duke doesn't here where I'm at. They are a huge company.
Even if you staggered charge times it will still be a huge strain on the systems. It still isn't enough to stagger, they will need to rebuilt most of the grid.
Or charges different prices at different time. We don't have to rebuild the whole infrastructure to account for everyone flushing their toilets at the same time, we can handle this if we price correctly.

People will do all sorts of crazy thing to save 10c / kwh, or 20c / gallon.

As an example I was looking at the EV-A and EV-B PG&E rate in my area. The peak prices during 4-9pm is almost 47c/kwh whereas off peak from 12-7am is only 10c/kwh. Gradually I think if they price right the delta would be lower and the duck curve ramp less steep. (p.s. that rate is transmission plus generation, not just generation). People with large load will likely want to switch charging to th
 
Problem is that many utilities do not offer off peak rates, Duke doesn't here where I'm at. They are a huge company.
Even if you staggered charge times it will still be a huge strain on the systems. It still isn't enough to stagger, they will need to rebuilt most of the grid.
Not yet. Just because they do not offer now doesn't mean they wouldn't in the future. Also they pay for variable rate either internally or externally because the load is not constant with or without EV anyways. There is no grid in the world that is constant 247 in both production and consumption.
 
While I agree that the grid needs rebuilding, I don't think it is as dire as "every EV will be doing a full recharge every night". Every ICE is not refilling their tank every day (outside of pandemic buying); I would have to think that a "smart" charger could simply be told when the car is needed, and then charge at a corresponding rate. For example, I get home at 6pm, plug in and set an alarm for 7am departure--the car knows I want the interior at 70F and fully charged by then, and it figures out how to do that for me. If that's a trickle charge for 12 hours, or a fast pulse charge at 3am, I don't care.

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Does anyone know what the utilization of the grid actually is? I mean, when CA starts doing rolling blackouts, I'm not sure if that is the powerplants not keeping up, or the wires themselves overheating. Regardless: the wires (the grid we are discussing) can only pass so many amps. What is the typical percentage of usage, winter vs summer? Are we running at 90% already and thus have no overhead? or are we at 50% and assuming that it's just going to fault out?
 
As far as ev’s being pushed and they are telling you what to do, what about SUV’s, is big brother forcing you to buy them as sedans are discontinued? No one is forcing anything. I don’t think ev’s are going to be as popular as people imagine. I know people and see people driving. They aren’t hassling with an ev.
 
As far as ev’s being pushed and they are telling you what to do, what about SUV’s, is big brother forcing you to buy them as sedans are discontinued?
That's an interesting though, might sedans becomes somewhat more prevalent again? Better aero so more miles per kWhr.

No, I didn't think so either. Oh well.
 
As far as ev’s being pushed and they are telling you what to do, what about SUV’s, is big brother forcing you to buy them as sedans are discontinued? No one is forcing anything. I don’t think ev’s are going to be as popular as people imagine. I know people and see people driving. They aren’t hassling with an ev.


The crossovers today get very good fuel economy.
 
Your EV has programmable charging. Set it for 10:00 PM, midnight, whatever.
Many people charge at work. There are options.
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As far as ev’s being pushed and they are telling you what to do, what about SUV’s, is big brother forcing you to buy them as sedans are discontinued? No one is forcing anything. I don’t think ev’s are going to be as popular as people imagine. I know people and see people driving. They aren’t hassling with an ev.
If big brother actually outlaws the sale of new ICE vehicles at some point in time, then I'd call that pushing people to buy an EV instead. If big brother outlawed the sales of everthing but SUVs, then that would be a move to push people to buy SUVs. Lots of laws have been made to essentially push society in certain ways.
 
If big brother actually outlaws the sale of new ICE vehicles at some point in time, then I'd call that pushing people to buy an EV instead. If big brother outlawed the sales of everthing but SUVs, then that would be a move to push people to buy SUVs. Lots of laws have been made to essentially push society in certain ways.
Essentially they are with increasingly strict emissions regs..I personally have less than zero interest in gimmicky EVs.
 
The problem is that if EVs become the norm the USA would literally have to rebuild almost the entire grid to handle the load.
Other than that you'd have numerous brown outs and related such problems.

Texas has been converting all houses to electric heat

Those use about 10x-50x what a typical EV uses.

Me thinks we need to choose other battles to start with as there are lots of poor decisions being made every day that will have much more adverse affects on the grid than a couple percent annual increase in plug ins.
 
I remember the concern of EV charging back in the late 90s early 2000s. Basically if everyone uses EV the grid will fry, etc. This is before duck curve or smart meter comes along, and we haven't gotten rolling blackout or deregulation yet at the time. The peak electric consumption was 1pm-7pm due to AC.

Then we have solar power, and then duck curve, and LED / CFL bulbs, LCD monitors, etc. All of a sudden we now have duck curve and negative electric rate in the middle noon once in a while. In the end the grid will be forced to go from fixed rate to time of use rate. People will likely charge based on time and how low their battery is, and not just plug it in at 5pm and charge from 20% to 80% every day.

Eventually they will either have a small battery with ice engine (so they can drive with gas if rate is high) or have a large enough battery that they will skip charging for a few days. Something will work out, by pricing things appropriately.

Imagine how much people were overpaying for the grid that isn't used to the max at all time, or how much extra generation capacity people were paying that aren't used most of the time. Eventually things will work out.
 
Does anyone know what the utilization of the grid actually is? I mean, when CA starts doing rolling blackouts, I'm not sure if that is the powerplants not keeping up, or the wires themselves overheating. Regardless: the wires (the grid we are discussing) can only pass so many amps. What is the typical percentage of usage, winter vs summer? Are we running at 90% already and thus have no overhead? or are we at 50% and assuming that it's just going to fault out?

The first rolling blackout wave was here because Enron bid for all the grid bandwidth and not use it (it wasn't illegal), so basically the power plants couldn't transmit power into CA, causing rolling blackout.

The second rolling blackout wave was here because of forest fires. PG&E was slacking off trimming trees and they sparked fires during fire seasons. This lead to PG&E going bankrupt again (after being bankrupt by Enron's sabotage). Now in bankruptcy, they do not have any money left to be sued so they just shut down the grid along fire hazard when the wind is strong, this is not because over consumption, and definitely not EV related. However because we shut the rural grid down we know we will not have bad rate or rolling blackout in the urban area.

I do not have the typical usage chart but in California the climate is all over the place, even within the same city (search San Francisco micro climate). We have different kinds of electric rate like tier based (first 300kwh is cheaper then the next would be more expensive, etc), and time of use based which is flat price regardless of how much you use but different prices at different time. Then they have these program like Smart AC where you let them shut down your AC or charge you high price at peak hours 15 days a year when they predict high demand, and in exchange you get 2c cheaper all across your rate the entire year except this 15 days peak hours.

EV users are told they need to use the EV based rate, which is time of use. As a reference during peak duck-curve hour it would be 47c/kwh between 2-9pm but 12c/kwh from 12am-7am. Something like that.

Enron is the reason I believe we should diversify our generation instead of single source, and we should diversify our engine choice too. If only nuke or NG is used then you bet once in a while we will have stability or pricing problem. I would like to keep some coal plants alive to keep the other guys honest, just in case.
 
And here are two actual duck curves from 2020. Solar is pretty useless for charging cars on weekdays when the cars are parked at employer’s parking lots. It requires a huge investment to provide chargers to all the parked cars. Yes, bring on the discussion on batteries and other very expense technology to fight the issue that the sun does not shine at night. Right now that row of chargers at the mall is mostly posturing. For the home owner who is selling his daily production to pay for power at night it’s just a cop out. That car is being charged mostly by natural gas sourced power production. It’s only on the weekend when it gets a good truly solar charge. Guess I’m going to hear it from the Teslacians. ;)

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Charging people for road use by the mile strikes me as a moral hazard that will benefit larger, less efficient vehicles if not carefully designed. Road wear goes up to the fourth power of axle weight, so something just a little heavier will tear up the roads twice as much.

That's why they should be taxed by electricity consumption, as a heavier EV will use more power to travel the same distance as a lighter one. It's the equivalent of taxing by gallon or litre, as bigger, heavier vehicles are more thirsty. The problem is implementing this in a way that's consistent. If somebody is charging at home, the electricity used to charge the EV is the only electricity that should be hit with the road tax, so it would need to be implemented on the charge plug, or on the vehicle itself. It should be relatively easy to integrate that fee into public charging infrastructure, so it's really whether the car logs the overall kWh or if it is done at point of charge.
 
Time of Use was mentioned.

TOU was implemented, including here in Ontario, to encourage load-shifting. If consumers could be incentivized to consume less during the day and more in the evening when surplus power was available this avoided:
- Spillage at hydro dams
- Turning down baseload plants
- Steaming-off at nuclear plants
- Increased peaking capacity required during the day

This was all well before the talk about EV's. The idea was that if you could manipulate the consumer side of the demand curve by using different price tiers that you'd avoid having to invest in more peaking capacity as well as save money by avoiding wasted generation potential.

People started doing their laundry in the evening, letting their house get hotter during the day (AC running less) or colder (furnace running less) when they weren't home. They'd let their dishes run at night. Some people would go as far as moving dinner to off-peak so they weren't running their oven when it was expensive.

Then, many things happened:
- Financial collapse, which resulted in a loss of industry and thus some of the baseload consumption
- "Green Energy" push/recovery, which incentivized private investment via feed-in tariffs and large renewable procurement contracts, which drove-up rates
- The installation of intermittent wind, which produces out of phase with demand
- The installation of intermittent solar, which depresses daytime peaking requirements, but creates sharp morning and evening curves, requiring fast-ramp gas capacity

This has complicated things.

While solar has a, generally, pretty predictable impact on the demand curve, at high penetration levels it starts biting into baseload, which runs contrary to the whole premise of what was trying to be achieved with TOU. Having to shutdown baseload generators during the day is just as problematic as shutting them down over night. This is why utilities are looking at, and in some instances, implementing, the ability to curtail solar (residential and commercial), because no other generator has the privilege of being able to dump power on the grid and have the rest of the grid contort around it.

Wind doesn't provide peaking capacity. It's the windiest when demand is only moderate so it is displacing, in the best-case scenario, fossil baseload like gas or coal. However, when you get a heat wave or cold snap, it tends to collapse, so you still need to have maximum peak capacity available and that capacity will command a higher price to make up for its displacement. This is why the average rate has gone up, even as wind procurement price has come down. Wind has very little capacity value, so in a market system, when it bids in at $0.00 to receive the maximum share and benefit from the required rate set by the bids from fuelled generators and that day's peak demand is say 15,000MW, with wind making up 1/3rd of that, the wind farm owners make a profit. When you get a heat wave and wind disappears, gas capacity steps-in. Since wind is unable to bid-in super cheap, because it isn't available, the market rate gets run up very high, driven by generators which are only used during these events and since more capacity is required in these scenarios, say it's a 25,000MW peak demand day, the overall impact on rates is an upward shift. No market participant is going to keep a generator in play that can't make money, so this is a bit of a naturally balancing situation. Where things get a bit muddy here is renewable procurement subsides and other financial transfers that happen outside the market system, but that's outside the scope of this critique.

In non-market systems or pseudo-markets like we have here in Ontario where generators are on fixed-rate contracts, wind contract holders are rewarded for "potential" kWh, that is, that even though their capacity can push the market price negative, they are rewarded full contract price for output that is accepted and output that is avoided. This of course drives up consumer rates to cover those contract costs.

This totally screws with the TOU concept because now you aren't dealing with an organic generation/demand profile that can be easily manipulated with structured rate shifting. As you increase wind capacity you end up with massive amounts of generation showing up at odd times. As this starts to eat into baseload, that capacity gets replaced by more flexible peakers that command a higher rate. This will likely get very exciting as we see wind penetration levels increase and baseload generators become uneconomic and retired. We saw bits of this during the Texas blackout, had the generator freeze not happened, more capacity would have been available, but the impact it had on market price was tremendous. Generators that could participate commanded obscene rates, which will become more commonplace as wind penetration increases and the generation side of the curve becomes more sporadic.

We've got two things going on here:
- A push to electrify everything, including transport with EV's, which will drive up demand, requiring more capacity and will stress resource availability
- A push to increase the penetration of wind and solar, which by definition, particularly with wind, increase the variability of the generation side of things, requiring more moving parts and changing the overall makeup of the grid, moving it away from reliable baseload generation sources and toward fast-ramp gas to be able to juggle that variability. Storage, in small amounts is being explored to try and help with FCAS (in most cases) with this, keeping frequency in check, but at a cost of course.

I"m fascinated to see how this plays out as governments push the utilities to install more VRE and retire traditional capacity. I expect we'll see a pull-back from the eagerness to install wind at some point once a tipping point is reached as well as some sort of settling on a limit for solar capacity for a given system.

What we've learned here in Ontario is a very expensive lesson what not to do.
 
As far as ev’s being pushed and they are telling you what to do, what about SUV’s, is big brother forcing you to buy them as sedans are discontinued? No one is forcing anything. I don’t think ev’s are going to be as popular as people imagine. I know people and see people driving. They aren’t hassling with an ev.
So what you think of Honda's statement that they will be EV only by 2040? Do you think they will be shooting themselves in the foot if they actually stick to this? I do...
 
So what you think of Honda's statement that they will be EV only by 2040? Do you think they will be shooting themselves in the foot if they actually stick to this? I do...
I think it’s talk. 2040 is further out, 19 years. I think people are already dumb with gas cars, many barely know enough to buy gas let alone look at a charging program. Maybe thats cynical. I think they would be shooting themselves in the foot but won’t because Honda is aware of buying trends. if there are drive up chargers like gas stations, in and out, and fail safe batteries that require no thinking whatsoever, maybe they will be the dominant play. People don’t drive like they want to conserve gas now, even at $4/gal, and if an ev is driven like that the battery depletes faster. Then wait hours to recharge? Let’s say 15 minutes, it’s still too slow. People are in a hurry to get home and turn on Netflix.
 
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